Narrow minds abound, touting claims that arent even definitions in laws.

When you hold a hammer, along with a propensity to power trip every thing looks like a nail.

So you're saying that we must X-ray everything in which people can hide such items?

Almost anything that can be concealed with a belt (or in the sole of a shoe) can be concealed in armpits, crotches, pockets, mouths, and rectums (just last month, a man who was headed for prison smuggled a cigarette lighter, rolling papers, a bag of tobacco the size of a golf ball, a smaller bag of marijuana, a 1-inch smoking pipe, a bottle of tattoo ink and eight tattoo needles in his rectum).

Your policies won't stop a determined criminal. Why do you continue to impose them on the rest of us? You're not stopping people from causing harm on airplanes; people simply aren't trying to do so.

but to be fair, are the knives in the picture you linked metal or plastic? can't tell from the image alone. if metal, then it's not a valid argument as the wtmd should be picking it up

bolding mine: careful......the x-ray machines do not detect explosives on their own. if a sheet of explosives, it would have to be of a different density than the belt so it would show the contrasting image of the sheet against the belt :)

You may know all there is to know from a medical/EMT perspective, but you have no background in LE judging from your posts. Most folks may not be knife fighting experts; they usually wield the knife blade up, limit their strikes primarily to the torso in an effort to go for the deep penetration wound. Those that have knife fighting skills generally attempt for multiple small laceration wounds on the arms, legs, and torso until their opponent is exhausted, enters shock, or bleeds out from a well placed laceration. Furthermore, knives ARE INDEED A THREAT; not to cockpit security or hull integrity, but to the passengers. Oh, I know...everyone's a Rambo...puhleeze.

Agreed. The policies in this regard make no sense whatsoever.

That's not accurate concerning FAM involvement. Additionally, in every single incident reference passengers subduing folks "stepping out of line" the suspect WAS NOT ARMED. How many of your super vigilant pax are going to step up to the plate against a suspect armed with a knife or a firearm?

TB

agreed, agreed and i will. i have done if before back when i was a bouncer in a bar where a "patron" decided to pull a knife when i told him he couldn't leave with his opened bottle. first thing i did was step back beyond arm's reach and then grabbed the first thing i saw to defend myself (which happened to be a tray on the counter). he lunged as you described above and it was an easy deflection of the knife and then he promptly "fell down" (ok, he was body blocked into the wall and fell) and was restrained by me and others until the police arrived. if on a plane, someone might not like me taking their laptop but that will work just as well. foolish yes, but i'd do it again on a knife (but on a firearm, nope as that why you get paid the big bucks ;))

You are correct, there is a more dense selection of populace that have narrow minds on this site.:rolleyes:

True about the belt buckle, however there is a large selection of ceramic and carbon fiber blades available in the same format that will not alarm. Even a sharp plastic (the reinforced plastic mind you) can be used almost the same as a regular steel knife.

You are correct on the density variation. I never claim that anything is 100%, however, if a belt is very dense, almost every xray operator I have worked with will at least look at the belt, if not have someone else check it.

The problem with not searching for items like these is the fact that we are supposed to protect all the passengers (essentially that is the whole mission statement distilled). When we allow these on, or stop searching for them it places passengers at risk. Again, nothing will ever be 100%, it is simply about doing the best job that you can with the rules and equipment you have.

I agree as well. Knife fighting is a dirty way to go about it, and even someone with no idea what they are doing can get lucky. Most people faced with a knife in an enclosed space would not even consider taking on the person - however, there is a much larger selection of people that would rush them now than before. Even with the training from my past (quickly becoming ancient past it seems), I would be hard pressed to do much more than tie most guys up until someone else could help (clarification - I am 6'2" and about 300 lbs - movement in an airplane is dodgy at best, in a flying airplane it becomes a matter of mass crammed into a small space, all while trying to counter the airplanes movements).:D

Might I also suggest that the pilots could do plenty to disrupt a passenger with a knife.

i agree completely-i was just being my pita self ;) to make sure that both sides of the picture posted by TSO1973 are in play ;). now if i may, a question about belts and their removal.....are pax required to remove their belts? the reason i ask is that since i'm the orthopedic shoe terrorist ;), i am reminded about my belt when i am about go thru the wtmd where i respond that it never alarms and that's it-the only time i have any "issues" is when the wtmd gatekeeper tso does not know the definition of orthopedic shoes :rolleyes: and i win a retaliatory (where i proceed to ruin the tso's day [and contrary to popular belief, i cut tso's a lot of slack, and i mean a lot of slack, as long as they play by the rules] but i digress). so with all of that, if pax are not required to remove their belts and the belt does not alarm, there is, imho and afaic, a very very big security hole just waiting to be exploited (if it hasn't already been)


bolding mine: the problem is that most people would rush the person with the knife straight on and would probably end up causing more harm to themselves ;)

Direct quote from a LEO, "We get involved in artful concealment situations because it shows intent to get an item past the checkpoint into the sterile area. Whether we pursue charges or citations is on a case by case basis after interviewing the passenger".

Is artful concealment unlawful?
 

You didn't answer my question. Is artful concealment unlawful?

Well since I am not a LEO or a lawyer, that's not for me to answer. I gave you the answer I was given.

Oh, okay. New question: Do you think artful concealment is unlawful?

If you were given an answer, you must have asked a question. What question did you ask? "We get involved... because..." is not an answer to the question, "Is ____ unlawful?"

Police don't magically get involved. If they get involved in cases of artful concealment, it's almost certainly because you requested their involvement. Do you request involvement of police when you discover something you believe has been artfully concealed? If so, why do you do so?

We request the involvement of LE when an item is believed to be artfully concealed because that is what is written in the SOP.

As far as the legality of artfully concealed items, I don't know the answer to that. My best guess is yes, it is illegal.

According to 49 CFR § 1540.105 (a)No person may; (1)Tamper or interfere with, compromise, modify, attempt to circumvent, or cause a person to tamper or interfere with, compromise, modify, or attempt to circumvent any security system, measure, or procedure implemented under this subchapter.

Artful concealment would be seen as an attempt to circumvent the security process. You believe that an item in your possession is not allowed(item does not need to be prohibited) and you attempt to hide it, in order to prevent the discovery of said item.

ORDofcr, do you believe that an attempt to take a prohibited item past the TSA barricade without artfully concealing it is any less of an attempt to circumvent such measures than doing so with artful concealment is? What if someone "attempted to hide" the item by concealing it in his suitcase -- would you see that as an attempt to "circumvent the security process"?

No, average people are smart enough to understand that their suitcase is going to go through the x-ray machine and that we can see the contents of the suitcase displayed on our screens. For instance:Woman stopped at TDC and asked if it was ok for her to bring her stun gun through the CP. TDC told her no, but she could go check it in. Woman left TDC and returned 5 minuted later "without" stun gun. Placed her bag into the x-ray and (wow! what a surprise) she put the stun gun in her purse. Artful concealment, no. Stupid, yes.
Another example: Guy has a part of a screw driver(non-prohibited) and puts it in his shoe below the sole of the shoe in order to "prevent" us from seeing this because he thought it was prohibited. Artful concealment, yes.
We get a lot of people who "wrap" things like pocket knives and liquids in aluminum foil, because they think that it will block the x-rays from seeing what is in their bags. Could we follow up for artful concealment, probably. Do we usually, no. STSO's don't want to do the paperwork.
What makes me laugh every time, is when I get sent to the international terminal and constantly have to wand, well, one certain group of people, who wrap their money in aluminum foil and keep it on their person as they walk through the metal detector. I mean, come on... Really??
Also, items such as cane swords, umbrella swords, and other items made to look non-prohibited but containing prohibited items, MAY be seen as artfully concealed.

In the TSA Civil Sanctions guide, artful concealment is an aggravating factor.(I believe. That's just from memory, but I know that A.C. is in there somewhere.)