Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14837531)

You think it's a trick question (and yes; I know what BD was getting to), but I don't really think it is a trick question. The public may or may not know what pat-downs we do, but common sense should prevail - at least on the part of the passenger. Did the TSO slap your body? Did they pinch you? Did they give you advisement? Did the TSO tell you what was happening and why (you alarmed the WTMD, opt out from WBI, random, etc? And I could go on.

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14837531)

I do not believe and never will (though your welcome to try and change my mind) that you need to know the exact procedure for a passenger to know if they were treated with respect and if the pat-down was the appropriate.

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14837531)

For example, if by chance you do receive the so-called enhanced pat-down, and your not told why, the process is not described to you before hand, and private screening is not offered, even if the physical act of the pat-down was 100% correct, the entire process was inappropriate, and you have no practical recourse.

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14837531)

I do not believe and never will (though your welcome to try and change my mind) that you need to know the exact procedure for a passenger to know if they were treated with respect and if the pat-down was the appropriate.

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14837531)

You think it's a trick question (and yes; I know what BD was getting to), but I don't really think it is a trick question. The public may or may not know what pat-downs we do, but common sense should prevail - at least on the part of the passenger. Did the TSO slap your body? Did they pinch you? Did they give you advisement? Did the TSO tell you what was happening and why (you alarmed the WTMD, opt out from WBI, random, etc? And I could go on.

I do not believe and never will (though your welcome to try and change my mind) that you need to know the exact procedure for a passenger to know if they were treated with respect and if the pat-down was the appropriate.

For example, if by chance you do receive the so-called enhanced pat-down, and your not told why, the process is not described to you before hand, and private screening is not offered, even if the physical act of the pat-down was 100% correct, the entire process was inappropriate.

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14837564)

If you receive the enhanced pat-down you will be asked to bring a witness. If you are not traveling with anyone, my advise is to ask for an airline representative or a LEO to be your witness. If you do ask for that, the procedure will not start till your witness is there.

And if you really want to refuse the private screening - well I've answered that earlier, but we had established people here don't read. I guess they are too angry to do so, and just want to snap off a response? Just guessing...

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14837314)

I have to ask, because I am not sure what you mean, but what does being patted down "in an inappropriate way" mean to you?

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14837564)

If you receive the enhanced pat-down you will be asked to bring a witness. If you are not traveling with anyone, my advise is to ask for an airline representative or a LEO to be your witness. If you do ask for that, the procedure will not start till your witness is there.

Originally Posted by docmonkey (Post 14840914)

TSA Bob, could you please clarify? The answers we are getting in this thread are confusing. Your http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/08/enhanced-pat-downs.html blog post doesn't mention witnesses or private pat downs. We need some clarity from an official source so we can know when a screener has overstepped the bounds of what is allowed by the agency. Your post is so vague. When we are talking about possibly allowing our children's bodies to be touched by TSA employees, we want specificity.

From your user profile it appears your last activity on FT was yesterday at 10:32 AM, so I would appreciate some clarifications about patting down passengers. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 14841478)

I'm starting to think that some who identify themselves as TSA are just plants with the mission to confuse any topic when discussing TSA procedures.

Originally Posted by chollie (Post 14809129)

I hope I am misunderstanding you here.

I do believe that some folks have experienced a frisk that involved cupping genitals, stroking a hand down the buttocks cleft, touching breasts, and palming buttocks. This isn't just folks of both genders reporting, bystanders have also reported seeing it. To pretend otherwise is to say, in effect, that there's no TSO who would go over the line, but there are passengers who would go over the line and make up a story. Sorry, that doesn't fly. Remember Rolando Negrin?

There's also enough reports that I consider credible that folks with bulky clothing get subjected to extra scrutiny, even going through the WTMD. And that the AIT can't reliably penetrate bulky layers (like a surgical dressing), so an additional patdown is required.

At least one TSO on this forum mentioned visual confirmation, and I believe when TSA was originally asked about folks with colostomy bags, etc, there was mention of 'questioning' to resolve the issues. (??) Someone with a fake surgical device is going to tell the truth when questioned?

There's a few too many specific reports out there for me to believe that it isn't as invasive or rough as reported.

Should it be that way? No. Do you do it that way? You say you don't. Can you be sure that other TSOs don't do it that way? No. I think you (or any TSO) really put people's backs up when you routinely give TSOs the benefit of the doubt and rarely give the passenger the benefit of a doubt.

I would think it's in your best interests to self-police. If I were frisking a pax and I looked over to see other TSOs standing watching, I would immediately stop what I was doing and ask them why they are watching. I would refuse to continue the screening as long as they were watching. I would make it clear to the pax that frisking is not a spectator sport. The truth is, if you're in a situation like that and you don't confront or report your fellow TSOs, you are tacitly supporting their behavior. TSOs post on this forum and the blog about how stressful it gets when jerk passengers come through the checkpoint, how stressful, implying that maybe they subsequently take out their hostility on the next pax in line. Unprofessional. Further, it works both ways. If I have a bad encounter with a TSO (or someone close to me does or I observe a total stranger being mistreated by a TSO), I approach the next encounter with foreboding. At that point, if you say 'good morning', I'm not likely to be in a mood to respond in kind.

In short, you ask us to give you the benefit of a doubt. Please do the same in return. Not all pax go to a checkpoint with a chip on their shoulder (most don't). Not all TSOs have integrity and respect the pax. Most do, but if even one TSO has a chip on his/her shoulder, he affects a LOT of pax in just one day.



Yes, our society has puritanical roots. Those puritanical roots mean that most folks aren't comfortable with nudity or being frisked. Most folks wouldn't be comfortable viewing the nudity or doing the frisking either.

If TSA can learn to frisk open-palmed and look at virtually nude images, then surely if a pax is willing, TSA shouldn't balk at someone who chooses actual nudity over being touched.

Originally Posted by Jetbee (Post 14809174)

EXCUSE ME?! When someone is patting down my breasts (in front of a bunch of other TSO's and passengers), I call that invasive!!! :mad: I would never allow my husband to touch me like that in public so why should I allow a screener to do so? And, for the sake of all those reading along, a screening officer has done this to me two times already.

BTW, law enforcement is not allowed to do a patdown in my country (touching genitals/breasts) unless they have a reason that will stand up in court (not sure of the laws in the U.S.). But, screeners get to do whatever they want in the name of "keeping the country secure". What a load of $#@%.

You know, until you made that statement above, I was fairly agreeable with the info you have posted in this thread. But, now, all I see another TSO with 'tude.

Originally Posted by chollie (Post 14809251)

If I understand correctly, the wand won't detect explosives. The frisk is to detect anomalies, ie the underpants bomber's 'package'.

Why can't an opt-out passenger be wanded with the regular wand, then wanded again with a 'wand' with an explosive-testing swab on it? I'd rather be touched with a wand than a hand (even though I understand some TSOs get creative in using the wand, particularly with women wearing skirts).

Wands don't clutch and grab.

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14853861)

I agree about many things you say here - foremost being that we should police ourselves, that is something I have been preaching and practicing since I got here. If you see something wrong, tell the person that is doing it wrong, what is right and help them get it right. I am not giving every TSO the benfit of the doubt, just that the information I have conflicts with some of the things I have heard here. That being said, I can't discuss specifics on SOP and procedures, but there is some conflict between what some here are saying and what I have heard. I do not defend TSOs that do what they are not supposed to - so I hope that you and some of the other folks here don't take it that way. Every bad experience (for whatever reason) makes my job harder, so I do not like bad experiences for any passenger. As far as balking over nudity, I personally would not do so, but that is something that would have to be discussed at a higher level than me.



I did not mean to say anything against you, or your commentary. I am not saying what you posted here did not happen to you, merely that some of the reports I have been reading and hearing from people at different airports do not match up. I try to take my time in commenting on policies, and I want to give the EPD a chance to be reviewed and implemented where I have a chance to see it in action before I comment on it. Not 'tude, simply waiting and commenting on information I recieved from other sources. All it takes is one TSO to do something wrong for a day to make for bad press for us for a month or so (not that this is wrong, just that it doesn't work both ways). Please don't take my commentary as a shot at you, it is just that I have information from other sources that is different than what you have said.



The wand does not detect explosives, only metal.

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14853861)

I did not mean to say anything against you, or your commentary. I am not saying what you posted here did not happen to you, merely that some of the reports I have been reading and hearing from people at different airports do not match up. I try to take my time in commenting on policies, and I want to give the EPD a chance to be reviewed and implemented where I have a chance to see it in action before I comment on it. Not 'tude, simply waiting and commenting on information I recieved from other sources. All it takes is one TSO to do something wrong for a day to make for bad press for us for a month or so (not that this is wrong, just that it doesn't work both ways). Please don't take my commentary as a shot at you, it is just that I have information from other sources that is different than what you have said.

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14853861)

The wand does not detect explosives, only metal.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 14854857)

In regards to the highlighted text above, are you suggesting that travelers should know if something is wrong?

Pray tell, how can we know these things since TSA will not divulge what things they will inflict on common citizens?

edit to add:

You again elude to "Enhanced" pat downs not being deployed at your airport yet I believe you have stated you are trained and can do these types of pat downs.

Is your airport allowed to do "Enhanced" pat downs are not? Are you personally trained to do this form of pat down?

As a side note, a discussion of interrogation tactics at CIA defined the meaning of "Enhanced". In that context it meant torture. Does TSA use "Enhanced" in the same light?

Originally Posted by Jetbee (Post 14857655)

But, in this instance, your comments are wrong. You may not be aware of this but EPD's are being done in Canada on a random basis (and have been for quite some time now) because it is a requirement of the TSA/US Government for passengers entering the USA by air. Yes, they were not even subjecting their own country to this type of screening but were demanding it be done by another country. And, unfortunately, the Canadian government has not got the cojones to stand up to them and say NO.

So, indeed, this disgusting type of screening is definitely invasive and some passengers flying into your country are being subjected to it every single day... all of this just to please the U.S. government. And, whether you choose to believe it or not, one of those people is me.

Originally Posted by chollie (Post 14862728)

Not being snarky, but reread my post. I asked why there couldn't be a regular wanding followed by a 'wanding' with an explosive swab. I suggested putting the swab on the end of a 'wand' and swabbing the same areas that have just been wanded. More comprehensive than just swabbing hands and shoes, for example. less 'intimate' than a frisk.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 14854857)

In regards to the highlighted text above, are you suggesting that travelers should know if something is wrong?

Pray tell, how can we know these things since TSA will not divulge what things they will inflict on common citizens?

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14867715)

Also, the comment above was made in reference to self policing, but if you see something that is wrong or you feel is wrong, then please say something. Your definition of wrong may be different than other people involved in the situation, but you are always free to speak up about it.^

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 14867788)

So I take it that you are perfectly happy to be required to comply with rules that you have no knowledge of?

Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer (Post 14867969)

Repeat after me: "Double secret probation"....:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14867691)

I have not been trained on the EPD, that is the reason I have stated what I have read, and received from other sources to be my basis for commentary. What I have seen described by some folks here, and what I have been told by folks actually doing the procedure are different. I hav ebeen trained in pat down procedures, but not this specific one.

Originally Posted by docmonkey (Post 14868254)

That is SATTSO, who claims to not be a TSO and seems to have disappeared.

Originally Posted by chollie (Post 14789312)

Kind of splitting hairs, aren't you? And I was just trying to understand, not play word games. So a passenger who has opted out of WBI for medical reasons (unable to assume and hold the position) who has a dressing on a wound that shouldn't be handled harshly can realize there's no way to satisfy screening requirements (remember, I said in my original post someone who had to medically opt-out of WBI - a wheelchair pax, for instance). So passenger realizes the only way to satisfy screening requirements (drum roll, please: for the safety of all!) without undue pain and/or risk of infection. Passenger says 'no'.

Originally Posted by chollie (Post 14789312)

So the part you didn't answer before (and I asked in good faith, I feel that you replied in a misleading manner) was that after I say 'no', you summon LEOs to process me out of the area since there's no viable way to complete the screening process.

Originally Posted by chollie (Post 14789312)

I get all that. In your earlier answer, heavily padded with TSA fluff (where did I say I doubted your mission or the importance thereof), you said that ultimately someone may effectively say 'no' - as with someone who has a surgical dressing and can't assume and hold the WBI position. Other TSOs have acknowledged that 'bulk' has to be resolved. The underwear bomber's 'bulk' is the justification for cupping and squeezing balls. Surgical dressings can be soft and bulky, obviously capable of concealing something.

Originally Posted by tanja (Post 14789673)

I do respect that you cant talk about certain things. But I am still very concerned. What would you do with my granson who cant communicate at all except with the closest family. He will not understand plus he would bite strangers.

Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 14790236)

That's not what I was taught when I went to school! I learned that this nation was founded by people who specifically rejected the "tyranny of the majority" and recognized the diversity of all religious and moral views and that no law or regulation of the government can give any more weight to one such moral system over any other.

Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 14790236)

I want to make sure that I understood the above correctly. Are you saying that there are circumstances (I understand that you can't be specific about what those circumstances might be) where a person may required to have pain inflicted on them in order for them to fly and that this may be done to a disabled person because of their disability?

Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 14870379)

200 years have passed since then. Just how much of our world do you think the founding fathers would recognize and be able to deal with?

Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 14870379)

After more than 3 decades of airport security, and nearly 8 years at this level, people know the basics of what’s going to happen at the checkpoint. There should be no real surprises, after all we have the internet, the TSA web site, places like Flyertalk and other web sites dedicated to the traveling public, a whole plethora of information available to you the passenger. If you are surprised by what happens at the checkpoint then you didn’t prepare.

No, its not because of their disability, its because of their decision.

Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 14870379)

I didn’t think of it as hair splitting. It was as forthright an answer as I could give to the question asked. Now that you have clarified a bit I can give a better answer.

We have procedures for dealing with wheelchair bound passengers. We see them all the time and they fly, all the time. There are also several ways to clear a wound dressing, but again I can’t get into specifics.

If a passenger is so egregiously injured that they cannot be touched, they cannot undergo AIT screening, or that they cannot undergo WTMD screening, most likely they are not going to be at the airport anyway. For that one in a million who do anyway, they take the chance that they will not be able to get through screening.

There is another option though. I cannot speak as to how effective it might be in getting someone with all these issues through screening but I have seen it used once or twice. Call the TSA CSM for your airport and discuss the issues with them. They “may” be able to come up with alternatives or specific directives on how to get the passenger to their flight.



If one knows that they cannot complete the screening process, then they should not start. If one does not know but finds out in the middle of the process then we have a procedure in place for getting that person back out of the checkpoint without exposing the sterile area. Our calling a LEO does not mean that someone is going to jail, its just another part of procedure that we are required to follow.


Sorry, I don’t do AIT screening, but I cannot think of a situation where a TSO is going to be required to “cup a passengers testicles”. [polite]I am of the opinion that those folks claiming such are stretching the truth quite a bit.[/polite]



LOL, wouldn’t be the first kid to bite me. Obviously he cant fly by himself, he is going to need someone to escort him and I can assume given what you say that it will be someone who knows him well and whom he knows well. Given that, special needs children (I have 6 of my own, so this is an area where I can speak with confidence) require some preparation for the checkpoint experience. I could go into an entire lengthy explanation on what I would do, but it might be best if you consult a professional in your local area. His doctor, therapist, psychologist, etc..



200 years have passed since then. Just how much of our world do you think the founding fathers would recognize and be able to deal with?



Ahh, I feel you trying to back me into a corner here. Buzzzzz, no score for you, thank you very much for playing our game. Be sure to pick up your parting prize as you go out the door.

After more than 3 decades of airport security, and nearly 8 years at this level, people know the basics of what’s going to happen at the checkpoint. There should be no real surprises, after all we have the internet, the TSA web site, places like Flyertalk and other web sites dedicated to the traveling public, a whole plethora of information available to you the passenger. If you are surprised by what happens at the checkpoint then you didn’t prepare.

No, its not because of their disability, its because of their decision.

Originally Posted by tanja (Post 14870708)

Are you talking about preperation from the parents?

This kid has a something called Zell Weager Syndrome. A lot of die an early death.

He is still alaive thanks to alternative medicine. (another story) He is 95 % death. And doctors couldnt figure that out until 2 years ago. Even if the family suspected it.
We know his moves and so on. He cant commuicate with strangers at all.
His doctor says just to leave him be.
Nobody else is involved at that level that have any input at all.

He is terrified of strangers.

He would not let anybody touch him. Doesnt matter if parents hold him. You just cant explain that to him.His is very protective of his body.

I am just worried about him if they would fly.

And I have 6 kids of my own and one step kid. So I do know kids to.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 14870757)

You don't understand, TSORon is a Security Expert, he said so!

Originally Posted by tanja (Post 14870908)

He really didnt say anything how they would handle it.
Plus he doesnt speak english at all. He doesnt speak period.
He is swedish.

Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 14870379)

If a passenger is so egregiously injured that they cannot be touched, they cannot undergo AIT screening, or that they cannot undergo WTMD screening, most likely they are not going to be at the airport anyway. For that one in a million who do anyway, they take the chance that they will not be able to get through screening.

Originally Posted by chollie (Post 14870921)

It's OK, lots of TSOs know how to TALK REALLY LOUD (it's called 'barking').

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14867715)

[Your definition of wrong may be different than other people involved in the situation, but you are always free to speak up about it.^

Originally Posted by rgfloor (Post 14871142)

Your definition of wrong may be different than other people involved in the situation, but you are always free to speak up about it.^

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14867691)

Again, from what I have read and been told, what you have been describing and what actually is supposed to happen are different. I am sorry that I can't go into detail or give more info on the steps or specific protocols, but know there is a difference in what is being described. Have you contacted TSA HQ directly about what has happened? If not, I can post you the info for contacting them for you if you need. Please do not take this as a brushoff, but there really is nothing I can do for you in my capacity as a frontliner. If you feel that what has happened to you is inappropriate, please contact TSA HQ. (also, it is not a matter of not believing you, it is a matter of having different information as to what is supposed to take place and what you are saying is actually happening to you)

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 14868298)

You are correct and I retracted my question.

Originally Posted by docmonkey (Post 14868120)

It seems like if you had to go through a TSA checkpoint at another airport, you wouldn't even know what would constitute an inappropriately invasive pat down. Is that right?

Originally Posted by rgfloor (Post 14871142)

To whom? Will anyone listen?

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 14872185)

Wow go away for a few days because of a family emergency and the fangs come out. Nice. ;)

Originally Posted by Jetbee (Post 14872100)

Just to be clear, I am well aware that you can do nothing to help the situation that I am subjected to quite regularly nor did I expect that you could. I can also tell from the info above that you have little or no knowledge about the protocol for screening of passengers entering the U. S. from Canada. And it is quite obvious that you have absolutely no idea who even does the screening at pre-clearance check-points.

Perhaps you think that your "I have different information than you do" answer is impressive to those reading along but, in fact, I would bet that I know more about this issue than you do. It's time to do your homework...

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14872949)

I can post the contact info for TSA and DHS here, I have done so several times previously and will be happy to do so again. There are ways to contact each individual airports TSA staff, there is the "Talk To TSA" site, there are a list of ways for someone to contact TSA and ultimately DHS if you are unhappy with the response you get from TSA. As to whom will hear or respond, I can't not say, but there are avenues of communication that you can use.

Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14872962)

I was speaking of the pat down here and many of the complaints I have read and seen in the media and blogosphere do not jibe with what information I have - not that they didn't happen, just that it does not match with the information I have as to what is supposed to be happening.