Beware of the bus driver
Nov 10, 2009 | 9:26 am
#31
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
Unfortunately, the difference is in the eye of the beholder. And from those who promote a mentality that says "report everything, just to be safe", the hassle endured by those who have to deal with false allegations is painful.
Paranoid? Maybe. Tell that to the dad who went walking with his daughter out in public, and because somebody thought it looked "suspicious", had to deal with a multi-hour, multi-agency investigation. Or tell that to dads in Virginia who wonder if they should hold hands with their kids, because the VA Department of Health has posters telling people to call the cops if they see it. Heck, tell that to Henry Gates, who got arrested because a neighbor saw a Black man struggling with Gates' front door and called police with her "suspicions". (Of course, at least Dr. Gates got a beer out of it.)
Yes, there's a big difference between "unusual" and "suspicious". And most people aren't trained well enough to be able to make that distinction.
Paranoid? Maybe. Tell that to the dad who went walking with his daughter out in public, and because somebody thought it looked "suspicious", had to deal with a multi-hour, multi-agency investigation. Or tell that to dads in Virginia who wonder if they should hold hands with their kids, because the VA Department of Health has posters telling people to call the cops if they see it. Heck, tell that to Henry Gates, who got arrested because a neighbor saw a Black man struggling with Gates' front door and called police with her "suspicions". (Of course, at least Dr. Gates got a beer out of it.)
Yes, there's a big difference between "unusual" and "suspicious". And most people aren't trained well enough to be able to make that distinction.
Nov 10, 2009 | 9:29 am
#32
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
It's what Jeremy Bentham called the "panopticon". And it's a dangerous idea.
Nov 10, 2009 | 9:40 am
#33
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,702
Unfortunately, the difference is in the eye of the beholder. And from those who promote a mentality that says "report everything, just to be safe", the hassle endured by those who have to deal with false allegations is painful.
Paranoid? Maybe. Tell that to the dad who went walking with his daughter out in public, and because somebody thought it looked "suspicious", had to deal with a multi-hour, multi-agency investigation. Or tell that to dads in Virginia who wonder if they should hold hands with their kids, because the VA Department of Health has posters telling people to call the cops if they see it. Heck, tell that to Henry Gates, who got arrested because a neighbor saw a Black man struggling with Gates' front door and called police with her "suspicions". (Of course, at least Dr. Gates got a beer out of it.)
Yes, there's a big difference between "unusual" and "suspicious". And most people aren't trained well enough to be able to make that distinction.
Paranoid? Maybe. Tell that to the dad who went walking with his daughter out in public, and because somebody thought it looked "suspicious", had to deal with a multi-hour, multi-agency investigation. Or tell that to dads in Virginia who wonder if they should hold hands with their kids, because the VA Department of Health has posters telling people to call the cops if they see it. Heck, tell that to Henry Gates, who got arrested because a neighbor saw a Black man struggling with Gates' front door and called police with her "suspicions". (Of course, at least Dr. Gates got a beer out of it.)
Yes, there's a big difference between "unusual" and "suspicious". And most people aren't trained well enough to be able to make that distinction.
Gates is not a good example for you to use to support your idea. He was not reported because of his race; a neighbor reported it because she saw him forcing a door open. And he was arrested because of the way he acted after th police figured out whY was happening and was preparring to leave. All of his bluster came to nothing when what really happened came out and the country saw what an ... he was, and now isn't he happy there are other news stories that make us forget what an idiot a harvard professor can be.
Nov 10, 2009 | 9:40 am
#34
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Since TSA never does risk management, I'll have to do it for them.
Suppose a couple of guys with white robes and beards travel from West Hideoutistan with a 155 mm shell and plan to place their IED under a US street. At home they plant their IEDs at night, as it is harder to spot them. Suppose in the US for some reason they plan to dig their hole in the daytime. They scout locations for a few days to find a rural road with a daily low traffic period to dig their hole.
School buses drive fixed days of the week, drive a fixed route, at the same time every day and driving the same direction, one way in the morning and one way in the afternoon. The IED diggers notice this and decide "no digging when the school bus is due by."
Schedule regularity means school buses are the most easily avoided vehicle there is, and thus school bus drivers are LESS likely to see suspicious activity than other forms of transportation. Duh.
OTOH, since no induvidual bus driver is likely to see a single "suspicious activity" in their entire lifetime, and that rare driver who does see a "suspicious activity" is lilely to only see one in their entire career, how are they supposed to notice PATTERNS? One or less than one event does not make a "pattern."
Suppose a couple of guys with white robes and beards travel from West Hideoutistan with a 155 mm shell and plan to place their IED under a US street. At home they plant their IEDs at night, as it is harder to spot them. Suppose in the US for some reason they plan to dig their hole in the daytime. They scout locations for a few days to find a rural road with a daily low traffic period to dig their hole.
School buses drive fixed days of the week, drive a fixed route, at the same time every day and driving the same direction, one way in the morning and one way in the afternoon. The IED diggers notice this and decide "no digging when the school bus is due by."
Schedule regularity means school buses are the most easily avoided vehicle there is, and thus school bus drivers are LESS likely to see suspicious activity than other forms of transportation. Duh.
OTOH, since no induvidual bus driver is likely to see a single "suspicious activity" in their entire lifetime, and that rare driver who does see a "suspicious activity" is lilely to only see one in their entire career, how are they supposed to notice PATTERNS? One or less than one event does not make a "pattern."
Mike
Nov 10, 2009 | 9:45 am
#35
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,702
Oh, yes it does. If I get hassled every time I do something "unusual", even if it turns out that I'm completely justified in my actions, eventually I'm going to wear down and stop acting unusual so that I don't have to waste my time and energy (and perhaps money) defending myself against irrational charges. Voila: conformity.
It's what Jeremy Bentham called the "panopticon". And it's a dangerous idea.
It's what Jeremy Bentham called the "panopticon". And it's a dangerous idea.
Nov 10, 2009 | 10:07 am
#36
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Oh, yes it does. If I get hassled every time I do something "unusual", even if it turns out that I'm completely justified in my actions, eventually I'm going to wear down and stop acting unusual so that I don't have to waste my time and energy (and perhaps money) defending myself against irrational charges. Voila: conformity.
It's what Jeremy Bentham called the "panopticon". And it's a dangerous idea.
It's what Jeremy Bentham called the "panopticon". And it's a dangerous idea.
Nov 10, 2009 | 10:08 am
#37
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Paranoid? Maybe. Tell that to the dad who went walking with his daughter out in public, and because somebody thought it looked "suspicious", had to deal with a multi-hour, multi-agency investigation. Or tell that to dads in Virginia who wonder if they should hold hands with their kids, because the VA Department of Health has posters telling people to call the cops if they see it. Heck, tell that to Henry Gates, who got arrested because a neighbor saw a Black man struggling with Gates' front door and called police with her "suspicions". (Of course, at least Dr. Gates got a beer out of it.)
Yes, there's a big difference between "unusual" and "suspicious". And most people aren't trained well enough to be able to make that distinction.
Yes, there's a big difference between "unusual" and "suspicious". And most people aren't trained well enough to be able to make that distinction.
A coworker recently got an email from somebody in her neighborhood group who we will call "W." Apparently, W had seen a suspicious looking man sitting in his car watching kids get off the school bus. So W decided to send around an email to everyone in the neighborhood email group "warning" them about the strange man watching kids get off the school bus. Of course, it turned out to be a guy waiting for his kid to get off the bus so the kid wouldn't have to walk home through the rain. After a threat to call the police on W, she issued an "apology," in the style of, "I'm sorry if anyone was offended but I was just thinking of the kids..."
Mike
Nov 10, 2009 | 10:33 am
#38
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Nov 10, 2009 | 11:06 am
#40
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,702
I decided to leave it at that. He and I disagree. A conversation like this can go forever. I've said what I wanted to say; I have never fooled myself into believing I will change anyones mind here, that has never been the reason why I post. I'm content with what I said, and that's about it. 
Nov 10, 2009 | 11:19 am
#41
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
I decided to leave it at that. He and I disagree. A conversation like this can go forever. I've said what I wanted to say; I have never fooled myself into believing I will change anyones mind here, that has never been the reason why I post. I'm content with what I said, and that's about it.
Nov 10, 2009 | 12:25 pm
#43
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I don't understand why we're concentrating on school bus drivers, anyway. From what I remember about mine, he dranked and he smoked and he told dirty jokes. And it's not like he could have caught a terrorist, anyway; he was slow as a turtle because he wore a girdle.
Mike
Mike
Nov 10, 2009 | 1:30 pm
#44
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
Of course, moving from "something is different" to "something is suspicious" is a value judgment ... and how well that value judgment can be made by non-professsionals is a matter of debate. Your mileage may vary.
Nov 10, 2009 | 2:35 pm
#45
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The argument, which has some merit, is that certain folks like school bus drivers, postal workers, sanitation workers, and so on, are out in the same public spaces on a regular basis, and would be more likely to notice sudden differences in the environment than others who aren't as familiar with those places.
Of course, moving from "something is different" to "something is suspicious" is a value judgment ... and how well that value judgment can be made by non-professsionals is a matter of debate. Your mileage may vary.
Of course, moving from "something is different" to "something is suspicious" is a value judgment ... and how well that value judgment can be made by non-professsionals is a matter of debate. Your mileage may vary.
Mike