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Oh & one other thing, they (spots) also agreed that the id checks were useless after I told them I didn't care who was on the plane as long as TSA had done their jobs & said psgrs. had no wei"s on them & that id checks (if any) should be by the airlines for rev. protection.
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The answer on the ID checks has always been, "We want to see if you are who you say you are."
This makes no sense to me, and I've never heard any reasonable explanation. The TSA spends a LOT of time on ID inspection, but they don't seem to know why. |
This thread was so good, up to the point of arguing ID's. TSA has got to go. That is and has been apparent for quite some time. This oped piece did a nice job of explaining the irony. Once the zelots start running down tangents though, our message gets cloudy and harder to argue. I say we pick or battles wisely and bring open the curtain exposing the wizard on 100% fundamentaly sound arguments. Once you bring up ID's, you have lost.
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Originally Posted by AngryMiller
(Post 12960702)
Why should we believe anything that anyone from DHS/TSA says? They've lost all of their credibility. And then some.
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Originally Posted by Paolo01
(Post 12962063)
This thread was so good, up to the point of arguing ID's. TSA has got to go. That is and has been apparent for quite some time. This oped piece did a nice job of explaining the irony. Once the zelots start running down tangents though, our message gets cloudy and harder to argue. I say we pick or battles wisely and bring open the curtain exposing the wizard on 100% fundamentaly sound arguments. Once you bring up ID's, you have lost.
Being required to show ID to the government to travel domestically is unacceptable. We must confront the TSA on all facets of their disgusting, un-American harassment. It is none of the government's business who flies. Ever. :mad: |
Originally Posted by Spiff
(Post 12962149)
It is none of the government's business who flies. Ever. :mad:
I am not arguing that the process of ID'ing is flawed now, but that is temporary. Soon, TSA will be able to mathc your ID to the boarding pass electronically. But to dismiss the idea of knowing who is on the airplane is amateur and not the argument that we need to be waging to remand TSA. The argument against paying personal income tax max more sense. |
Originally Posted by Paolo01
(Post 12962640)
Seriously? You need to remove emotion from the argument, step back for a moment and ask yourself why it might be helpful to know who is on the airplane.
I am not arguing that the process of ID'ing is flawed now, but that is temporary. Soon, TSA will be able to mathc your ID to the boarding pass electronically. But to dismiss the idea of knowing who is on the airplane is amateur and not the argument that we need to be waging to remand TSA. The argument against paying personal income tax max more sense. It's not TSA's job to operate a dragnet to fish for people who may be on a list. The list is inaccurate as it is and people have been placed on it who are only suspected of doing something wrong. Checking a gov't list and asking for permission to travel is something we railed on communist nations of the past for doing. Are we, as a freedom loving people, now deciding that maybe they were on to something by requiring people to have permission to travel? The government doesn't ask who I am and give me permission to travel by other means. What makes air travel so special? Terrorist incidents have happened with other modes of transportation. |
Originally Posted by Paolo01
(Post 12962640)
I am not arguing that the process of ID'ing is flawed now, but that is temporary. Soon, TSA will be able to mathc your ID to the boarding pass electronically. But to dismiss the idea of knowing who is on the airplane is amateur and not the argument that we need to be waging to remand TSA. The argument against paying personal income tax max more sense.
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What good is TSA's ID check? What's wrong with showing ID?
Originally Posted by Paolo01
(Post 12962640)
You need to remove emotion from the argument, step back for a moment and ask yourself why it might be helpful to know who is on the airplane.
Unless there's reason to believe that I have done something wrong, our government should leave me alone to go about my business. I should not be required to get permission in order to travel about my own country. Quoting the Identity Project's "What's Wrong with Showing ID?" page: What does an ID, any ID, do for security? The honest answer is 'not much'. If anything, relying on ID for security purposes actually makes things worse: a false sense of security fosters complacency. Showing ID only affects honest people. If you're dishonest, you can obtain false documents or steal the identity of an honest person. If a 19 year-old college student can get a fake ID to drink, why couldn't a bad person get one, too? And no matter how sophisticated the security embedded into the ID, wouldn't a well-financed terrorist be able to falsify that, too? The answer to both questions is obviously 'yes'. Honest people, on the other hand, go to Pro-Life rallies. Honest people go to Pro-Choice rallies, too. Honest people attend gun shows. Honest people protest the actions of the President of the United States. Honest people fly to political conventions. What if those with the power to put people on a 'no fly' list decided that they didn't like the reason for which you wanted to travel? The honest people wouldn't be going anywhere. Bad people, besides using fake IDs and stolen identities, can also make the system of checking IDs work in their favor. The Carnival Booth algorithm, as described by researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, demonstrates that terrorists can probe an ID security system by sending a number of people on innocent trips through the system and noting who is flagged for extra searches and who isn't. They then send only those who the system doesn't flag on terrorist missions. [...] Still, some Americans think that 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear'. Were the Founding Fathers criminals trying to protect themselves when they inserted the 4th and 5th amendments into the Bill of Rights? After all, nobody who hasn't done anything wrong needs to worry about being searched or being forced to testify against himself. Over the years, Americans have become accustomed to showing ID in any number of circumstances. Few have asked the question, 'Why?'. Showing ID during a private business transaction, like writing a check or using a credit card, is different than having to show ID to the government in order to travel. The custom of showing ID at airports came about in July of 1996, in the wake of the TWA flight 800 disaster. Faulty fuel tank insulation caused TWA 800 to explode over Long Island Sound. Before we knew that, there was concern that terrorists had blown up the plane. According to former terrorism czar Richard Clarke's book, the ID requirement was instituted as a temporary measure so that then-President Clinton had something to announce to the families of the victims when he met with them. After the 2001 World Trade Center bombings, the ID requirement became mandatory, as anyone who has flown since can testify. [...] The demand for ID does nothing for security while making honest Americans less free. Every government that has imposed totalitarian rules told its populace that it was doing so to "uphold freedom" or "improve the security of the homeland" or "root out terrorists and subversives." These ends do not justify unconstitutional means. We uphold freedom by exercising it – not by restricting it. Using this country's transportation system to conduct a dragnet, using government secret lists of wanted people, degrades our freedom and makes people less inclined to voice their opinion for fear of ending up on these secret lists. While the present administration may have benevolent intentions to justify their actions, our future is imperiled by this wholly un-American activity. |
Originally Posted by Paolo01
(Post 12962640)
Seriously? You need to remove emotion from the argument, step back for a moment and ask yourself why it might be helpful to know who is on the airplane.
I am not arguing that the process of ID'ing is flawed now, but that is temporary. Soon, TSA will be able to mathc your ID to the boarding pass electronically. But to dismiss the idea of knowing who is on the airplane is amateur and not the argument that we need to be waging to remand TSA. The argument against paying personal income tax max more sense. It is none of the government's business who flies. EVER. Passengers should alert their own contacts if they want people to know where they are. And airlines may or may not use ID for revenue protection, as they see fit. There's nothing amateur about it. The federal government has NO legitimate reason to know anyone's ID on a domestic flight, cowardly "security" insecurity notwithstanding. The government has no more need to know who is a passenger in a commercial airplane than they need to know who is a passenger in an automobile: zero. Government "leaders" who appropriate or force passengers to give up this data are un-American scumbags and should be replaced at the earliest legal convenient moment. I will continue to fight this battle and I will not support any kind of ID matching, electronic or otherwise. :td: |
Originally Posted by Paolo01
(Post 12962640)
Seriously? You need to remove emotion from the argument, step back for a moment and ask yourself why it might be helpful to know who is on the airplane.
Otherwise what's in a name? Knowing someone's name isn't going to make you any safer, unless your ex spouse is on the flight...;) |
Sorry, Spiff
Originally Posted by Spiff
(Post 12963146)
I will continue to fight this battle and I will not support any kind of ID matching, electronic or otherwise. :td:
(1.) I am with Paolo01 on this, and you should be, too. He's not saying you should give up the fight against ID matching, electronic or otherwise, I don't think. As I understand his argument, he's saying if you want to put TSA out of business, start with the arguments almost all people agree on--no more peanut butter cracker confiscations at MCO, stop tossing elderly sick people out of their wheel chairs and onto the floor at Hawaii airports. The argument against TSA checking ID's is, amazingly, harder to win, with many potential allies in the battle to outlaw TSA responding on the question of ID checking, "Well, ummmm, I dunno. Mebbe checking ID's is a good idea." Let's knock TSA down a few pegs, then kick 'em when they are down and outlaw their nasty ID matching function. Don't start the argument there. (2.) While I admire the vehemence you show in denouncing TSA, I am afraid the commenters on the Washington Post story linked by the OP put you in the shade. Just a taste: ...you have put in charge of a vital function a bunch of strutting martinets whose combination of incompetence and arrogance staggers the human mind and makes them more of a danger to the traveling public than the terrorists they are supposed to be ferreting out. |
Originally Posted by Paolo01
(Post 12962640)
Soon, TSA will be able to mathc your ID to the boarding pass electronically.
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Originally Posted by triehle
(Post 12963379)
While I admire the vehemence you show in denouncing TSA, I am afraid the commenters on the Washington Post story linked by the OP put you in the shade. Just a taste:
That is an uncommonly good turn of phrase. :p |
Originally Posted by Paolo01
(Post 12962640)
I am not arguing that the process of ID'ing is flawed now, but that is temporary. Soon, TSA will be able to mathc your ID to the boarding pass electronically. But to dismiss the idea of knowing who is on the airplane is amateur and not the argument that we need to be waging to remand TSA. The argument against paying personal income tax max more sense.
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