(TEB-NAS) Midsize Jet help with max weight
Mar 20, 2024, 8:13 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2022
Posts: 16
(TEB-NAS) Midsize Jet help with max weight
Hi all,
We have hours with Sentient Jet and typically fly their Midsize jets -- Hawker 800, Citation XLS, Lear 60 etc. Usually only the XLS will work for us due to large luggage.
Can someone help with me with maximum weight for our trip combined with our routing?
I am not sure we will fit or be able to do non-stop due to pass/weight.
Last time we flew 6 pass + little less luggage and had to make a stop half way in South Carolina. I am thinking at least we will need to do this again.
As an alternative - I might call Sentient and ask if they can source us a Citation Latitude or Legacy 450 which I think will work? But they may consider these Super-Mids?
Otherwise we can upgrade to the Super Mid size category which of course is quite a price jump.
See info below and let me know any thoughts. Thank you....
- Route: TEB to NAS (Teterboro into Nassau Bahamas -- Just about 1,000 nautical miles?)
- Passengers: 7 adults + 1 child (about 1,300 lbs) + 2 pilots (400lbs)
- Luggage: 8 mid/large bags + 3 golf bags (about 550 lbs)
- Total weight excluding fuel = 2,250 lbs
We have hours with Sentient Jet and typically fly their Midsize jets -- Hawker 800, Citation XLS, Lear 60 etc. Usually only the XLS will work for us due to large luggage.
Can someone help with me with maximum weight for our trip combined with our routing?
I am not sure we will fit or be able to do non-stop due to pass/weight.
Last time we flew 6 pass + little less luggage and had to make a stop half way in South Carolina. I am thinking at least we will need to do this again.
As an alternative - I might call Sentient and ask if they can source us a Citation Latitude or Legacy 450 which I think will work? But they may consider these Super-Mids?
Otherwise we can upgrade to the Super Mid size category which of course is quite a price jump.
See info below and let me know any thoughts. Thank you....
- Route: TEB to NAS (Teterboro into Nassau Bahamas -- Just about 1,000 nautical miles?)
- Passengers: 7 adults + 1 child (about 1,300 lbs) + 2 pilots (400lbs)
- Luggage: 8 mid/large bags + 3 golf bags (about 550 lbs)
- Total weight excluding fuel = 2,250 lbs
Mar 29, 2024, 3:12 pm
#3
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Wanting First. Buying First.
Programs: Lifetime Executive Diamond Platinum VIP with Braniff, Eastern, Midway, National & Pan Am
Posts: 17,492
Hi all,
We have hours with Sentient Jet and typically fly their Midsize jets -- Hawker 800, Citation XLS, Lear 60 etc. Usually only the XLS will work for us due to large luggage.
Can someone help with me with maximum weight for our trip combined with our routing?
I am not sure we will fit or be able to do non-stop due to pass/weight.
Last time we flew 6 pass + little less luggage and had to make a stop half way in South Carolina. I am thinking at least we will need to do this again.
As an alternative - I might call Sentient and ask if they can source us a Citation Latitude or Legacy 450 which I think will work? But they may consider these Super-Mids?
Otherwise we can upgrade to the Super Mid size category which of course is quite a price jump.
See info below and let me know any thoughts. Thank you....
- Route: TEB to NAS (Teterboro into Nassau Bahamas -- Just about 1,000 nautical miles?)
- Passengers: 7 adults + 1 child (about 1,300 lbs) + 2 pilots (400lbs)
- Luggage: 8 mid/large bags + 3 golf bags (about 550 lbs)
- Total weight excluding fuel = 2,250 lbs
We have hours with Sentient Jet and typically fly their Midsize jets -- Hawker 800, Citation XLS, Lear 60 etc. Usually only the XLS will work for us due to large luggage.
Can someone help with me with maximum weight for our trip combined with our routing?
I am not sure we will fit or be able to do non-stop due to pass/weight.
Last time we flew 6 pass + little less luggage and had to make a stop half way in South Carolina. I am thinking at least we will need to do this again.
As an alternative - I might call Sentient and ask if they can source us a Citation Latitude or Legacy 450 which I think will work? But they may consider these Super-Mids?
Otherwise we can upgrade to the Super Mid size category which of course is quite a price jump.
See info below and let me know any thoughts. Thank you....
- Route: TEB to NAS (Teterboro into Nassau Bahamas -- Just about 1,000 nautical miles?)
- Passengers: 7 adults + 1 child (about 1,300 lbs) + 2 pilots (400lbs)
- Luggage: 8 mid/large bags + 3 golf bags (about 550 lbs)
- Total weight excluding fuel = 2,250 lbs
The other two: XLS and Lear 60XR are ill-suited to TEB-NAS with a full load of passengers and baggage. Also 8 seats is not a widespread configuration on the XLS or Lear 60XR; 7 seats is most common configuration unless you want to make someone sit on a belted toilet seat all the way to the Bahamas.
So, bottom line, H800XP is the only mid cabin that stands a chance of working and even then you have a problem with all your baggage (space, not weight).
Edited to add: Legacy 450/Praetor 500 and Latitude likely to be priced in the charter market much closer to super-mids. Also I've seen 7-place aircraft in both of those fleets. You really should be looking for a true super-mid like a Challenger 300 or a Legacy 500/Praetor 600. Citation Sovereign might also work.
Remember, Textron took the Citation Sovereign+ and decided to phase it out rather than cannibalize Latitude sales. Because what everyone really craves is a slower aircraft with fewer seats!
Last edited by Herb687; Mar 29, 2024 at 3:27 pm
Apr 1, 2024, 8:03 am
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2022
Posts: 16
Pilots are already included in a bizjet's basic operating weight. Max payload for a Hawker 800XP is around 2,050 lbs (actual BOWs of different serial numbers vary due to configuration, installed equipment, etc.). So, at least on payload, you should be fine on a H800XP. And range at max payload is easily 2000+ nautical miles. Problem though, as any frequent Hawker pax knows, is where to put those golf clubs. Payload isn't the issue on Hawkers; cube out is.
The other two: XLS and Lear 60XR are ill-suited to TEB-NAS with a full load of passengers and baggage. Also 8 seats is not a widespread configuration on the XLS or Lear 60XR; 7 seats is most common configuration unless you want to make someone sit on a belted toilet seat all the way to the Bahamas.
So, bottom line, H800XP is the only mid cabin that stands a chance of working and even then you have a problem with all your baggage (space, not weight).
Edited to add: Legacy 450/Praetor 500 and Latitude likely to be priced in the charter market much closer to super-mids. Also I've seen 7-place aircraft in both of those fleets. You really should be looking for a true super-mid like a Challenger 300 or a Legacy 500/Praetor 600. Citation Sovereign might also work.
Remember, Textron took the Citation Sovereign+ and decided to phase it out rather than cannibalize Latitude sales. Because what everyone really craves is a slower aircraft with fewer seats!
The other two: XLS and Lear 60XR are ill-suited to TEB-NAS with a full load of passengers and baggage. Also 8 seats is not a widespread configuration on the XLS or Lear 60XR; 7 seats is most common configuration unless you want to make someone sit on a belted toilet seat all the way to the Bahamas.
So, bottom line, H800XP is the only mid cabin that stands a chance of working and even then you have a problem with all your baggage (space, not weight).
Edited to add: Legacy 450/Praetor 500 and Latitude likely to be priced in the charter market much closer to super-mids. Also I've seen 7-place aircraft in both of those fleets. You really should be looking for a true super-mid like a Challenger 300 or a Legacy 500/Praetor 600. Citation Sovereign might also work.
Remember, Textron took the Citation Sovereign+ and decided to phase it out rather than cannibalize Latitude sales. Because what everyone really craves is a slower aircraft with fewer seats!
Thank you - I appreciate all the detail. Definitely agree that the XLS, Hawkers, Lears won't work for the trip.
We're planning to tell the rep to try to source either a Latitude or Legacy 450 in 8pax configure which should be fine from a weight/range/luggage space perspective. Sentient did say the Latitude is considered in their Mid category but not regularly sourced.
Still a bit tight for 8 although wider/6ft stand up cabin is great. And if they cannot source one of those that week, we'll make the jump to a true Super Mid.
Let me know if you think a Latitude would present any issues with this trip. Payload & range look far better and 100+ cu/ft for bags.
Apr 2, 2024, 11:29 am
#5
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Wanting First. Buying First.
Programs: Lifetime Executive Diamond Platinum VIP with Braniff, Eastern, Midway, National & Pan Am
Posts: 17,492
Thank you - I appreciate all the detail. Definitely agree that the XLS, Hawkers, Lears won't work for the trip.
We're planning to tell the rep to try to source either a Latitude or Legacy 450 in 8pax configure which should be fine from a weight/range/luggage space perspective. Sentient did say the Latitude is considered in their Mid category but not regularly sourced.
Still a bit tight for 8 although wider/6ft stand up cabin is great. And if they cannot source one of those that week, we'll make the jump to a true Super Mid.
Let me know if you think a Latitude would present any issues with this trip. Payload & range look far better and 100+ cu/ft for bags.
We're planning to tell the rep to try to source either a Latitude or Legacy 450 in 8pax configure which should be fine from a weight/range/luggage space perspective. Sentient did say the Latitude is considered in their Mid category but not regularly sourced.
Still a bit tight for 8 although wider/6ft stand up cabin is great. And if they cannot source one of those that week, we'll make the jump to a true Super Mid.
Let me know if you think a Latitude would present any issues with this trip. Payload & range look far better and 100+ cu/ft for bags.
You might also want to price shop a Citation Sovereign+ as the standard configuration is an 8-place double club (many Sovereigns have 9 with the addition of a side facing forward seat). The Sov+ doesn't have the Latitude's flat floor (it's the same tube as the Excel/XLS) but it's a better airplane on almost every performance metric. Sovereign+ is considerably faster than the Latitude in addition to having 8 real seats and great short field performance
(But if you do charter a Latitude and decide you love it so much that you want one of your own, I know just where to find a nice used one come 1Q 2025
)
Last edited by Herb687; Apr 2, 2024 at 11:35 am
Apr 2, 2024, 11:39 am
#6
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2022
Posts: 16
Glad to help. I need to check in with my client (Part 91 corporate department, not charter) with a Latitude so let me see if I can get their Director of Aviation to run a sample flight plan for me. I don't see any issues though with a Latitude doing your NAS mission.
You might also want to price shop a Citation Sovereign+ as the standard configuration is an 8-place double club (many Sovereigns have 9 with the addition of a side facing forward seat). The Sov+ doesn't have the Latitude's flat floor (it's the same tube as the Excel/XLS) but it's a better airplane on almost every performance metric. Sovereign+ is considerably faster than the Latitude in addition to having 8 real seats and great short field performance.
You might also want to price shop a Citation Sovereign+ as the standard configuration is an 8-place double club (many Sovereigns have 9 with the addition of a side facing forward seat). The Sov+ doesn't have the Latitude's flat floor (it's the same tube as the Excel/XLS) but it's a better airplane on almost every performance metric. Sovereign+ is considerably faster than the Latitude in addition to having 8 real seats and great short field performance.
The company we use considers a Sovereign as a SuperMid which would bump us up into the next category. They do a flat hourly rate each for Midsize vs Supermid. So I am trying to get the largest plane available that's still considered a Mid (Latitude or Legacy). Otherwise if we end up in the Super category I would push them for something bigger than a Sov+ (like a CL300/G280 etc..)
Apr 3, 2024, 4:55 pm
#7
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Wanting First. Buying First.
Programs: Lifetime Executive Diamond Platinum VIP with Braniff, Eastern, Midway, National & Pan Am
Posts: 17,492
Thanks, that would be great if you could check in with them regarding a Latitude and our trip. But understand if that's too much to ask.
The company we use considers a Sovereign as a SuperMid which would bump us up into the next category. They do a flat hourly rate each for Midsize vs Supermid. So I am trying to get the largest plane available that's still considered a Mid (Latitude or Legacy). Otherwise if we end up in the Super category I would push them for something bigger than a Sov+ (like a CL300/G280 etc..)
The company we use considers a Sovereign as a SuperMid which would bump us up into the next category. They do a flat hourly rate each for Midsize vs Supermid. So I am trying to get the largest plane available that's still considered a Mid (Latitude or Legacy). Otherwise if we end up in the Super category I would push them for something bigger than a Sov+ (like a CL300/G280 etc..)
Apr 4, 2024, 7:28 am
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2022
Posts: 16
I didn't get a detailed flight plan but when I checked with my client who operates a Latitude, the response to stuffed to the gills with passengers, heavy baggage, golf clubs (I specified at least 2100 lbs.) was that the Latitude will do that TEB-NAS no problem whatsoever.
Great to hear that -- I appreciate all your help !