On the train home today, I had a chance to discuss the AZ legislation with the conductor. Or, more accurately, interject my comment that any law that would imprison a citizen for failure to carry identification was inherently vilative of Constitutional principles. That led to a discussion about ID, which is what led to this post.

The conductor is educated. The other members of this conversation are educated. More importantly, the don't seem like ignorant bumpkins. Yet, they believe that every person should be required to produce ID on the demand of a LEO. My argument that the verification of ID by the TDC was ineffective because it fails to detect anything (i.e. The discussion regarding false BP at TDC, real BP at gate) and is singularly irrelevant as it does nothing to protect against WEI at the expense of scope creep was brushed off. Finally, for the MARCers here, the conductor asserted that all passengers are required to display ID on the train, on demand. not only is this not supported by the documentation, but it was refuted by MTA customer service. His attempts to justify this assertion by expanding the ID on demand on train requirement for holders of senior/disability to all passengers was met with approval. And worst of all, "[I] don't realize that 9/11 changed everything."

And so I ask, how do we educate the willfully blind?

There is nothing you can do really.

Anyone with a firm grasp of history (especially WWII and the Cold War) should be aware that not having to present "your papers please" was a point of pride among Americans.

This is a lazy way of enforcing our laws, and serves to only reduce our rights. I'm very much anti-illegal immigration, but this law is un-American...or at least un-"what America used to be about".

At the risk of going straight to OMNI:

The perceived need to check documentation internally is the result of loss of control at the point of entry.

Ideally, when one crosses the border it should be verified that the person is a citizen of the country to which they are traveling or that, if not citizens, they have the proper documents to show that they are known to be traveling in the guest country, have a defined purpose in the country and will comply with local and national laws as necessary while in the country including agreeing to leave when the allotted time is complete. There are processes in place for these functions but they have been unevenly and sporadically applied. We now have a situation in which a not insignificant percentage of the people living here have neither citizenship nor proper permissions and authority to be in the country.

This is not entirely, or maybe even mostly, the fault of the undocumented visitor. It is a failure of our politicians to pass and enforce laws that make sense and are understood and respected. The visitors simply take advantage of an opportunity and now find themselves more and more as outcasts as they are the obvious result for political failures to enforce border laws and regulations.

The currently perceived need to ask for documentation would have never been required if proper processes and procedures had been implemented and enforced consistently in the past. That we find ourselves looking at such unacceptable and drastic "solutions" only magnifies the mess in which we find ourselves. I am afraid that we are at the "Let's do something even if it is wrong stage." Really not good....

So, how to put the toothpaste back in the tube? I have no idea. It is a problem without an obvious solution. Or, maybe even any solution. It will take true leadership. The solution will be one in which shared sacrifices are defined and enumerated. It must be given the teeth of enforceable law. The enforcement must be fair, even-handed, and properly funded and manned. Everyone, or a significant number, must understand the quagmire of past inaction and develop a will to do their part to alleviate it. Our current political climate may prevent it ever happening.

Too bad.

OMNI here we come.

One question and I�ll leave this one alone. �any law that would imprison a citizen�. That word in bold in the main thrust of the entire argument. Your words. Who is and who is not.

In this country we prosecute law breakers, and imprison them. Immigration laws are indeed laws. Here where we try to treat everyone as equally as possible (there are countries who don�t even pretend to do that), why are we giving one class of law breaker a pass?

It�s a complicated subject with many views. We cannot solve it here at TS/S.

But in the interest of trying to keep the TS/S portion of this alive, ID checks at the checkpoint serve several purposes. You can �what if� that away all you like, but fact is fact. Attempting to validate the identity of the individual holding a boarding pass is good practice, but there is nothing in this world that is 100%, and most things don�t even come close to 100%. Attempting is better than not attempting, and criminals are not the smartest people in the world (Yes, terrorists are also criminals).

Control of borders with ID checks is ok, but ID checks to enter the sterile area of an airport is totally different because TSA is only authorized to screen for WEI.

A person with ID or no ID is of no greater risk to have or not have WEI. The screening for those items is not dependent on ID and TSA is not conducting a dragnet for violations of the law, at least TSA is not suppose to be doing such dragnets.

As far as illegals, I think the first step is to prohibit any government paid services to people who are in the country illegally. No tax supported assistance of any kind. Then any employer who is found to have in their employment illegals would suffer serious penalties including prison.

As a country we have to make being illegal so painful that no one will want to be in that position.

I agree with some of what you have posted. Their are more than enough laws on the Federal books to do exactly what you have posted. The problem is that politicians and to a certain extent the public at large does not have the backbone to enforce what is already there.

The other thing you must take into account is not everyone crosses the border at a port of entry. The current way things are handled even if you catch a large portion that are crossing the border without inspection (not at a port) they are sent back and are trying to cross again before the agent is even done the paperwork. The same alien has been caught two or three times in the same day. There is no deterrent because nothing significant happens to them.

FB

Part of the problem is improperly and inconsistently managed points of entry, not a port of entry.

OK, how many points of entry are on the Southern Border? How many points are on the Northern Border? I guaranty once you have "controlled" all of your identified points of entry. Ten more will spring up to the east and west of you. That doesn't even count the amount that are tunneling under your "controlled" points of entry. It is easy to sit at a computer and type what the solution should be. It is another matter to go to the field observe the conditions and areas to be "controlled" then see the resources available. It is kinda like being at a diner and trying to butter your two pieces of toast (the border) with the butter (resources) from one of those little plastic butter packets.

FB

If you are TSA you have UNLIMITED butter packets, when ya run out just ask for more!

The last time I checked TSA was not controlling the borders.

FB

Really? I thought they are fingerprinted into the computer and then sent back and on their 10th try, they are criminally charged. I know I heard that somewhere, but I have no idea where or if it was reliable.

And how do we verify that without becoming a paper's please society, and at what point do we draw the line for what is defined as a service? Is getting a DL a service? Getting on public transportation? Using the public pool? Welfare?

I agree that services should only be available to people who are here legally and are paying taxes. I'm just not sure of how we can get there without turning the country into the very thing a lot of us are fighting against.

And yet, you're unable to provide even a single purpose in your post.

What is your opinion about using the Predator drone for aerial surveillance(real time) of our borders or using other types of UAVs?

It is less than 10 tries. However, you can charge them that doesn't mean the AUSA will prosecute the case to conclusion and if it does go to conclusion generally the alien will get time served, deported and starts the whole process all over again. There is no easy solution. There is not enough jail space, their is too much incentive to keep crossing because employers are willing to hire them with little fear of negative consequences. Unfortunately, it is much more complicated problem then many would believe or admit. This also just talking about the "typical illegal alien' that most US citizens picture when they hear that term. It doesn't address the many aliens that fly into the United States and overstay there visas and never leave or the Canadians that come to the US and work illegally. Those folks are living and working illegally and not all of them are doing "the jobs that US Citizens won't do" Their are poster in this forum that refuse to believe that anyone from Canada or Europe would want to live and work illegally in the US. Many times have heard " that just doesn't happen their economy is fine why would they want to do that" Yet that doesn't explain the hundreds that do get deported every year. East Indian H1B fraud is a huge problem as is Eastern European organized crime. People tend to believe what they want to believe even when facts tend to disprove their beliefs.

FB

It is a worthwhile program but you still need the personnel on the ground to be able to intercept what the UAV finds.

FB