The rights of Canadians (or any non-U.S. citizen) at TSA checkpoints
Nov 30, 2010, 10:50 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Posts: 16
The rights of Canadians (or any non-U.S. citizen) at TSA checkpoints
Hello everyone. Loooong time lurker, first time poster. I love this site and appreciate the mountains of wisdom and useful information that so many have provided here.
Quick background: I work for a mid-sized international company and fly about 10-12 times a year. Our head office is in Vancouver B.C. and I fly half the time in North America, the other half in Hong Kong and China. I'm certainly not an inexperienced flyer although I'm a lightweight compared to some of the Super Elite etc. people here.
The recent fury over TSA practices has brought something to mind. I and my two children are Canadian citizens. My wife is a dual U.S./Canada. She's also a very lithe and attractive 30 yr old. I've been building up a head of steam over the abuses that some TSOs have been inflicting on "hot" girls and women, and I'm ready to demand that I witness any pat-downs involving my wife or kids, also to be recorded on my cell phone.
But it dawns on me that I'm not a U.S. citizen. Although my wife has a hell of a backbone and has no problem tearing any abusive TSO a new orifice, I think her status as a citizen gives her the ability to do so without fear. While I normally wouldn't worry about this for myself, we do have two little kids and I don't want to end up detained in some cell because I asserted what I thought were my rights. So I guess I'm asking: What "rights" do Canadians have at a TSA checkpoint? While I have no fear of TSOs, they ARE backed up by airport police, and I'm not sure I'd want to get into a "legal discussion" with an actual peace officer without some idea of what they can and can't do to me.
In Canada the RCMP have "Breach of the Peace" as a catch-all to arrest and detain anyone causing a fuss, although the fuss DOES have to be a big one. IOW I think a U.S. citizen could harshly question any CATSA officer caught abusing their powers without fear of legal repercussions. But I must also add that IANAL.
Anyhow, any insight on the question above would be much appreciated.
Quick background: I work for a mid-sized international company and fly about 10-12 times a year. Our head office is in Vancouver B.C. and I fly half the time in North America, the other half in Hong Kong and China. I'm certainly not an inexperienced flyer although I'm a lightweight compared to some of the Super Elite etc. people here.
The recent fury over TSA practices has brought something to mind. I and my two children are Canadian citizens. My wife is a dual U.S./Canada. She's also a very lithe and attractive 30 yr old. I've been building up a head of steam over the abuses that some TSOs have been inflicting on "hot" girls and women, and I'm ready to demand that I witness any pat-downs involving my wife or kids, also to be recorded on my cell phone.
But it dawns on me that I'm not a U.S. citizen. Although my wife has a hell of a backbone and has no problem tearing any abusive TSO a new orifice, I think her status as a citizen gives her the ability to do so without fear. While I normally wouldn't worry about this for myself, we do have two little kids and I don't want to end up detained in some cell because I asserted what I thought were my rights. So I guess I'm asking: What "rights" do Canadians have at a TSA checkpoint? While I have no fear of TSOs, they ARE backed up by airport police, and I'm not sure I'd want to get into a "legal discussion" with an actual peace officer without some idea of what they can and can't do to me.
In Canada the RCMP have "Breach of the Peace" as a catch-all to arrest and detain anyone causing a fuss, although the fuss DOES have to be a big one. IOW I think a U.S. citizen could harshly question any CATSA officer caught abusing their powers without fear of legal repercussions. But I must also add that IANAL.
Anyhow, any insight on the question above would be much appreciated.
Nov 30, 2010, 11:04 am
#3
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: DTW
Programs: Dirt Status w/ All
Posts: 5,040
You have the same rights as any US Citizen at the checkpoint. There are only a few rights reserved for citizens, such as the right to vote.
The only thing that could complicate it is if law enforcement became involved, and someone was in the country illegally, or had a warrant for their arrest. Even so, you would still have the right to an attorney, trial by jury, etc. the same as any US Citizen if it came to an actual arrest. Attempting to fly while Canadian is not an arrestable offense.
The only thing that could complicate it is if law enforcement became involved, and someone was in the country illegally, or had a warrant for their arrest. Even so, you would still have the right to an attorney, trial by jury, etc. the same as any US Citizen if it came to an actual arrest. Attempting to fly while Canadian is not an arrestable offense.
Dec 1, 2010, 11:09 am
#8
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,439
Without agreeing or disagreeing that our rights are illusions: We don't have Constitutional rights, we have Constitutional protections against government infringement on our inalienable rights. The U.S. Constitution doesn't grant rights; it acknowledges them and sets limits on the power of our government.
Dec 1, 2010, 2:02 pm
#10
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: YUL
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 2,103
Maybe the OP is mixing CBP and the TSA?
As a Canadian, I have no concerns at all about having an assertive and firm attitude with the TSA. Neither should the OP. Feel free to opt out, ask for a change of gloves and demand that your items remain in your sight at all times.
CBP on the other hand have the ability to make you have a very bad day. The onus is on you to prove your non-immigrant intent every time you enter the USA. I suggest that you be polite with CBP at all times.
As a Canadian, I have no concerns at all about having an assertive and firm attitude with the TSA. Neither should the OP. Feel free to opt out, ask for a change of gloves and demand that your items remain in your sight at all times.
CBP on the other hand have the ability to make you have a very bad day. The onus is on you to prove your non-immigrant intent every time you enter the USA. I suggest that you be polite with CBP at all times.
Dec 1, 2010, 2:12 pm
#11
Join Date: Jun 2007
Programs: M&M, AA GLD, FB
Posts: 233
That's also my worry. TSA & CBP are brothers from one mother, the DHS. If someone is REALLY troublesome ("don't touch my junk" level) to the TSA (and is a non-citizen), what are you willing to bet that the CBP will also find out about it?
Dec 1, 2010, 2:14 pm
#12
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
Once you make it through Customs, I would think you're safe to be assertive with TSA. If they give you any hassle, or threaten to detain or arrest you, I would think they would back down if you asked for a representative from the Canadian Embassy. They know they're right on (if not over) the edge of a lot of US laws - I don't think they want to move this to the international stage.
As long as you don't break the law, can the US deny entry to a Canadian citizen without violating treaties?
Dec 1, 2010, 2:26 pm
#14
Join Date: Jun 2007
Programs: M&M, AA GLD, FB
Posts: 233
I am also not sure about the treaties are you mentioning, as I am not very familiar with the US/Canada immigration agreements. However, I would presume that the right to refuse entry to non-citizens would be one of those things that any independent country would be very hesitant to give up easily.
Dec 1, 2010, 3:04 pm
#15
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
IANAL and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn, but I am pretty sure a CBP officer can deny entry to any visa holder pretty easily, claiming intent to immigrate, fraud, or what else.
I am also not sure about the treaties are you mentioning, as I am not very familiar with the US/Canada immigration agreements. However, I would presume that the right to refuse entry to non-citizens would be one of those things that any independent country would be very hesitant to give up easily.
I am also not sure about the treaties are you mentioning, as I am not very familiar with the US/Canada immigration agreements. However, I would presume that the right to refuse entry to non-citizens would be one of those things that any independent country would be very hesitant to give up easily.
Here is a site that gives more details.
Eligibility
To qualify for the Visa Waiver Program, you must:
* Intend to enter the U.S. for 90 days or less for business or pleasure.
* ALL VWP travelers must carry passports that are machine-readable and valid for six months beyond the intended visit unless the applicant's country is part of the "six month club". See here for details
* Passports issued between October 26, 2005 and October 26, 2006 must contain a digitized photograph of the bearer to be eligible for entry under the VWP.
* Passports issued after October 26, 2006 must be e-passports - that is, include an integrated computer chip in order to be eligible for entry under the VWP.
* Be a national of the VWP country that issued your passport.
* Be cleared by the ESTA system. (see below) waived for Canadians
* Have a return trip ticket.
o This requirement is waived in the case of travelers arriving at a land border.
* Not pose a safety threat to the United States.
* Not have failed to comply with the conditions of any previous admission under the visa waiver program.
* Convince the examining immigration officer that you are clearly and beyond a doubt entitled to be admitted and that you are not inadmissible under section 212 of the Act, and
* Waive any right to challenge an immigration officer's decision as to your admissibility, other than on the basis of an application for asylum.
To qualify for the Visa Waiver Program, you must:
* Intend to enter the U.S. for 90 days or less for business or pleasure.
* ALL VWP travelers must carry passports that are machine-readable and valid for six months beyond the intended visit unless the applicant's country is part of the "six month club". See here for details
* Passports issued between October 26, 2005 and October 26, 2006 must contain a digitized photograph of the bearer to be eligible for entry under the VWP.
* Passports issued after October 26, 2006 must be e-passports - that is, include an integrated computer chip in order to be eligible for entry under the VWP.
* Be a national of the VWP country that issued your passport.
* Be cleared by the ESTA system. (see below) waived for Canadians
* Have a return trip ticket.
o This requirement is waived in the case of travelers arriving at a land border.
* Not pose a safety threat to the United States.
* Not have failed to comply with the conditions of any previous admission under the visa waiver program.
* Convince the examining immigration officer that you are clearly and beyond a doubt entitled to be admitted and that you are not inadmissible under section 212 of the Act, and
* Waive any right to challenge an immigration officer's decision as to your admissibility, other than on the basis of an application for asylum.
Last edited by janetdoe; Dec 1, 2010 at 3:10 pm