Norwegian Air - A Cautionary Tale
Jul 20, 2017, 8:59 pm
#16
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atherton, CA
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Owner, Green Bay Packers
Posts: 21,690
There are companies that will do the EC compensation work for you in return for a portion of the recovery. Might be worth it so you don't have to waste time but you still punish the airline.
Jul 20, 2017, 10:27 pm
#17
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,498
Jul 21, 2017, 2:28 am
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,757
Rather than immediately going to a claim agency - who will take a chunk out of any compensation you may receive - you should at least attempt a direct claim yourself first.
https://www.norwegian.com/nl/booking...senger-rights/
https://www.norwegian.com/nl/booking...senger-rights/
Jul 21, 2017, 3:09 am
#19
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
Understood that any airline could have mechanical issues and a plane swap. But, most mainline carriers wouldn't have to rely on a charter plane & crew.
...
Completely irresponsible given that Norwegian knew for days that a 772 would serve that route instead of the advertised 789.
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Completely irresponsible given that Norwegian knew for days that a 772 would serve that route instead of the advertised 789.
You still managed to get to your destination on the same day, with only a 3 hours delay.
As for what Norwegian knew or didn't knew in advance about the flight it is anyones guess, I'm sure that they did everything possible to get it fixed as quickly as possible, and to some extent it means that the decision about which aircraft will actually operate the flight was probably only taken at the very last possible minute
Jul 21, 2017, 6:28 am
#20
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: PEK
Programs: A3*G, UA Gold EY Silver
Posts: 8,959
Don't bother submitting a complaint to the UK CAA. It is toothless and will simply tell you what you know, e.g. that you are owed EUR 300 each. But, that won't make the money arrive.
Just file a SCC in the appropriate UK court. They do telephonic hearings, but it won't likely get to that.
Just file a SCC in the appropriate UK court. They do telephonic hearings, but it won't likely get to that.
Jul 21, 2017, 7:30 am
#21
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
If filling out a simple online form is a "waste of times" to save the EUR 100 which is what most of the claims agencies will charge, then so be it.
OP can't use MCOL because he isn't a UK resident, but he certainly can go directly to SCC and, as I noted above, request a telephonic hearing.
Bear in mind that the sole issue is the arrival time at JFK. Departure is irrelevant. If actual JFK arrival is 3+ hours post scheduled arrival, that is the end of the discussion (given the reason for the delay). While flight records show arrival as "brakes locked" at the gate (a universal measure of arrival), the ECJ says doors open for passenger offload. Unless you are down to the wire or the jetbridge went MX, this ought to be irrelevant.
OP can't use MCOL because he isn't a UK resident, but he certainly can go directly to SCC and, as I noted above, request a telephonic hearing.
Bear in mind that the sole issue is the arrival time at JFK. Departure is irrelevant. If actual JFK arrival is 3+ hours post scheduled arrival, that is the end of the discussion (given the reason for the delay). While flight records show arrival as "brakes locked" at the gate (a universal measure of arrival), the ECJ says doors open for passenger offload. Unless you are down to the wire or the jetbridge went MX, this ought to be irrelevant.
Jul 21, 2017, 7:38 am
#22
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 36
You're right about the first one, when KLM had an issue with one of their 789 they simply cancelled flights for days on end until it was fixed, when KQ had an issue with a 788 they had constant ~12hr delays on one of their routes (NBO-CDG) for about 2 weeks.
You still managed to get to your destination on the same day, with only a 3 hours delay.
As for what Norwegian knew or didn't knew in advance about the flight it is anyones guess, I'm sure that they did everything possible to get it fixed as quickly as possible, and to some extent it means that the decision about which aircraft will actually operate the flight was probably only taken at the very last possible minute
You still managed to get to your destination on the same day, with only a 3 hours delay.
As for what Norwegian knew or didn't knew in advance about the flight it is anyones guess, I'm sure that they did everything possible to get it fixed as quickly as possible, and to some extent it means that the decision about which aircraft will actually operate the flight was probably only taken at the very last possible minute
I would have much preferred that Norwegian cancelled the flight or had an extreme delay using an appropriate sized aircraft. I can't express how tight they made the seating in Y by adding rows. My wife has flown Spirit in the US and said this seating was even worse. Completely unacceptable for a 7 hour flight.
Norwegian absolutely knew they would be using that exact 772 for days in advance. They used that same plane for a few days before and a few days after my flight on 30-June. So, they knew they would be downgrading people and denying boarding to some Y PAX. They should have told me I would be downgraded and explained location and legroom/pitch of the downgraded seat. I could have then made an informed decision to fly or not.
Jul 21, 2017, 7:44 am
#23
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 36
If filling out a simple online form is a "waste of times" to save the EUR 100 which is what most of the claims agencies will charge, then so be it.
OP can't use MCOL because he isn't a UK resident, but he certainly can go directly to SCC and, as I noted above, request a telephonic hearing.
Bear in mind that the sole issue is the arrival time at JFK. Departure is irrelevant. If actual JFK arrival is 3+ hours post scheduled arrival, that is the end of the discussion (given the reason for the delay). While flight records show arrival as "brakes locked" at the gate (a universal measure of arrival), the ECJ says doors open for passenger offload. Unless you are down to the wire or the jetbridge went MX, this ought to be irrelevant.
OP can't use MCOL because he isn't a UK resident, but he certainly can go directly to SCC and, as I noted above, request a telephonic hearing.
Bear in mind that the sole issue is the arrival time at JFK. Departure is irrelevant. If actual JFK arrival is 3+ hours post scheduled arrival, that is the end of the discussion (given the reason for the delay). While flight records show arrival as "brakes locked" at the gate (a universal measure of arrival), the ECJ says doors open for passenger offload. Unless you are down to the wire or the jetbridge went MX, this ought to be irrelevant.
Assuming Norwegian doesn't respond to my direct claim by next week, I'll file a complaint with the UK CAA. If that gets me nowhere I'll look into the SCC process.
The plane arrived at JFK 3 hours and 6 minutes late per fly flightaware. We arrived at the gate later than that, but I didn't record the time.
Jul 21, 2017, 8:00 am
#24
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
I would have much preferred that Norwegian cancelled the flight or had an extreme delay using an appropriate sized aircraft. I can't express how tight they made the seating in Y by adding rows. My wife has flown Spirit in the US and said this seating was even worse. Completely unacceptable for a 7 hour flight.
Norwegian absolutely knew they would be using that exact 772 for days in advance. They used that same plane for a few days before and a few days after my flight on 30-June. So, they knew they would be downgrading people and denying boarding to some Y PAX. They should have told me I would be downgraded and explained location and legroom/pitch of the downgraded seat. I could have then made an informed decision to fly or not.
Norwegian absolutely knew they would be using that exact 772 for days in advance. They used that same plane for a few days before and a few days after my flight on 30-June. So, they knew they would be downgrading people and denying boarding to some Y PAX. They should have told me I would be downgraded and explained location and legroom/pitch of the downgraded seat. I could have then made an informed decision to fly or not.
While you might prefer the flight to be cancelled, and you actually had to option not to fly, most other pax would probably prefer to just get in time to their destination.
And what happened the day before, or the day after means nothing, it could be that they were expecting the plane to be repaired in time for your flight, and it turned out last minute that it wouldn't be.
Jul 21, 2017, 8:34 am
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 36
They did offer you the option to cancel for a full refund, didn't they? Why didn't you accept if seat pitch/width is your main concern? Did you enquire about the seat "location" and pitch?
While you might prefer the flight to be cancelled, and you actually had to option not to fly, most other pax would probably prefer to just get in time to their destination.
And what happened the day before, or the day after means nothing, it could be that they were expecting the plane to be repaired in time for your flight, and it turned out last minute that it wouldn't be.
While you might prefer the flight to be cancelled, and you actually had to option not to fly, most other pax would probably prefer to just get in time to their destination.
And what happened the day before, or the day after means nothing, it could be that they were expecting the plane to be repaired in time for your flight, and it turned out last minute that it wouldn't be.
They gave me the option to cancel at check-in. And they told me at check-in that we would have an empty seat blocked off next to us. They didn't explain that they had packed the plane with so many Y seats that my knees would be jammed into the seat in front of me. Had I known they were lying about the blocked seat and that the seating would be inhumanly tight, I would have cancelled at check-in. I did briefly consider de-boarding the plane, but didn't want to further delay everyone else while they found and pulled my bags.
They changed the plane type on their website days in advance from a 789 to a 772, so they knew it would be flying that route. And it flew that route for a few days after my flight. If they had switched back to the 789 the day after my flight, I could see your point that they may have been hoping it would be out of maintenance for my flight. But, there is no way they expected it to be ready 3 days before it was. Maintenance people aren't that bad with repair time estimates.
In reality, the 789 was probably in for a C-Check and they knew exactly how long it would be down. A real carrier would have N+1 aircraft to allow one to be in maintenance without causing these issues.
Jul 21, 2017, 9:19 am
#26
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
Did you ask? or did you expect them to measure the length between the ground and your knees and advise you about how much space you will have left?
Jul 21, 2017, 9:37 am
#27
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,808
I've been a longtime lurker, especially in the old CO Onepass forum and current United MileagePlus forum. But, this is my first post.
About six months ago I bought JFK-LGW Premium tickets from Norwegian traveling out 6/30 and back 7/10 on 787-9 aircraft both ways. I had never flown them, but the pricing was excellent for a product that looked to be between Economy+ and Business. I'm a bigger guy, so seat room was my primary concern.
A few days before my flight I started checking the on-time performance of the outbound flight on flightaware when I notice that instead of a Norwegian 787-9, a 777-200 has been operating on the JFK-LGW route. Apparently Norwegian had a 787-9 down. In addition, I could no longer see a seat map for the outbound flight on Norwegian's site. I was concerned so I called and did an online chat with Norwegian to confirm we had seats in the premium section of the replacement aircraft. I was assured that we would.
The day of the flight we arrived at JFK 3 hours before departure time to check-in and check our bags (Norwegian doesn't allow online checkin to/from JFK). The counter agent tells me we've been downgraded from Premium to Economy since the 777-200 has fewer seats than a 787-9. I'm obviously livid, but the agent and his supervisor say all decisions are made in Oslo and my only option is to cancel. I was traveling with my wife for vacation and last minute tickets on another airline would have been crazy expensive, so I really had no option but to accept the downgrade. I find it completely unacceptable that Norwegian knew about the equipment swap days in advance and didn't inform me of the downgrade before check-in.
To make things even worse, we were placed in the middle section of the plane and they refused to move us to an exit row or bulkhead. The counter agent also lied to us about the third seat in our section being blocked off (someone was seated in in it). Finally, the plane was a couple hours delayed, as seems to be standard practice for this flight.
I've flown in Economy on cheap domestic airlines before and this was so much worse. My knees were jammed into the seat in front of me even before the person in front of me put their seat back. Apparently they had added seats to economy (reducing legroom) on this 777-200 to partially make up for the lower seating capacity it has compared to a 787-9.
The 777-200 ended up being operated by EuroAtlantic, a Portugese charter company. It was a 20 years old plane with no working IFE and the most of the FAs didn't seem to speak or understand English.
By the time we returned home 10 days later Norwegian had fixed their 787-9 and we were given Premium seats at check-in. However, after boarding the plane, we were told that the cargo handlers had made a cut in the wall of the cargo area and needed engineering sign-off before we could depart. The pilot told us that they had to send pictures to Boeing to confirm the plane was flyable. Always nice to hear your aircraft has questionable airworthiness! That process delayed us three hours while we sat on the plane. We were in the first row, so I got to hear the FAs complaining that they had to do an extra water service while we waited and they should be compensated for it. Very unprofessional.
Bottom line is, if you book Norwegian expect delays and realize that they regularly use sub-par charters to fill-in when they have equipment issues. Take a look at flightaware or another site before you book to see the on-time performance of the route you're considering and what aircraft they're actually using.
I've learned my lesson and won't risk flying with them again.
About six months ago I bought JFK-LGW Premium tickets from Norwegian traveling out 6/30 and back 7/10 on 787-9 aircraft both ways. I had never flown them, but the pricing was excellent for a product that looked to be between Economy+ and Business. I'm a bigger guy, so seat room was my primary concern.
A few days before my flight I started checking the on-time performance of the outbound flight on flightaware when I notice that instead of a Norwegian 787-9, a 777-200 has been operating on the JFK-LGW route. Apparently Norwegian had a 787-9 down. In addition, I could no longer see a seat map for the outbound flight on Norwegian's site. I was concerned so I called and did an online chat with Norwegian to confirm we had seats in the premium section of the replacement aircraft. I was assured that we would.
The day of the flight we arrived at JFK 3 hours before departure time to check-in and check our bags (Norwegian doesn't allow online checkin to/from JFK). The counter agent tells me we've been downgraded from Premium to Economy since the 777-200 has fewer seats than a 787-9. I'm obviously livid, but the agent and his supervisor say all decisions are made in Oslo and my only option is to cancel. I was traveling with my wife for vacation and last minute tickets on another airline would have been crazy expensive, so I really had no option but to accept the downgrade. I find it completely unacceptable that Norwegian knew about the equipment swap days in advance and didn't inform me of the downgrade before check-in.
To make things even worse, we were placed in the middle section of the plane and they refused to move us to an exit row or bulkhead. The counter agent also lied to us about the third seat in our section being blocked off (someone was seated in in it). Finally, the plane was a couple hours delayed, as seems to be standard practice for this flight.
I've flown in Economy on cheap domestic airlines before and this was so much worse. My knees were jammed into the seat in front of me even before the person in front of me put their seat back. Apparently they had added seats to economy (reducing legroom) on this 777-200 to partially make up for the lower seating capacity it has compared to a 787-9.
The 777-200 ended up being operated by EuroAtlantic, a Portugese charter company. It was a 20 years old plane with no working IFE and the most of the FAs didn't seem to speak or understand English.
By the time we returned home 10 days later Norwegian had fixed their 787-9 and we were given Premium seats at check-in. However, after boarding the plane, we were told that the cargo handlers had made a cut in the wall of the cargo area and needed engineering sign-off before we could depart. The pilot told us that they had to send pictures to Boeing to confirm the plane was flyable. Always nice to hear your aircraft has questionable airworthiness! That process delayed us three hours while we sat on the plane. We were in the first row, so I got to hear the FAs complaining that they had to do an extra water service while we waited and they should be compensated for it. Very unprofessional.
Bottom line is, if you book Norwegian expect delays and realize that they regularly use sub-par charters to fill-in when they have equipment issues. Take a look at flightaware or another site before you book to see the on-time performance of the route you're considering and what aircraft they're actually using.
I've learned my lesson and won't risk flying with them again.
Jul 21, 2017, 9:45 am
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 36
Next time I check-in and am told I've been downgraded I'll be sure to ask if the Economy seats on the plane are completely awful. I'm sure I'll get a response as accurate & truthful as when they told me they had blocked an open seat next to us.
Bottom line, I should have been informed of the downgrade days in advance with details on the new seats. There is no excuse for doing it at check-in and putting me on the spot to make an uninformed decision about canceling.
Jul 21, 2017, 9:49 am
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 36
I know, in some ways I should have realized the price was too good to be true. I seriously wouldn't fly on that 772 again even if it was free.
I'm a cynic, so I don't expect excellent customer service or on-time performance from any airline. But, this Norwegian experience was so far beyond even the worst I could have imagined.
Lesson learned. I'll stick with mainline carriers. Especially for flights lasting more than 3 hours.
Jul 21, 2017, 10:54 am
#30
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
Next time I check-in and am told I've been downgraded I'll be sure to ask if the Economy seats on the plane are completely awful. I'm sure I'll get a response as accurate & truthful as when they told me they had blocked an open seat next to us.
Bottom line, I should have been informed of the downgrade days in advance with details on the new seats. There is no excuse for doing it at check-in and putting me on the spot to make an uninformed decision about canceling.
Bottom line, I should have been informed of the downgrade days in advance with details on the new seats. There is no excuse for doing it at check-in and putting me on the spot to make an uninformed decision about canceling.