It seems many believe that the reason 9/11 happened is due to the CIA missing the weekly terrorist update meeting with bin Laden. Obviously there were lapses in communication and things that should have been done better (and will be done better), but I would also surmise that there are many instances where we don't (or wouldn't want to) know about where they have done their job. There appear to be many groups that have it in for the US, yet (other than 9/11) there have been few successful attacks on our soil. Then again, maybe I just watch too many movies... ;)

[/QUOTE]Even if sky marshals had been on those flights, would it have mattered? The official policy was to cooperate with hijackers, and I sincerely doubt that the marshals would have prevented the events that day.

If I can figure that much out, then they are failing miserably at their job of being undercover federal cops. And quietly outing them inflight doesn't endanger national security, it merely points out to them their incompetence and the incompetence of their leaders. Either stay undercover or wear uniforms and introduce each one preflight.[/QUOTE]

As I said, they certainly could be less conspicuous, but what are we to do? Remove the air marshalls, maybe the locks on the cockpit doors while we are at it (that, after all, surely increases fuel costs which we ultimately bear)? Maybe during the safety briefing the FAs could discuss ways to disarm terrorist hijackers??? It wouldn't take much to add a page to the safety card illustrating a few helpful judo moves, right?

I assume that over time better methods will be developed, but at least proactive steps are being taken. I personally think that one of the benefits to the air marshall is that they act as a deterrant to would-be terrorists (not just as a means of in-flight defense). Maybe not, but are there better ideas? Anyone?


[/QUOTE]I wish September 11 had never happened either (along with every other loyal American). But IMO, the dramatic expansion of the sky marshal program in the days that followed will have very little to do with whether it ever happens again. Your mileage, and beliefs, will, of course, vary. :)[/QUOTE]

I just hope that we do not become so forgetful as to allow them the chance to do such a thing again.

Sillieness??? If we would have had the foresight to install some of the safety precautions prior to 9/11, maybe thousands of lives would have been saved. Maybe ten thousand kids would not have lost a parent. Sillieness... I think I'm going to be ill... How easily we have forgotten if these things now seem silly.

1) Not sure but if the answer is yes I imagine it's a little bit of a disadvantage for undercover officers trying to infiltrate drug or mafia gangs.

2) I'd say 99% of customers don't know or care who the FAM is. They're only really obvious if you rush on the plane first to try and spot them.

3) I don't think the Founding Fathers covered this eventuality when writing the US Constitution. I'm not sure but I would guess more people have been injured opening emergency exits than by FAM's firearms accidentally discharging.

Q. If the FAM's gun had accidentally touched you would we have been subjected to a 10 page thread about "FAM Revolver Rape?"

I'm not going to enter into a debate on the TSA/FAMs and constitutional rights in the US as there are some strong opinions on FT that are unlikely to change. I believe they act as some form of deterrent although no system can be 100% effective. If ensuring people can't wander willy-nilly onto planes unchecked means it takes a little longer to get to sit on uncomfortable seats at the gate then so be it.

Personally, I view the whole security process in the same way as the safety announcement
1) Neither is likely to save my life if the sh*t really hits the fan.
2) It only takes up a small portion of my travel time e.g. I'm much more concerned about my seat allocation.
3) It gives comfort to the travelling masses and assuages the nervous fliers and their spouses (if flying United).
4) It's part of the travel routine so I tend to switch off and don't let it get to me.

Also, like most things in life a little civility/humour helps in dealing with the TSA. If you go up to them with a "Grrrr, you're infringing my constitutional rights" attitude, and get your heckles up over every little request they make, then you'll help ensure it's an unpleasant experience.

All of these measures are an illusion and I do think silly
 

If anyone believes for one second that we are safer because we have FAMs on board or because they now don't shut the curtain between F, J and cattle, then you are fooling yourself.
The reality is that after almost 3 years since 9/11, we as a people, have accepted the norm that longer lines at airports and FAMs are going to make us safer.
Until we demand for authorities to do their job more efficiently and intelligently (and that means sharing meaningful information among agencies in charge of doing so) we will continue to be at risk of another such attack.

The current administration has sold to us that they are doing a great job, and at the same time have taken away some basic rights and most of us believe it is necessary because of security. Well as they say here in the UK, that is a whole bunch of bullocks serve to you on plate of illusions.

At the same time, I'd say, don't get carried away by trying to prove a point on a plane with and FAM or an FA. Make your vote count in the next elections in November and start asking for real change now, before it is too late.

[moderator hat on]

As this topic has no direct relevance to AA and AAdvantage, it will be transferred to a more appropriate forum.

[moderator hat off]

Just because as a frequent flier you think you can tell the difference between the regular passengers and the FAM's doesn't mean that everyone can.
Do I sometimes resent the FAM's presence, maybe. That's usually due to the ones who want to eat and drink everything in sight and the ones who give the 45 minute briefing when I want to set up my galley. Do I appreciate the fact that they may be able to save me in the even of an emergency, yes.

Outing the FAM is a pretty stupid thing to do. What can you possibly hope to accomplish by doing this other than to bring a bunch of unwanted trouble to yourself?

forget this I posted it in the wrong spot

It is how we express our opinion that they and their guns do not belong in the premium cabin, much less even on the aircraft.

If I worked for AA, not only would I resent these freeloaders telling me how to work my flights, I'd also be livid that they were stealing seats that should go to paying/upgrading passengers! :mad:

If an FF can spot a FAM then so can a terrorist. If they are "outed" enough times they may actually start to be inconspicuous.

It's simple logic.

Especially since, if they are spotted, they can be assaulted first. I am no expert in head trauma, but I think a nice-looking terrorist getting up, taking a full, heavy bottle of Champagne and smashing it quickly on the head of the unsuspecting FAM while another nice-looking terrorist is trying to loiter near the loo (getting the attention of the FAM) will probably take him down or inconvenience him enough for the terrorist to have the upper hand.

So not only can they remove the obvious police presence :(, but they can get a weapon to boot ! Without the hassle of smuggling it though screening/baggage check :mad:

I know these guys are probably trained in hand-to-hand fighting, but don't the terrorist, too ?

The FAM's I have worked with agree with you - it's the dress code, often, that outs them. The last FAM on my flight blamed the current administration's desire for a "return to civility" - he'd rather be in jeans and sweats like the rest of the passengers, blending in and all.

Just to reiterate what some others have said: even if you think you know who the FAM's are, think about what you're doing before you out them. Whether you think they're necessary or not is of no matter - they're there to do a job, and outing them puts them (and the rest of us) in an extremely vulnerable position. They simply cannot perform their duties effectively if their cover is blown - and what do you gain by figuring it out? The smug satisfaction of knowing a secret? An ego boost? Let's play like adults and keep sensitive information (that is probably not even accurate) under our hats, k?

Actually i would just assume the terrorists would simply claim to be sky marshalls themselves. My guess is 99 of the 100 will cooperate and the one that challenges them will be shot and identified as the terrorist to the other pax.

rich

Your FA's and pilots know who the FAMs are...unless they've killed the cabin crew, it wouldn't be this simple. (And if they have, then who is going to believe them to be FAMs?)

That's a lot of work as opposed to a quick Mont Blanc to the eye or temple. ;)

No.

Your post presumes their presense is a positive thing.

I and many others maintain it is not; air marshals and guns make the cabin less safe.