TSA Lying or Misleading Pax?
Jul 24, 2011, 4:20 pm
#16
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A well-informed populace is not something the TSA or "security" apologists generally fancy. That the TSA would lie or otherwise mislead passengers or the broader general public, well this would be par for such course of their own making.
Jul 24, 2011, 4:20 pm
#17
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 82
[QUOTE=WIRunner;16788532]"When I go to the dentist, I get a lead apron. Here I get a 'Raise your arms and stay still' I'll pass."
QUOTE]
Yeah, last time I was at MSP I specifically asked for a lead drape to protect my reproductive organs. At first they didn't understand what I was talking about, then when I continued to point out that every time I've ever had xrays taken (and as a bone cancer survivor, I've had plenty), the technicians were careful to protect my ovaries from the radiation with lead. ("You know, like, at the dentist??") They were still confused, but then managed to come up with something about it being "not necessary".
Sigh...
QUOTE]
Yeah, last time I was at MSP I specifically asked for a lead drape to protect my reproductive organs. At first they didn't understand what I was talking about, then when I continued to point out that every time I've ever had xrays taken (and as a bone cancer survivor, I've had plenty), the technicians were careful to protect my ovaries from the radiation with lead. ("You know, like, at the dentist??") They were still confused, but then managed to come up with something about it being "not necessary".
Sigh...
Jul 24, 2011, 4:41 pm
#18
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 733
<snip>
I would say that there is no scientific question whether the MMW systems, especially given their dose/wattage, could cause health effects in humans. If you have ever used a cell phone or a microwave oven, you have placed yourself in far more 'danger' than the MMW systems the TSA uses. In all likelihood, any studies on the MMW systems would show that they are actually safer than the WTMDs, which can interfere with pacemakers, etc.
I would say that there is no scientific question whether the MMW systems, especially given their dose/wattage, could cause health effects in humans. If you have ever used a cell phone or a microwave oven, you have placed yourself in far more 'danger' than the MMW systems the TSA uses. In all likelihood, any studies on the MMW systems would show that they are actually safer than the WTMDs, which can interfere with pacemakers, etc.
However, from a public health perspective, we simply don't have any idea whatsoever of the long-term human health effects of these machines. It may very well be nothing.
Absent this information, from tests conducted by respected 3rd party, peer-reviewed labs on actual machines, it is irresponsible and reckless to demand sending an entire population through these machines just to "see what we can see."
A strip search is a strip search no matter how it is rendered.
Jul 24, 2011, 5:03 pm
#20
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 361
If such signs exist, stating that sound waves are used, we need a photo to document the lie.
Jul 24, 2011, 6:23 pm
#21
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
Don't know if this has been asked before. Everyday, millions of people submit to MRI's. Huge money is made off that technology. Is it certified safe? Which one is more dangerous? I'd really love to know the answer. Every time a soft tissue injury is suspected, they tell me an MRI is the only option. I guess for those who travel weekly, these radiation exposures get to be a serious matter. But what about those of us who travel a maximum of once a year? Look at those guys who enter Fukushima Daichi. They are probably getting ten thousand times as much radiation.
Jul 24, 2011, 6:34 pm
#22
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 230
Ultrasound is so safe it is the preferred, harmless techniques to study fetuses. Yet we also use ultrasound to crack and crumble kidney stones, and the process can generate tissue damage to the kidneys. If you used an ultrasound lithotriptor directly on a fetus, it would probably be the equivalent of an abortion.
Likewise, if you put your head in a microwave oven and cooked it for a few minutes, there would be health effects. But as the microwaves are used in the airports? I wouldn't argue with someone who asserted that "MMW is no more dangerous than a sonogram". I do think it is lying to say MMW "uses sound waves" or is "the same as a sonogram". If your employees are not intelligent enough to make that distinction, it is unethical to provide them with information they are likely to misconstrue and use to mislead passengers.
The DNA unzipping you are referring to occurs when the microwaves produce enough heat (like 95 degrees C) to denature the DNA. You would be screaming in pain long before your DNA unzipped. And even then, the unzipping will completely reverse as soon as it cooled down. The process is analogous to melting and re-freezing an ice cube. The water doesn't get 'damaged', and neither does the DNA.
I would say that there is no scientific question whether the MMW systems, especially given their dose/wattage, could cause health effects in humans. If you have ever used a cell phone or a microwave oven, you have placed yourself in far more 'danger' than the MMW systems the TSA uses. In all likelihood, any studies on the MMW systems would show that they are actually safer than the WTMDs, which can interfere with pacemakers, etc.
I still won't go through the MMV systems. The political reasons are much more significant that the medical ones, IMO.
Likewise, if you put your head in a microwave oven and cooked it for a few minutes, there would be health effects. But as the microwaves are used in the airports? I wouldn't argue with someone who asserted that "MMW is no more dangerous than a sonogram". I do think it is lying to say MMW "uses sound waves" or is "the same as a sonogram". If your employees are not intelligent enough to make that distinction, it is unethical to provide them with information they are likely to misconstrue and use to mislead passengers.
The DNA unzipping you are referring to occurs when the microwaves produce enough heat (like 95 degrees C) to denature the DNA. You would be screaming in pain long before your DNA unzipped. And even then, the unzipping will completely reverse as soon as it cooled down. The process is analogous to melting and re-freezing an ice cube. The water doesn't get 'damaged', and neither does the DNA.
I would say that there is no scientific question whether the MMW systems, especially given their dose/wattage, could cause health effects in humans. If you have ever used a cell phone or a microwave oven, you have placed yourself in far more 'danger' than the MMW systems the TSA uses. In all likelihood, any studies on the MMW systems would show that they are actually safer than the WTMDs, which can interfere with pacemakers, etc.
I still won't go through the MMV systems. The political reasons are much more significant that the medical ones, IMO.
Jul 24, 2011, 6:35 pm
#23
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 118
Don't know if this has been asked before. Everyday, millions of people submit to MRI's. Huge money is made off that technology. Is it certified safe? Which one is more dangerous? I'd really love to know the answer. Every time a soft tissue injury is suspected, they tell me an MRI is the only option. I guess for those who travel weekly, these radiation exposures get to be a serious matter. But what about those of us who travel a maximum of once a year? Look at those guys who enter Fukushima Daichi. They are probably getting ten thousand times as much radiation.
A CAT scan (or CT scan), on the other hand, uses x-rays, which we know have cumulative adverse effects on living tissue.
Jul 24, 2011, 6:49 pm
#24
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Posts: 3,182
MRI subjects the subject to strong magnetic fields and RF (radio frequency) electromagnetic radiation. Most likely the adverse effects of these on health are minimal, if not nonexistent.
A CAT scan (or CT scan), on the other hand, uses x-rays, which we know have cumulative adverse effects on living tissue.
A CAT scan (or CT scan), on the other hand, uses x-rays, which we know have cumulative adverse effects on living tissue.
Jul 24, 2011, 7:16 pm
#26
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 733
MRI subjects the subject to strong magnetic fields and RF (radio frequency) electromagnetic radiation. Most likely the adverse effects of these on health are minimal, if not nonexistent.
A CAT scan (or CT scan), on the other hand, uses x-rays, which we know have cumulative adverse effects on living tissue.
A CAT scan (or CT scan), on the other hand, uses x-rays, which we know have cumulative adverse effects on living tissue.
Jul 24, 2011, 7:37 pm
#27
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 959
...</snip for brevity>
I would say that there is no scientific question whether the MMW systems, especially given their dose/wattage, could cause health effects in humans. If you have ever used a cell phone or a microwave oven, you have placed yourself in far more 'danger' than the MMW systems the TSA uses. In all likelihood, any studies on the MMW systems would show that they are actually safer than the WTMDs, which can interfere with pacemakers, etc.
I still won't go through the MMV systems. The political reasons are much more significant that the medical ones, IMO.
I would say that there is no scientific question whether the MMW systems, especially given their dose/wattage, could cause health effects in humans. If you have ever used a cell phone or a microwave oven, you have placed yourself in far more 'danger' than the MMW systems the TSA uses. In all likelihood, any studies on the MMW systems would show that they are actually safer than the WTMDs, which can interfere with pacemakers, etc.
I still won't go through the MMV systems. The political reasons are much more significant that the medical ones, IMO.
Do MMW's interfere with hearing aids?
Jul 24, 2011, 7:56 pm
#28
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...
Likewise, if you put your head in a microwave oven and cooked it for a few minutes, there would be health effects. But as the microwaves are used in the airports? I wouldn't argue with someone who asserted that "MMW is no more dangerous than a sonogram". ...
The DNA unzipping you are referring to occurs when the microwaves produce enough heat (like 95 degrees C) to denature the DNA. You would be screaming in pain long before your DNA unzipped. And even then, the unzipping will completely reverse as soon as it cooled down. The process is analogous to melting and re-freezing an ice cube. The water doesn't get 'damaged', and neither does the DNA.
I would say that there is no scientific question whether the MMW systems, especially given their dose/wattage, could cause health effects in humans. If you have ever used a cell phone or a microwave oven, you have placed yourself in far more 'danger' than the MMW systems the TSA uses. In all likelihood, any studies on the MMW systems would show that they are actually safer than the WTMDs, which can interfere with pacemakers, etc.
I still won't go through the MMV systems. The political reasons are much more significant that the medical ones, IMO.
Likewise, if you put your head in a microwave oven and cooked it for a few minutes, there would be health effects. But as the microwaves are used in the airports? I wouldn't argue with someone who asserted that "MMW is no more dangerous than a sonogram". ...
The DNA unzipping you are referring to occurs when the microwaves produce enough heat (like 95 degrees C) to denature the DNA. You would be screaming in pain long before your DNA unzipped. And even then, the unzipping will completely reverse as soon as it cooled down. The process is analogous to melting and re-freezing an ice cube. The water doesn't get 'damaged', and neither does the DNA.
I would say that there is no scientific question whether the MMW systems, especially given their dose/wattage, could cause health effects in humans. If you have ever used a cell phone or a microwave oven, you have placed yourself in far more 'danger' than the MMW systems the TSA uses. In all likelihood, any studies on the MMW systems would show that they are actually safer than the WTMDs, which can interfere with pacemakers, etc.
I still won't go through the MMV systems. The political reasons are much more significant that the medical ones, IMO.
Further, the DNA "unzipping" theory comes from two papers by the same researcher, modelling (not measuring) effects at ~1 THz (=1000 GHz) and has been met with skepticism by the rest of the research community. Even in those papers, the conclusions were pretty tentative. MMW in airports use 20 - 30 GHz, much lower than THz, and closer to the bands used by, for example, the automatic door sensors in public buildings.
No. The energy from MMW is similar to that from cell phones, WiFi, auto door sensors, etc, but at lower power levels.
Like Janet, I object to MMW scanners on political grounds (and privacy, and cost, and speed, and effectiveness, and the risk of theft of my personal items) but not on health grounds.
Jul 25, 2011, 1:04 am
#29
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
However there is a much, much smaller (if it exists at all) subset of the population going through MRIs or CT scans several times per week or month than going through airports. And, like with chemo and radiation therapies for cancer, in those cases the medical benefits have been determined BY QUALIFIED PROFESSIONALS to outweigh the risks of radiation exposure. The equipment is also maintained to a verifiable standard.
Jul 25, 2011, 4:09 am
#30
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And to add, to answer LuvAirFrance's question from above in more depth, MRI is the best imaging technique for soft tissue injuries. However, I'm of the opinion less is more and only order such studies if the injury is serious and I can't rule out the area of concern through other means.
Build a machine and build an industry around it, and it will get purchased and used a lot more than minimally necessary for a given level of effectiveness. Given unethical people are involved who have a "see you more later, sucker" approach and the government has bought into this, and its no surprise that we have the strip search machine purchase-and-use orgy at airports.
Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 25, 2011 at 4:15 am