mahohmei

I've said in previous posts that, should I ever get "selected" for a NoS, I will DOOP--refuse the NoS, the "retalitory grope", and find another way to my destination. In August, I'm going TLH to MHT for my cousin's wedding, and I'm leaving two days early. If TLH has NoSes by then, there will be enough time for me to take Greyhound to Boston, rent a car, and get to Manchester by the evening before the wedding.

When you tell your friends and family about your intentions to DOOP, what are their responses, and how do you counter it? Most people don't want to hear you quoting Ben Franklin about trading liberty for security because, of course, Ben Franklin wasn't around for 9/11. The responses I've heard are:

- "The NoSes are safe; the TSA said so!"
- "It's for security! The stories about people sneaking everything through NoSes are anecdotal evidence...there's no way anyone could sneak anything through those things!"
- "The person viewing the image is in another room and can't see who you are!"
- "They're going to be mandatory at all US airports soon enough; get used to it!"
- "Are you just going to stay grounded and not travel?"
- "I've been through it several times; it's great!"
- "The stories about sexual assault survivors reliving their assault are just anecdotal evidence. Anyway, it's for security!"

Has anyone here had any degree of success explaining to the "nothing to hide" crowd why they won't subject themselves to this?

exbayern

'Let me show you this' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idICUSiGcqo

shoegal0107

I've shown this site to people to explain just why the grope can be so distressing: http://www.aclu.org/passengers-stories-recent-travel/

It's just anecdotes so might not convince all, but it has certainly made some people aware of the problem

divemistressofthedark

I usually start out with the fact that there's no dose of radiation that's safe, and that the AITs are untested and run by people with high school diplomas, not radiologists.

I've resigned myself to risking the gropes, but I can't imagine anyone wouldn't understand the desire to keep strangers' fingers out of your pants and off your private areas.

Anyone who says "it's for security!" to me gets a very long winded litany of exactly why this is baloney. To the point that most who know me actively avoid the subject these days.

AINITFUNNY

Funny, You can dismiss actual eyewitness and victim testimony by calling it "anecdotal".

You are left with "theoretical" which is even more easily dismissed.

They even prohibit voice recording and dismiss video and actual photographic evidence as inaccurate, misleading, edited, photoshopped, missing the "whole" story, etc ad nauseum.

Get it? NOTHING is accepted as evidence of government abuse of authority, and if you do have it, you will be appropriately punished with reprisals of every conceivable dimension for daring to challenge the powers that be.

Evidence is either "secret", confidential, or a matter forbidden the light of day by the "privacy" act which was a MASSIVE FRAUD ON THE PUBLIC DESIGNED TO COVER THE ... OF EVILDOERS, NOT CITIZENS WISHING PRIVACY.

weather

Maybe my experience is different but when I have been selected for NOS I just opt out and have always gotten a very courteous superficial patdown. The main diffrence between the old patdown for me was the head/hair check and the back of hand buttocks check/breast check which wasn't a traumatic experience for me.

NotaCriminal

Yes, your experience has been different than others (not all, of course). You can read all about many other "different" experiences all over this forum or by searching news via a search engine.

And a breast check may not be traumatic for you, but the one I got that was more thorough than my own MD's exam, was traumatic for me. Posters on this forum alone have experience far worse than this and certainly far worse than your typical experience.

Just remember, you can have 20 uneventful screenings, but that 21st search might be a real doozy. Hope your luck holds; it hasn't for many others, particularly if you are elderly, disabled or a female travelling solo.

I'd Rather Walk

Alot of people seem willing to put up with this. Maybe they need to be less concerned with themselves and more with others, read the Chell post, read about Rep. Cissna, women who were rape victims that have to travel for their job or the girl sexual assault victime wanting to look at grad school in another part of the country but can't allow herself to be touched or go through the scanner. Even a big tough guy, former governor and pro wrestler Jesie Venture objects to being felt up just to get on an airplane. I'm tired of seeing 60 year old men on television say this is no big deal.

mahohmei

Before 2001-12-22 (Failed Shoe Bomb Day), any proposals to make pax remove shoes to go through security would have been met with massive protesting.

Before 2009-12-25 (Failed Underwear Bomb Day), any proposals to nudie-scan pax would have been met with massive protesting.

"I will not choose between frisking and nudie-scanning as a condition of boarding a commercial airliner."

Honestly. Please. I have to even say that? And other people _actually think there's something wrong with that statement_?!?

I recently had someone tell me that NoSes are not only going to be mandatory at all US airports, but that they're also coming to cruise lines. I pointed out that any cruise line that voluntarily NoSes its pax could expect its business to take a nosedive. Yet another reason people think I'm "weird".

I imagine massive pushback from cruise lines if the TSA tried to force NoSes on them. Quite frankly, I'm surprised NoSes have even made it into US airports, given airlines' lobbying weight. Or are Members of Congress simply too scared to be portrayed as being "soft on terrorism"?

Some people are looking forward to January 2013: I'm 90% confident we'll have a new President, but the next Congress will, once again, be ~90% incumbent, thanks to the "I hate Congress except _my_ delegation!" crowd. So I'm not holding my breath for any change in the right direction.

exbayern

Was that in Canada or in the US?

mahohmei

OK, I hate to dig this old thread back up, but I just had the below salvos fired at me.

- I'm making "too big a deal" about it.
- I'm not a sexual assault survivor.
- They have invasive pat-downs in other countries too; I don't travel enough to know what it's like in other countries.
- It's coming to cruise lines. The cruise lines actually want it because it'll stop people from smuggling drugs.
- Enjoy the smelly bus.
- The stories about invasive pat-downs are only on conspiracy boards; they don't actually happen.
- The pat-downs aren't inappropriate.
- Everybody has to do it; they're not singling me out.
- I don't have anything to hide; every male out there is the same down there.
- It's not unlike X-rays and examinations at the doctor's office.

exbayern

I do travel to many countries every year and I would absolutely dispute this. Security even in countries labelled 'bad' by many have professional security staff who treat passengers with respect.

I'd Rather Walk

" Everybody has to do it; they're not singling me out."

That's what the jews could say as they were being put on the trains.


"It's not unlike X-rays and examinations at the doctor's office."

And rape is just sex with a stranger.

Our Govt. has gotten alot of people so fearful that they will submit to anything that pretends to make them safer. The TSA outrage is a subject like gun control and abortion. It's emotional not logical and you will never convince those that think it ok. I flooded a relatives email with news stories about TSA horror story and she finally sees my point but flies alot, is fearful ad still goes willingly through the radiation machine.

red456

Perhaps your experience is what an opt out "rub" down should be and follows the SOP exactly. We will never know however - or at least not until the TSA is forced by the courts to release it. Even then, I wouldn't trust them to release a true and correct SOP.

mahohmei

Excellent point: more emotional than logical. I also draw a line to the War on Drugs. Emotion and circular logic override real logic.

"We can't eliminate the War on Drugs! If drugs became legal, people would become addicted to expensive drugs coming from a violent black market, and they'd turn to violent crime to support their expensive drug habits!"

"Abortion has to be illegal! They're conducted in back alleys with rusty coat hangers, and woman die from them!"

When circular logic fails, you simply use falsehoods and ignorance:

"They can put their hands down my pants all they want; they're keeping us safe!"

"I'd rather have a hand down my pants than have my airplane hijacked or blown up!"

"The TSA assault stories are only on conspiracy boards and they're hyped-up stories!"

...or, my personal favorites:

"Full-body scanners and pat downs are here to stay. It doesn't matter if they're ineffective; we all have to go through them."

"No system is perfect; the guns and explosives getting through are isolated incidents."

"I don't want to hear it!"