TSORon - I'm still waiting on you to comment on the "terroristic acts" I found in the link you posted yesterday that showed the US had a "significant terrorism problem".

The guy in the link posted above who was attempting to seek refuge in Canada, has just about the same terroristic intent as the Animal Liberation Front did releasing minks.:rolleyes:

Care to post anymore links we can refute?

I'd also like to know if was the minks that were considered the terrorists or the one who released them. As always I'm sure that particular terrorist considered himself more of a "freedom fighter". Maybe the minks figure we have a lot to answer for.

Mr. Peterson is correct, this is not a game. My apologies to you Mr. Peterson.

Here is the point I was trying to make. Poster SEAFFLYER presented 2 representations, one being terrorists and the other not. My point by linking the article I did is that there is no way to tell who is and who is not. None what-so-ever. The young man in the article was a young Asian male, but with his disguise in place he looks like a little old white male. He could just as easily have appeared to be a female, black, middle eastern, or any other type of person under the sun.

So based on this it’s clear that profiling is a useless exercise. OBL himself could appear to be to be your great aunts sister, brother, mother, or even father, and with the technology and skill the young man in question was able to acquire OBL could get away with it.

One system, one measure, one approach, is not going to work to stop those who wish to do harm to US citizens. ALL of them must be used. US citizens are the choice target of every terrorist organization on the planet (with one possible exception, do you know which organization I am speaking of?). No matter where we go we have a target painted on our backs the moment we let it slip where we come from. BTW, Israelis have it just as bad, but there are far fewer of them. The US Government would be remiss in its duties to its citizens if it did not provide the very best it could to prevent another major terrorist attack.

Many of you will say that it isn’t. Well, you are welcome to your opinion. I disagree, as does the vast majority of the public, as does the government, as do the vast majority of the recognized experts in the field. Some don’t, but that is opinion as well. It’s all opinion. But the proof is in the pudding, right? So the only relevant question is, if the government is doing such a poor job of providing a safer environment for commercial aviation in our country then why has there been no major follow-on attacks against US commercial aviation targets since the events of 9/11/2001?

Why have there been no attacks at shopping malls, etc.? Could it possibly be because there are no "domestic terrorists" who feel their cause is worth dying for?

When do the rectal probes, barium enemas and CT scans of the entire gastrointestinal tract begin? After all, they could be valuable in the search for WEI, so they must be used.

And why, exactly, would it be a problem for these people to be on a commercial aircraft? I would guess that any aircraft with Bin Laden himself on board would be one of the safest flights in the sky at that particular moment.

I'd even fly coach to be able to listen to his stories on a transcon.

I wouldn't have any qualms about turning him in upon arrival, but wouldn't have and fears about sharing airspace with him.

TSA would save more lives if they turned their jobs back over to Argenbrite and placed a TSO with nutrition pamphlets at the door of every fast food outlet.

Statistically, TSA is a massive waste of time and money at the task for which they are now deployed.

If anyone really has a desire to save lives or make the world a better place, TSA is not for them. On the other hand, if they are content with imagining that they are saving lives, TSA is just that place. Or possibly as a white witch in some massive multi-player on-line game.

Point A:
A simple glance at his hands at the first checkpoint would have given him away.

Point B:
Behavioral profiling would also have caught him before he boarded the plane. Israel doesn't rely on racial profiling. They question everyone. Since we already have to stop at a TSA checkpoint to show ID at the start of the process, a few simple questions would quickly root out those that need further questioning. When I was flying back and forth to AMS in the terrorist era of the late 80s, the Dutch military was very thorough and questioned everyone that was boarding a US bound flight. They used dogs, searches (without feeling the need to touch my private parts), and plain old common sense (something that seems to escape the TSA).

It would be useful if there could be some kind of consensus on what the word profiling encompasses. I'm inferring from your use of it that you're referring to racial profiling, which is just one kind of profiling. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe anybody who's gotten a Nexus pass, Global Entry, etc. has been profiled. Isn't the TSA No-Fly list also profiling?

Profiling other than racial or religious may be controversial in other ways, but it seems to be a fairly basic tool in a lot of police and intelligence work. At least one expert argues that "Behavioral assessment profiling isn't the problem. Abuse of behavioral profiling is the problem..."

I don't think the TSA is equipped to do this. There have been some well-publicized problems with the No-Fly list. What do others think? Is there any kind of smarter security between the extremes of no security at all and X-Ray and or invasive pat-downs of virtually everybody (other than the exceptions which seem to be in contradiction of the exercise :rolleyes:)?

Because shortly after 9/11, we armored cockpit doors, gave guns to flight crews, and the airlines eliminated their "no resistance" policies.

Only the self deluded within TSA believe TSA has had anything to do with the government's success.

OTOH, TSA has accomplished the singular honor of being the most disliked agency in all of government. Give yourself a hand, TSO's - at least you've made the plight of an IRS examiner a whole lot better by comparison.

Exactly.

As Halls said: Arming pilots, reinforced cockpit doors, philosophical change in hijack resistance strategies, passenger intervention.

Apparently, you missed the big news last month and last year, and in previous years that brought us the war on shoes (shoe bomber), the war on water (don't remember why this one started), the war on underwear and the latest installment: the war on printer toner cartridges.

I'd submit, contrary to your assertion, that there have been major follow-on attacks on US commercial airlines. Well publicized attacks. Attacks that the TSA has attempted to capitalize on to justify itself. The fact that these attacks have been unsuccessful is not due to TSA/DHS interventions even when TSA was provided advance notice that an individual would make an attempt. This must be truly bitter pudding for the TSA to eat.

So, instead, we half strip (belts, shoes, winter coats, sweaters), get felt, porn-o-scoped and our possessions rifled and pilfered. And attacks still happen. The change is these attacks have been thwarted. By private citizens acting in their own best interest according to their abilities. A change in response that happened even before the last aircraft on that clear September morning could be used to execute its mission. Before the government advised such a change in response. Without breaching the fundamental limits on government our founding fathers provided.

Your agency, more than any other has demonstrated that these limits on government powers are absolutely necessary to a free and democratic society.

So your answer is to treat everyone who buys a plane ticket like a terrorist until proven otherwise, is that right?

Using that type of logic would have buyers of plane tickets treat screeners as perverts, theives and other undesirable types until proven otherwise.

Usually what you give will be returned in equal or better value.

Ya those pesky americans advocating their constitutional rights... hey DHS even said so itself, those who believe in the constitution are infact terrorists...


Not true. The Govt gave vistory to the 'terrorists' with the implement of the patriot act, DHS, and a few other measures of 'security'

Eh I think the IRS still out ranks the TSA,..... atleast with the TSA your gropings only last a few minutes, with the IRS, they kick you out of your house seize all your assets, seize your bank accounts, and then says 'see you in court' wether your guilty of tax evasion or not.

Ok, 2264. You have caught zero of them. Quite a track record.

How many have you failed to catch? Every one.

One problem with what our alleged TSA representative posting here observed about the limitations of profiling.

No, you can't tell by looking who is a terrorist. Yes, it could be a child or an old woman. So he thinks that means they are guilty until innocent and must be probed and groped until TSA is satisfied that they are not guilty (this time).

What he neglects to mention is that a terrorist could also pass a background check and wear a blue uniform and a shiny badge and work at an airport. But if the terrorist does that, from the day he gets hired, he will be above suspicion, innocent until proven guilty, and even then maybe not. No probing and groping, no accountability, no reliable record of his comings and goings and activities.

Because once he passes his little background check and gets that blue uniform and shiny badge, he's more American than any of the rest of us and he can't possibly be a terrorist.

Well it seems that you and I do agree on something Ron, THIS is not a game and I offer my apologies to Mr Peterson as well.

"...and a bomber in the Middle East attempted to assassinate a leader with explosives inserted in his posterior."

Will TSA be instituting colo-rectal examinations as a prelude to boarding an aircraft in the near future?

IMO, while the TSA is concerned about passengers, it is more concerned about the inability of its front line staff to administer anything but the lowest standard of security and inadequate at that, but they do find water.

The fact that the US hasn't had another successful attack has very little to due with the punitive measures imposed on the traveling public.

DHS in its CBP unit has a trusted traveler program(Global Entry) already in place. Global Entry allows vetted travelers to enter the country in an expedited manner, freeing agents to spend time on other travelers who might present a greater threat.

It doesn't mean that Global Entry participants aren't screened, or may not be further screened at the officers discretion but it generally requires a lower level of inspection. The program uses information, profiling and intelligence to eliminate the need to strip search every person entering US airports from overseas in order to control the movement of contraband.

It is time for the TSA to take a more enlightened approach to passenger security and screening. To do otherwise risks impeding the flow of commerce and its benefits.

A more interesting question is "Do you, Randy Peterson, believe that is it possible for there to be meaningful dialog between the Transportation Security Administration and American Citizens? You are certainly correct in that this is not a game. It is a fight for the soul of this country. You still have a bully pulpit here, lame duck as it is. Your role as an obligate moderator is over.

Choose sides

TSA's approach reminds me of treating rampaging cancer with a series of bandaids. Or some programmers' work I've seen over the decades. Spaghetti code happens due to the belief that "you only need to fix each little bug as you discover it". TSA is making its counterterrorist program like an old fashioned COBOL spaghetti coder. That is: The program is sound, so no need to re-engineer. Just patch each little flaw you discover. And now that I think of it, this is ALSO the Microsoft approach to software security. Patch Tuesday. TSA wants to have its Patch Tuesday. And call it security quality assurance. And ignore all complaints because "what else can we do?"

Sorry doober, you are incorrect.. If this is not terrorism, what is?

We're not number one. We're not in the top 30.

The US is number 33 out of 191. Not even in the 'high risk' bracket.

Cite

Care to revise your statement, Ron?

That is a mentally disturbed individual acting out. His purpose has nothing to do with terrorism.

Timothy McVeigh. He was a terrorist. Eric Rudolph. He was a terrorist.

Not every distrubed individual is a terrorist.

~~ Irish

Your right, there are many types, but if you read here you will note that this is exactly what the TSA’s BDO’s do, yet the posters here find absolutely no worth in their duties. I, on the other hand, have seen them at work and can vouch for the skills they have been taught.

Yes, but then again we are back to BDO’s and the local opinion. An interesting thought here is that the locals disparage BDO’s for no other reason than that they wear the same uniform that I do. It has nothing to do with the efficacy of their training or techniques, its rank bias and nothing more.

To see one must open one’s eyes. Put the prejudice back in your pocket for a few minutes and take an honest look (if you can, I know how difficult that can be) at what the TSA does and how. Keep the preconceptions away for a while and instead take an unbiased look. The problems with the NFL are miniscule, tiny, and over-blown massively by the media and the folks here who cannot be intellectually honest about anything having to do with the TSA.

In the words of William Shatner.

They.... "Saw"... Through... The... Un... Believable... Disguise.... Because...
THE GUY TOOK THE @#$! OFF WHILE ON THE PLANE!

It... was... a... passenger... who... alerted... the... brave... crew... of... the... Enterprise...
I MEAN IT WAS THE CREW OF THE PLANE!

:rolleyes:

Put the hyperbole away BD. It serves no useful purpose, and never has. :rolleyes:

Airport checkpoints have been around since the 60’s. And as the terrorists have become more sophisticated so has screening, by necessity. To use the same techniques as were used when the checkpoints first opened would be criminal, and stupid.

"When he first came to live with us, he was in the fetal position and chewed his fingernails all the time," she said.

But she said she thought he was improving, as he had gotten a job, a haircut and a girlfriend. However, she said Hawkins and his girlfriend had broken up in the last couple of weeks, and he had taken it hard.


Uh, no. That is not a terrorist.

But the terrorists have proved willing to take months or even years to plan an attack.

So a terrorist could easily be someone who has passed a background check and is wearing a blue uniform with a shiny badge. Because he will have passed a background check to get his job, he will be permanently above suspicion until he does something really really egregious - and then only if video of the incident makes it to youtube and the evening news.

If a pax observes the terrorist doing something suspicious and reports it, the entire organization will rally behind him and attack the pax's credibility, media bias, etc.

Unlike federal positions where security is really taking seriously, after his initial background check, he will not be subject to routine new checks.

If your cite is what you call "terrorism" it's your perspective that is really screwed up. It's more like "suicide by cop."

Do some of your infamous internet searches and find links to domestic (US) suicide bombers. Then come back to us.

During my trip to CLE, I encountered one of the bdo's. I am a white middle aged man, I am very much at home in an airport having flown as much as I have over the years who has no intent to cause harm to anyone. After I cleared security I was enjoying a cup of coffee nearby and was in a good mood having had a smooth trip thru the checkpoint when one of these highly trained:rolleyes: bdo's with the skills that you say they have been taught:rolleyes: approached me.

BDO: Good Morning sir, are you meeting someone today? (note I was in the secure area)

ME: No

BDO: So your flying out today?

ME: Yes

BDO: Where are you flying to?

I responded by not saying anything to her, gathered up my belongings and walked away in the opposite direction.

Yep, I sure do feel safe knowing highly skilled and trained bdo's like this one are on duty:rolleyes::rolleyes::td:

An awfully ironic statement, considering your recent use of hyperbole (underlined below):

If you're going to criticize others for their debating tactics, you really ought to play by the same rules.

Notice how TSA is trying to make both adults and children comfortable with talking to complete strangers? We're supposed to think that anyone with a TSO shirt on has to be obeyed, no matter the circumstances.

I think we need to start rounding up these TSO's and put them in some kind of re-education camp. After all, that's what they'd like to do to us. ;)

Is anyone disturbed that law enforcement is making a big deal about the Portland, OR "bomber", when they GAVE HIM the bomb and IT WAS A FAKE BOMB! It was pure and simple entrapment. How soon before they start using this as an excuse to further erode our liberties? Will TSA start slipping fake bombs on the aircraft and then putting us in prison for terrorism? :(

For the record, I'm not normally a wacko. That was my Dad, who served in two branches of our military and would have a few choice words to say to TSORon if he could speak from the grave. I just get more wound up the longer this stuff goes on.

At any time, any place. For example, if a blue shirt approaches me in the parking lot, at a train station, a bus station, a sports stadium and starts asking questions or threatening me, I have no way of knowing if that individual is, in fact, a TSO on legitimate business, a rogue TSO or an impostor.

We are already told we can be stopped and our bags searched at any time in the sterile area. It's a matter of time before a TSO approaches someone in the restroom and insists on a bag and body search.

I am for rounding up the TSO's alright, but I would would not put them in an education camp, how about putting them in the unemployment line, ALL OF THEM^:)

My Dad served in the army during WWII, and was a disabled veteran having gotten his wounds in combat, he like your Dad would have a few choice words for Ron if he were still with us on earth and able to speak out loud.

Ron has stated that he served in the military, I do not remember for how long or what branch it was, but I do believe IIRC that he said he served in some kind of security capacity, an MP or something.

Do you find it difficult to believe IF Ron indeed served in the military that he posts like he does in this forum?, what is he not saying about his experience in the military?,makes you wonder doesnt it?

What saddens me is how great the concept of TSA was at its birth and what it has came to be in its current form:(:mad::td:

He also claimed to have served his country by working as a foster parent (foster parents are paid, BTW). He alleged some knowledge of special needs people, but in fact if you read all of his posts on the matter, he is the last person I would want to have accosting my special needs passenger at a checkpoint.

I didnt say that he was a terrorist, I said his acts were terrorism. :rolleyes:

Not at all. The statement was accurate, 100%. As such it cannot be hyperbole.

I'm sure granny, grandpa and the rest of america will be quite fine in letting you pinch our faces instead of our crotches.

As polite as I could, I tried nudging this to a dialogue of the topic, but some of those posting exclaim to be exempt. So, let me call in my friend, Mr. Hold Button, and see if there's a pause in this action that will allow some of you time to exhale. Thank you.