I've been a manager in a federal LEO organization (a real LEO org., not like TSA's "square badges") for nearly 20 years. Thus I start w/ a presumption of goodwill and competence towards LEGITIMATE and COMPETENT steps to safeguard flying.

TSA has long since left behind either of those benchmarks and has become an out of control, unprofessional, arrogant, heavyhanded fascistic tool that does more to prove that the terrorists have won than any actual attack ...

We've handed over our freedoms in an absurdly ineffective and hole-laden kabuki security theatre, and your positing that those who are offended by TSA's lack of professionalism and its propagandistic bombast somehow give aid and comfort to the enemy only underscores the failure of you and your employer.

My colleagues and I would think TSA is a joke, only there is nothing funny about (a) its failure to effectively protect us; and (b) its absurdly incompetent and arrogant power grabs combining ignorance of scientific and technical peer-reviewed data with wholesale disregard for personal dignity and constitutional rights.:td:

I'm sorry, your facts are a bit out of date. According to the Global Terrorism Database the current number of terrorist attacks is in the area of 2264 (http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/...px?country=217). And I'm pretty sure that the database does not have them all.

We have a pretty significant terrorist problem in our country, but those who do not pay attention to whats going on tend to miss these things. :(

Fendertweed, thank you for this. Virtually all the professional military personnel I know have an acute, clear understanding of the American system and where the military fits in. They know precisely what they're defending. They're privately infuriated and sickened by TSA tactics. (For that matter even ground-level LEOs in airports often let us know they find TSA ridiculous.) They know the difference between brutalism and patriotism. For this reason I have no worries about a "Seven Days in May" military coup d'etat scenario in this country, but significant worry about the expansionist agenda of a repressive, brutalist, punitive TSA at war with its own citizens.

It is no accident that the military ranks among our country's most respected institutions, in or out of government, while TSA comes in just about last. The main move TSA has made to promote respect for its forces was to... switch to a different colored shirt. Almost funny. Almost.

I openly admit who I work for. I do so knowing that 99% of the comments written here are very much in opposition to my agency. Its a level of honesty I don't see in your post.

I agree.

The problem is, you haven't GIVEN THEM better security. You've just given them more and called it better.

Um. But did you bother to find out what those WERE? Anyone can make a list like that. Now compare that with the bombing of trains in Mumbai and the 26/11 attack on hotels there. Or the bombing in Bali. Or the poison gas in Japan.

Don't fall so easily for government propaganda.

TSORon - let's play a game here. What do you consider to be type of terroristic activity that you and your agency are protecting us from? When then majority of the American people think of the word "terrorist" - they think of brown skin people in turbans. Simple as that. After all, that's who attacked us on 9/11. (Pardon if I offended anyone with that comment - not my intention.)

That being said, I do realize there are home grown terrorist cells and individuals, like McVeigh, etc. But a quick glance at the "proof" you provided in the link mentioned doesn't show examples of the terroristic activity that the sheeple in this country think you are protecting us from.

- Skin-head gang members beat to death a Hispanic teen.
- A KKK member shot a potential member for not going through initiation.
- KKK members spray painted racial slurs on the side of a thrift shop in WA.
- Several members of the Animal Liberation Front broke into a mink farm and released 7,000 minks.

Do you really want to cite those examples as being a "significant terrorism problem" in the United States? Give me a break. :rolleyes: Where are the examples of the Al Qaeda linked folks trying to get on board a domestic US flight with a home made bomb?

But going back to your OP, I will give you the fact that terrorists have won. Why? Because a good majority of this country lives in fear of the next attack.

On 9/23/01 I boarded a cruise ship for a week long cruise to the Caribbean, against the desperate wishes of my mother, who was afraid that something else could happen 2 weeks post 9/11. I told her that if it was my time, it was my time, and that I'd be damned if I was going to stop living my life because some radical extremists thousands of miles away MIGHT decide my cruise ship was their next target.

The majority of us in the TS/S forum also feel this way. We refuse to live our lives base in fear, nor do we want the government propagating that fear, and attempting to "protect" us to the point that it interferes with our 4th amendment rights.

That other persons opinion is wrong as is yours!

Yeh, if its skinheads, what are these gropedowns at the airport doing to prevent that sort of terrorism? How is the knowledge coming from dealing with Neonazis factoring into the policy of groping old ladies and small children?

This says it all. Terrorism is about power over how you live your life and how expensive, in every way, that they can make that for you.

So we are governed by "what the people have spoken?" Really. Well, Ron, it wasn't too long ago that "the people" rounded up certain American citizens and put them in concentration camps. It wasn't too long ago that "the people" actively permitted discrimination against certain American citizens because of the color of their skin. "The people" are still discriminating against certain American citizens because of their sexual preference. Maybe you can justify what you do and what you believe based on the results of a public opinion poll, but this country isn't supposed to be run as if it was a gigantic popularity contest.

^^ As I've stated before, inside the Beltway TSA and DHS are widely considered to be a complete and utter joke. We'd laugh at them more often, but it's hard to laugh when their actions make you want to hang your head in sorrow.

The only government employees who appreciate DHS and TSA are the employees of IRS, because TSA has displaced them as the most disliked agency in all of government.

LOL... why oh why oh why oh why do you guys keep debating the TSO's on this forum? You need to understand, THEY ARE BEING PAID TO SPREAD DISINFORMATION AND PROMOTE THE TSA AGENDA. It doesn't matter what you say or how much sense you make to them... they will deny your points and counter with the same garbage over and over and over, endlessly. They will flat out lie to your face, quote false made-up statistics, and do everything else they can do to annoy you. It's their JOB. They are paid government shills. Nothing you say to them will ever matter!

If their job was to say the sky is green with pink polka-dots it wouldn't matter what you said in response, they'd stick with that assertion.

I just don't get why you guys don't understand this and why you keep wasting time replying to them. Ignoring them is the only way to shut them up.

^ Welcome to Flyertalk, maradydd.

Really. every minute of every hour, of every day. Thats 1,440 firearms or clubs or knives, or other weapons or explosives each 24 hour day. Thats 10,080 per week or 43,680 each and every month. Thats 524,160 every year or 4,717,440 contriband items since this whole silliness started. Let's hear it for the crack TEAM-TSO!

Oh, wait, there was that time last Christmas tho...

Good, if these were possessed by the terrorists you are claiming to stop.

BTW, how many of the possessors of these materials were arrested or taken into custody for their acts of terrorism?

Because until they are, you have not caught a terrorist, you have caught otherwise law-abiding citizens that have inadvertently forgotten to remove something from their carry on that you consider potentially dangerous just because it crosses the threshold of a commercial aircraft, things that are perfectly legal in most places except the airport.

Those 'tons of hazardous materials' consist mainly of bottled drinks and toothpaste tubes.

I’m sorry, can you tell me what a terrorist looks like? Please, be specific, I would hate to miss the chance to stop the next one that comes through my checkpoint.

Again, you are mistaking me for some other person. TSA’s job is not to “catch” terrorists, but as so many folks here take such pains to point out we are there to stop or prevent the introduction of WEI onto a commercial aircraft.

Yes, many (not all certainly) are perfectly legal to poses. I have a CHP, and it is perfectly legal to have my weapon, but not everywhere. Just as it is not legal to bring knives clubs and certain other things through our checkpoints. And yes, many just plain forget that they have these items with them, which is why the vast majority of those who bring them are not cited or arrested. The legality of possessing these things is conditional, and always has been.

And as we all know, WEI can include personal checks in a passenger's pocket. Why else would a woman pax have been stopped and interrogated about them, LE called and attempts made to contact her husband to verify that she wasn't leaving him?

Sharp-edged checks?

Come on now... checks are made of paper, and paper can be set on fire.

Clearly, these are incendiaries.

TSORON(IF he is one)or ANY smurf being capable of stopping determined individuals who are well financed and carefully planned in their actions from committing an attack?, ROFLMAO

Well, if you, or your agency or your procedures to not know how to identify one, we are in much more danger that I thought.

You claim to be on the front line in the fight against terrorism and you are asking me, a stupid online commenter that lies and uses useless rhetoric to tell how to identify a terrorist?

Oh, wait, that was sarcasm. I almost missed it. I thought you were admitting that you really do not know what you are doing. My mistake. Sorry.

Hi TSORon. Thanks for responding to my post. Many of us on both sides can appreciate a thought provoking post. Why not just mention at the get-go that you're trying to provoke some conversation or even add a "What do you think?" before submitting it? I can understand not wanting to "taint" the post with your own perspective, but it would make create less confusion.

You have to admit, you do seem to be controversial around here. I'm not sure that's deserved but you know it's because you self-identify as TSO. I think that's a good thing but I can see it causes you some grief. There are still some people on FT who are interested to hear opinions from all sides. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's how I learn.

BTW, I don't mean to beat you up, but I had almost forgot about the condescending and combative use of sir until I read your post. I see you've been using it a lot lately. Saying "you sir" is normally proceeded by a good thrashing, often with a walking stick. It was a not uncommon practice in the 19th century. If you really want to be respectful, I'd drop the "you" part and just use Sir or use language like the rest of us "I'm sorry, but you're wrong....." "Thank you for your opinion, but..."

You may be a small cog in the great machine, but we all have the power to influence our environment in small ways. Most of us, myself included, have to lead by example. We all make small choices every day. I'm sure you do too. In your case, it might be the decision you make every day to say a kind word to someone (coworker or passenger) and being professional instead of snapping at someone and making their day difficult. I don't just mention this because you're in government, but there are many studies that show how a work environment can turn sour because of the lack of positive leadership by even one person.

BTW, "coming out of my lurker-hood"? Is that really what you think of me? And here I thought I've been so nice to you. I really see myself more as that flea in the carpet that jumps up and bites your ankle to remind you that I'm down here. :D

It is the way things were, not as they are. The people did speak. The people spoke in 1789 and 1974 and demanded that the Government operate in open light of day and within very clearly defined limits. Its present president promised open government operating not under the cover of darkness and secrecy, but in the clear light of open exchange of information and transparence. The majority of citizens have serious problems with the government's failure to operate in the open and with its actions in obfuscating these matters.

There is an important distinction. The people, in panic, spoke hastily and created your agency and DHS, its master. The nation had high hopes that this would strengthen our ability to deal with the root causes. We, the people, failed in creating your agencies. The old saw: Act in haste, repent in leisure has never been more true. It is our fault. Not yours. We must correct our hasty actions and we will.

HR 2200, the TSA Reauthorization Act, passed by the House last summer, had a number of provisions to curtail some of the more obvious and egregious abuses of citizens and businesses by your agency.

Included in these are:
Amdt 2: Limits the ability of TSA to bypass the Administrative Procedures act by limiting the duration of security directives to less than 180 days unless an NPRM has been issued for public comment, effectively ending "secret/sensitive security information" based rules and procedures.

Amdt 3: Established procedures for "alternative screening procedures" for individuals with TS clearances.

Amdt 4: Expedited screening for members of the Armed Services under orders and their families.

Amdt 5: Orders TSA to report to Congress within 6 months, complaints and claims against the TSA for loss of passenger property.

Amdt 8: Directs the TSA to use risk based competitive bidding on new grant programs, and if they fail to do so, requires the TSA head to explain to Congress why.

Amdt 10: Prohibits the use of WBI and requires TSA to provide Opt-Out as a matter of law. Further prohibits TSA from storing/copying/transferring images.

Amdt 12: Requires the TSA to begin an canine air cargo screening program.

TSORon,
This bill passed the House by a vote of 397-25. It has not yet been passed by the Senate, but only because other business kept the Senate occupied. But a bill with those amendments passing by that great a majority will likely be passed in similar form in the 112th Congress and the Senate will have more time to consider what it wants to do with your agency. Like an errant child, Congress has had to repeatedly remind your masters what their true mission is, and like a recalcitrant child, your agency persistently fails to listen and take corrective actions.

The people are about to speak again.

Well stated, thank you^

I'm sure the TSA does. I'm also sure the private sector firms found just as many in the years before, without the $8.2 billion annual price tag. Why would the Government Accountability Office say the TSA is no better than what we had before? Keep in mind that lax checkpoint security was not the cause of 9/11. That's something that "citizens who demand better security" forget when they fail to use critical thinking skills.

And don't forget that law enforcement professionals have about the same number of "Oh, crap!" moments at the airport as law-abiding citizens with concealed carry permits when they try to go through the checkpoint with a firearm.

The TSA likes to trot out the number of weapons caught at the checkpoint every week on the front page of the website, giving the impression that we are under siege by a continuous stream of terrorists, but in fact the TSA has never caught a terrorist.



I don't believe anybody is being paid to post in this forum. ;) Spreading disinformation, well that's another story... :p

Ron, as a public service I provide you with the following Terrorist ID Training Seminar. Part of me laments that this is necessary with all the taxes, fees and surcharges the flying public already pays, but as good 'ol Nappy says, "Security is everyone responsibility!!"

Please pay careful attention

THESE ARE TERRORISTS


THESE ARE NOT TERRORISTS

Now, go get 'em Tiger!

Class dismissed.

If terrorists have turned Americans against their government, it's because of what the government claims it has had to do to protect Americans from terrorism. That includes, but is not limited to, the heavy-handed and questionable measures employed by the TSA. And yes, if Americans are turning against their government because of creations like the TSA, the terrorists are winning. That's fairly obvious and has been mentioned numerous times by people on this forum.

And while it's not unreasonable to say that Americans expect a level of security from their government, and that many approve of and are willing to submit to TSA's practices, it is less reasonable to expect that there would be wholehearted acceptance of practices which are inconsistent, at times abusive, not obviously more effective than pre-9/11 measures, and which are designed and implemented seemingly without oversight or accountability.

So "anon" really hasn't provided any sort of revelation, and your claim that it has made you re-examine your thinking is more self-serving than anything. The post sounds more like something created by someone who thinks the TSA is being unfairly maligned for its indefensible policies, and who is cynically trying to deflect the criticism onto regular Americans.

So where is the terrorist in that article? :confused:

The kid with the mask wasn't a terrorist. Neither did he break any laws that I know of.

No threat to aviation there. No threat to the other passengers. No threat to the destination country, unless wearing a disguise is some kind of security issue now that isn't caught by competent ID checking.

I suppose growing a beard could be considered "artful concealment" of ones face, and now is a violation of the secret SOP.

If this is the official food-for-thought thread...
 

Roger Ebert: Where I draw the line...

It appears that not a single TSA agent has declined to perform a full-body pat down of airline passengers. That includes patting down small children. They're not patted down on a routine basis, but on some occasions they can be and they are. A child under 12, sometimes way under 12, may be required to remove outer clothing and be touched on such areas as the genitals.

Would you take this job? I don't believe I would. But it's worth reflecting that employment as a TSA agent is a good job in these hard times of high unemployment. The starting pay is $12.85 an hour, better than Wendy's for an employee who needs only a high school diploma. It goes higher. The 40 hours of training are paid for by the government. Agents are given uniforms, badges, "a choice of health care plans," and power.

When they were first hired, the job consisted of looking at x-rays of hand luggage, passing a wand near a passenger, and watching them walk through a metal detector, and sometimes performing a non-intimate pat down. Now they have to look at x-ray scans of the bodies of every passenger boarding an airline. Those who refuse the scanners or otherwise raise questions are given a full-body pat down. Until recently this involved using the backs of the hands. Now it involves what can only be described as a tactful grope.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010..._the_line.html

Finding Hidden Explosives - An Impossible Task...

There is nothing new about plastic explosive. In one form or another, it has been around since 1875, and most common plastic explosives in use today date back to the 1960s.

Evolving types of terrorist activity seem to suggest that terrorists are now more focused on blowing planes up with plastic explosive, rather than simply hijacking them. Accordingly, our airport security seeks to detect not just guns and knives but also explosives as well.

Unfortunately, the amount of explosive needed to destroy a plane is very small, and due to its plastic nature, it can easily be discreetly hidden on, around, or in one's body.

Detecting artfully concealed plastic explosive is impossible by all normal and socially acceptable methods.

http://www.thetravelinsider.info/sec...explosives.htm

Or as I've been hearing on the news lately ...

"This is the way the world is now. Deal with it." :td:

Excuse me gentlemen. This isn't a game, it's an attempt at some meaningful dialogue about a relevant topic for travelers among members of FlyerTalk. Appreciate your support to keep it that way.

Thank you.

Well, Ronnie, even those of us in TS&S want better security. The problem is that TSA doesn't provide it, as GAO tests, investigations and findings have repeatedly concluded.

We demand it, TSA won't provide it. What it does provide is abysmal and invasive. We have a big problem here.

I can't speak for him, but it seems to me he did. He is still out a brother, and no matter how you poo-poo that. Ironically, the government accords the 9/11 families who lost people prematurely a much higher level of respect than you are according someone who lost someone in the line of duty. That's pretty low.

Wow ... a foster parent is serving your country? :rolleyes:

Again, go back to the 9/11 families. It's hypocritical for the government (and those who work for it) to treat them as special for their loss and denegrate someone who lost family in the line of duty.

Many of us here, Ronnie, have government service in the military and civil sectors. You are no more special.

Same question back at you, Ronnie. What makes you more American (you have directly claimed that) than any of us?

I question that motive. I think this was bait and a veiled swipe, and sadly, many of us took it.

So that's what you're calling all the liquids and small pocket knives confiscated and at the airports? :rolleyes:

I'm sure they're found in the garbage cans at the check point. :rolleyes:

We've been given "more" by the TSA alright ...

Weak and silly comeback Ron. Plus, a few salient points you overlooked:

1). The incident had nothing to do with terrorism.

1) The Canadian Border Services Agency apprehended the disguise wearer. Or did I miss the part discussing the contributory role of the mighty TSA?

2). Your masked man BOARDED & COMPLETED the 14 hour flight. In other words he succeeded and you and your ilk FAILED.

(PS-can't wait to see the names you call me!)

Kippie once stated that TSA is pretty much geared to catch only the dumb terrorists. Their effectiveness at doing that is debatable at best.

No. Please see the poster below. I'm sure it could use some updating though.

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tletoon/TSA_revised.jpg

*I must confess I'm the original creator of this poster. :)

Ever since Ron made that legendary claim, many of us have asked him to explain how he is more American than the rest of us. We're still waiting for his response.