Kenya Airways: Extortionate and Spiteful
#16
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 89
Some interesting points made, and I guess a bit of an eye-opener...
I take back the point on spitefulness, it seems KQ have a combined per-flight and per time period quota, which is why when they released a set number of seats, it opened up availability on most flights and once these released seats were booked up no matter the date, the seat availability vanished on all flights. Seems unlikely to involve manual filtering / tinkering...
And on extortion, I guess that's just how business is conducted in the region when there is no real competition, it's take it or leave it and for as long as there will be sufficient takers this will continue!
I take back the point on spitefulness, it seems KQ have a combined per-flight and per time period quota, which is why when they released a set number of seats, it opened up availability on most flights and once these released seats were booked up no matter the date, the seat availability vanished on all flights. Seems unlikely to involve manual filtering / tinkering...
And on extortion, I guess that's just how business is conducted in the region when there is no real competition, it's take it or leave it and for as long as there will be sufficient takers this will continue!
#17
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: Flying Blue, Diamond Club
Posts: 782
Before last year FB changes it was 7500 miles per sector, so you should see it as an improvement!
Yes very true, KQ was forced to reduce from 42 flights weekly to 14 weekly by TZ upset about a ban on TZ tourist vans at JKIA. Thank God it went back to normal otherwise OP would have cried with so limited frequencies as KQ would have surely increased the fares like it was the case with the demise of Air Uganda on the EBB-NBO.
The BASA on Kenya – TZ allow:
- Unlimited frequencies on any point in Kenya to Zanzibar
- 35 on Zanzibar - Nairobi
- 42 on Nairobi - Dar es Salaam
- 42 on Dar es Salaam - Nairobi
- 42 on Nairobi - Kilimanjaro
- 42 on Kilimanjaro - Nairobi
- 14 on Kisumu - Mwanza
- 14 on Nairobi - Mwanza
- 14 on Mwanza - Nairobi
- 14 on Mombasa - Kilimanjaro
- 14 on Kilimanjaro - Mombasa
- 14 on Mwanza - Kisumu
- 14 on Kisumu - Mwanza
- Any aircraft size
I was wondering the same, by any chance do you know why?
I mean how come they fly to Bujumbura - Burundi for a while, but not on the busy and lucrative DAR-NBO?
While Kenya (along with Rwanda and Ethiopia which are fully cooperative) signed the agreement, it has yet to be implemented there. However TZ should take this opportunity to join the group and at least sign it as it will benefit Air Tanzania in the near future! Not sure from what is the feud from Tanzania towards all East African Community (EAC) in many sectors...
The BASA on Kenya – TZ allow:
- Unlimited frequencies on any point in Kenya to Zanzibar
- 35 on Zanzibar - Nairobi
- 42 on Nairobi - Dar es Salaam
- 42 on Dar es Salaam - Nairobi
- 42 on Nairobi - Kilimanjaro
- 42 on Kilimanjaro - Nairobi
- 14 on Kisumu - Mwanza
- 14 on Nairobi - Mwanza
- 14 on Mwanza - Nairobi
- 14 on Mombasa - Kilimanjaro
- 14 on Kilimanjaro - Mombasa
- 14 on Mwanza - Kisumu
- 14 on Kisumu - Mwanza
- Any aircraft size
I mean how come they fly to Bujumbura - Burundi for a while, but not on the busy and lucrative DAR-NBO?
While Kenya (along with Rwanda and Ethiopia which are fully cooperative) signed the agreement, it has yet to be implemented there. However TZ should take this opportunity to join the group and at least sign it as it will benefit Air Tanzania in the near future! Not sure from what is the feud from Tanzania towards all East African Community (EAC) in many sectors...
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 89
Before last year FB changes it was 7500 miles per sector, so you should see it as an improvement!
Yes very true, KQ was forced to reduce from 42 flights weekly to 14 weekly by TZ upset about a ban on TZ tourist vans at JKIA. Thank God it went back to normal otherwise OP would have cried with so limited frequencies as KQ would have surely increased the fares like it was the case with the demise of Air Uganda on the EBB-NBO.
The BASA on Kenya – TZ allow:
- Unlimited frequencies on any point in Kenya to Zanzibar
- 35 on Zanzibar - Nairobi
- 42 on Nairobi - Dar es Salaam
- 42 on Dar es Salaam - Nairobi
- 42 on Nairobi - Kilimanjaro
- 42 on Kilimanjaro - Nairobi
- 14 on Kisumu - Mwanza
- 14 on Nairobi - Mwanza
- 14 on Mwanza - Nairobi
- 14 on Mombasa - Kilimanjaro
- 14 on Kilimanjaro - Mombasa
- 14 on Mwanza - Kisumu
- 14 on Kisumu - Mwanza
- Any aircraft size
I was wondering the same, by any chance do you know why?
I mean how come they fly to Bujumbura - Burundi for a while, but not on the busy and lucrative DAR-NBO?
While Kenya (along with Rwanda and Ethiopia which are fully cooperative) signed the agreement, it has yet to be implemented there. However TZ should take this opportunity to join the group and at least sign it as it will benefit Air Tanzania in the near future! Not sure from what is the feud from Tanzania towards all East African Community (EAC) in many sectors...
Yes very true, KQ was forced to reduce from 42 flights weekly to 14 weekly by TZ upset about a ban on TZ tourist vans at JKIA. Thank God it went back to normal otherwise OP would have cried with so limited frequencies as KQ would have surely increased the fares like it was the case with the demise of Air Uganda on the EBB-NBO.
The BASA on Kenya – TZ allow:
- Unlimited frequencies on any point in Kenya to Zanzibar
- 35 on Zanzibar - Nairobi
- 42 on Nairobi - Dar es Salaam
- 42 on Dar es Salaam - Nairobi
- 42 on Nairobi - Kilimanjaro
- 42 on Kilimanjaro - Nairobi
- 14 on Kisumu - Mwanza
- 14 on Nairobi - Mwanza
- 14 on Mwanza - Nairobi
- 14 on Mombasa - Kilimanjaro
- 14 on Kilimanjaro - Mombasa
- 14 on Mwanza - Kisumu
- 14 on Kisumu - Mwanza
- Any aircraft size
I was wondering the same, by any chance do you know why?
I mean how come they fly to Bujumbura - Burundi for a while, but not on the busy and lucrative DAR-NBO?
While Kenya (along with Rwanda and Ethiopia which are fully cooperative) signed the agreement, it has yet to be implemented there. However TZ should take this opportunity to join the group and at least sign it as it will benefit Air Tanzania in the near future! Not sure from what is the feud from Tanzania towards all East African Community (EAC) in many sectors...
#19
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
This happens in many places. I have just completed a 3 week trip:
* My London-Dubai-Johannesburg/Nairobi-Dubai-London ticket (26 hours flying) was $865
*My Johannesburg-Nairobi ticket on SAA (4 hours flying) was $460 (KQ was more)
All Emirates flights were full, but I counted only 42 people on SAA.
* My London-Dubai-Johannesburg/Nairobi-Dubai-London ticket (26 hours flying) was $865
*My Johannesburg-Nairobi ticket on SAA (4 hours flying) was $460 (KQ was more)
All Emirates flights were full, but I counted only 42 people on SAA.
#20
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: DXB
Programs: TK Elite Plus
Posts: 413
BOM and CAN are in the TC pipeline, should happen mid this year. I would be surprised if JNB didnt happen also sooner or later.
#21
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: DXB / KUO
Programs: AY, SQ, EK
Posts: 858
What a ridiculous rant though. USD350 return for this flight is not expensive, especially considering that this is not exactly a low-cost environment we are talking about here.
I'm sure it would be great if airlines were selling every seat below cost - although not sure about the future of the airline industry in that case.
Some info on KQ's track record of profitability here:
https://corporate.kenya-airways.com/...areholders/en/
I'm sure it would be great if airlines were selling every seat below cost - although not sure about the future of the airline industry in that case.
Some info on KQ's track record of profitability here:
https://corporate.kenya-airways.com/...areholders/en/
#22
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: DXB
Programs: TK Elite Plus
Posts: 413
What a ridiculous rant though. USD350 return for this flight is not expensive, especially considering that this is not exactly a low-cost environment we are talking about here.
I'm sure it would be great if airlines were selling every seat below cost - although not sure about the future of the airline industry in that case.
Some info on KQ's track record of profitability here:
https://corporate.kenya-airways.com/...areholders/en/
I'm sure it would be great if airlines were selling every seat below cost - although not sure about the future of the airline industry in that case.
Some info on KQ's track record of profitability here:
https://corporate.kenya-airways.com/...areholders/en/
Actually the strike at NBO airport the past days are partially rooted in employees of Kenya Airports thinking KQ are being mismanaged and mis-spending funds.
#23
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: DXB / KUO
Programs: AY, SQ, EK
Posts: 858
KQ not being profitable doesn't necessarily mean we can conclude their tickets are fair or under-priced. It could also be a sign of mismanagement of the company and too high expenditure.
Actually the strike at NBO airport the past days are partially rooted in employees of Kenya Airports thinking KQ are being mismanaged and mis-spending funds.
Actually the strike at NBO airport the past days are partially rooted in employees of Kenya Airports thinking KQ are being mismanaged and mis-spending funds.
All I'm saying is that KQ is hardly making great money...
My argument is that the original complaint does not make much sense. The quoted price is not that high. For a full-service airline, selling USD350 return tickets mixed with connecting traffic on a 665km sector in an environment that is not exactly low cost - well, I don't think that can be a huge money maker. This comes with the caveat that I have no idea re KQ's CASK for that sector.
#24
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
You - of course - have valid points.
All I'm saying is that KQ is hardly making great money...
My argument is that the original complaint does not make much sense. The quoted price is not that high. For a full-service airline, selling USD350 return tickets mixed with connecting traffic on a 665km sector in an environment that is not exactly low cost - well, I don't think that can be a huge money maker. This comes with the caveat that I have no idea re KQ's CASK for that sector.
All I'm saying is that KQ is hardly making great money...
My argument is that the original complaint does not make much sense. The quoted price is not that high. For a full-service airline, selling USD350 return tickets mixed with connecting traffic on a 665km sector in an environment that is not exactly low cost - well, I don't think that can be a huge money maker. This comes with the caveat that I have no idea re KQ's CASK for that sector.
As for it being a high cost environment. Really? How? Employees get some of the lowest wages on earth, and the cheap/nasty Chinese built airports like the one in Nairobi are hardly expensive luxury stuff.
Flights in Africa have always been expensive due to lack of competition and inefficient local operators. I presume that is why they have always tried to keep competition from the likes of FastJet at arms length.
#25
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: DXB / KUO
Programs: AY, SQ, EK
Posts: 858
Whether KQ is making money is irrelevant. Any losses more likely to be down to mismanagent or corruption. It doesn't mean that paying customers should foot the bill.
As for it being a high cost environment. Really? How? Employees get some of the lowest wages on earth, and the cheap/nasty Chinese built airports like the one in Nairobi are hardly expensive luxury stuff.
Flights in Africa have always been expensive due to lack of competition and inefficient local operators. I presume that is why they have always tried to keep competition from the likes of FastJet at arms length.
As for it being a high cost environment. Really? How? Employees get some of the lowest wages on earth, and the cheap/nasty Chinese built airports like the one in Nairobi are hardly expensive luxury stuff.
Flights in Africa have always been expensive due to lack of competition and inefficient local operators. I presume that is why they have always tried to keep competition from the likes of FastJet at arms length.
Some challenges that might impact costs in some jurisdictions in Africa:
- Small markets, low volumes (low disposable incomes, so cannot stimulate demand via lower fares)
- Fuel costs? State monopoly in various markets?
- Difficulty of repatriating funds from various countries
- I assume typically airport fees and charges are high
- Salaries are one thing, but how about labour productivity?
- Security, insurance
- I would also assume local operations - sales, ground handling etc. - in various countries can be quite expensive (also considering low volumes)
#26
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Interesting thoughts there. I would think it's pretty important for any airline to try and sell fares that make them money on average.
Some challenges that might impact costs in some jurisdictions in Africa:
- Small markets, low volumes (low disposable incomes, so cannot stimulate demand via lower fares)
- Fuel costs? State monopoly in various markets?
- Difficulty of repatriating funds from various countries
- I assume typically airport fees and charges are high
- Salaries are one thing, but how about labour productivity?
- Security, insurance
- I would also assume local operations - sales, ground handling etc. - in various countries can be quite expensive (also considering low volumes)
Some challenges that might impact costs in some jurisdictions in Africa:
- Small markets, low volumes (low disposable incomes, so cannot stimulate demand via lower fares)
- Fuel costs? State monopoly in various markets?
- Difficulty of repatriating funds from various countries
- I assume typically airport fees and charges are high
- Salaries are one thing, but how about labour productivity?
- Security, insurance
- I would also assume local operations - sales, ground handling etc. - in various countries can be quite expensive (also considering low volumes)
KQ isn't alone in that - SAA is also a basket case. Poor management decisions by political appointees, corruption, too many free fares for ANC cronies and so on.
#27
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2005
Programs: BA Gold, A3 Gold, FB Gold, Bonvoy Titanium / LTP, Accor Plat
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Funnily enough, DAR-NBO-JNB-NBO-DAR on KQ is not only significantly cheaper than DAR-JNB-DAR on SA, it can also be only marginally more expensive than DAR-NBO-DAR on KQ. I held a return flight for under $340 last week. (Schedule meant I had to fly SA.)
#28
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Quite normal. That's why BA flights are usually significantly cheaper with an ex-EU tag on than from LHR.
#29
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