The FT Appeal Process -- does it include an "automatic stay"?
Jan 27, 2009 | 2:02 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Los Angeles
Programs: UA Based on my CC Spend (PLT 25-GLD 26), AA LT 2MM, LY Gold, Bonvoy LT Plt, Mets fan
Posts: 5,077
The FT Appeal Process -- does it include an "automatic stay"?
In civil proceedings at law, a party found liable for damages can have the judgment "stayed" while an appeal is pending; sometimes this requires a bond, sometimes it doesn't.
In criminal proceedings, a party found guilty can be released on bond while an appeal is pending if they aren't deemed to pose a significant risk of flight or further crime.
When an FT member is accused of a TOS violation, and threatened with punitive action, and the member files an appeal, should FT be required to wait until the appeal is decided before punishment is inflicted?
Is there any ruling on this currently in place?
thx.
In criminal proceedings, a party found guilty can be released on bond while an appeal is pending if they aren't deemed to pose a significant risk of flight or further crime.
When an FT member is accused of a TOS violation, and threatened with punitive action, and the member files an appeal, should FT be required to wait until the appeal is decided before punishment is inflicted?
Is there any ruling on this currently in place?
thx.
Jan 27, 2009 | 2:43 pm
#2
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,077
That is not how FT works. The attempted analogy to criminal and civil legal proceedings in a court of law is a non-starter .... at least going by FT's history of operation.
If repeated FT member violations of TOS occur and lead to a suspension, the appeals are post-suspension. That is how things have worked on FT going back for as long as I've been using FT as a lurker and/or poster.
If repeated FT member violations of TOS occur and lead to a suspension, the appeals are post-suspension. That is how things have worked on FT going back for as long as I've been using FT as a lurker and/or poster.
Jan 27, 2009 | 2:44 pm
#3
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,077
Jan 27, 2009 | 2:58 pm
#4
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,077
In civil proceedings at law, a party found liable for damages can have the judgment "stayed" while an appeal is pending; sometimes this requires a bond, sometimes it doesn't.
In criminal proceedings, a party found guilty can be released on bond while an appeal is pending if they aren't deemed to pose a significant risk of flight or further crime.
When an FT member is accused of a TOS violation, and threatened with punitive action, and the member files an appeal, should FT be required to wait until the appeal is decided before punishment is inflicted?
Is there any ruling on this currently in place?
thx.
In criminal proceedings, a party found guilty can be released on bond while an appeal is pending if they aren't deemed to pose a significant risk of flight or further crime.
When an FT member is accused of a TOS violation, and threatened with punitive action, and the member files an appeal, should FT be required to wait until the appeal is decided before punishment is inflicted?
Is there any ruling on this currently in place?
thx.
Jan 27, 2009 | 3:10 pm
#5
Founder of FlyerTalk
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 6,540
Thanks for the question and I hope you don't mind a lengthly answer.
First and foremost, FlyerTalk really doesn't compare itself to any civil and or legal system. That's really not how the Internet was born and really not a comparison to how individual forums and travel communities operate. I mention this because I really have no experience with what you have posted and trying to compare to and as such, don't have a valid answer to your specific questions. Thinks like "punitive" and "stay" are perhaps more appropriate to another topic involving the actual legal system.
Here's a few thoughts on the topic as I understand it. First of all, you might be best informed that FlyerTalk operates on a volunteer basis. Our members volunteer their information to the benefit of others. Some volunteers go to the length of the infamous quote from JFK and ask what they they can do for FlyerTalk, rather than what FlyerTalk can do for them and go on to be volunteers to help others on FlyerTalk find information, post to the appropriate forums and when necessary, remind members that FlyerTalk works best when we ALL exhibit a common manner of respect and politeness to our fellow members. These volunteers like myself are unpaid and are called upon at times to interpret the TOS for others and at times, make judgment calls in certain behavior and actions of our members -- similar in all ways that other major travel and other topic communities operate on the Internet. Many have even adopted by plagiarism and rewrite, our exact TOS which has always been highly admired by others if you consider being copied a compliment.
And we have an appeals process. It is interesting to note, and you can do your research, that FlyerTalk was the first and might still be, only travel community and forum on the Internet that actually has an appeals process. All the ones that I have ever researched had no method of redress for an appeal. Another factoid that I've always had pride in.
As for your question, again, I can't agree that a comparison of any existing civil or criminal comparison really applies here. I really had no plans for that type of environment when starting FlyerTalk and have no desire to convert to that system now. I'm fairly comfortable that the system we have in place works far more often than it does not and really, at the end of the day, aren't we just talking about a difference of opinion? I mean, when a member appeals a suspension, isn't their view of the action against another's? Really, could one possibly think that every POV than theirs is incorrect?
As for the appeals process, it is addressed as rapidly as possible considering again that we are all volunteers here and many of us do actually earn the frequent flyer miles we boast of proudly. If an appeal is won by the member, and I think about 20% of them are (just a guess, only) then if the suspension is not completed, it's back to posting. If it is, the suspension is retracted from their record and poses no hinderance to the progressive policy we have.
Hope this helps.
(NOTE: while you point to the civil and criminal policies, you do know that the jails in countries around the world are full of people waiting for the legal system just to hear their case and that there are hundreds of thousands of others in prison and jail waiting to hear the outcome of their appeal. This point is made only to balance what i think you were trying to say from a single side of an argument)
First and foremost, FlyerTalk really doesn't compare itself to any civil and or legal system. That's really not how the Internet was born and really not a comparison to how individual forums and travel communities operate. I mention this because I really have no experience with what you have posted and trying to compare to and as such, don't have a valid answer to your specific questions. Thinks like "punitive" and "stay" are perhaps more appropriate to another topic involving the actual legal system.
Here's a few thoughts on the topic as I understand it. First of all, you might be best informed that FlyerTalk operates on a volunteer basis. Our members volunteer their information to the benefit of others. Some volunteers go to the length of the infamous quote from JFK and ask what they they can do for FlyerTalk, rather than what FlyerTalk can do for them and go on to be volunteers to help others on FlyerTalk find information, post to the appropriate forums and when necessary, remind members that FlyerTalk works best when we ALL exhibit a common manner of respect and politeness to our fellow members. These volunteers like myself are unpaid and are called upon at times to interpret the TOS for others and at times, make judgment calls in certain behavior and actions of our members -- similar in all ways that other major travel and other topic communities operate on the Internet. Many have even adopted by plagiarism and rewrite, our exact TOS which has always been highly admired by others if you consider being copied a compliment.
And we have an appeals process. It is interesting to note, and you can do your research, that FlyerTalk was the first and might still be, only travel community and forum on the Internet that actually has an appeals process. All the ones that I have ever researched had no method of redress for an appeal. Another factoid that I've always had pride in.
As for your question, again, I can't agree that a comparison of any existing civil or criminal comparison really applies here. I really had no plans for that type of environment when starting FlyerTalk and have no desire to convert to that system now. I'm fairly comfortable that the system we have in place works far more often than it does not and really, at the end of the day, aren't we just talking about a difference of opinion? I mean, when a member appeals a suspension, isn't their view of the action against another's? Really, could one possibly think that every POV than theirs is incorrect?
As for the appeals process, it is addressed as rapidly as possible considering again that we are all volunteers here and many of us do actually earn the frequent flyer miles we boast of proudly. If an appeal is won by the member, and I think about 20% of them are (just a guess, only) then if the suspension is not completed, it's back to posting. If it is, the suspension is retracted from their record and poses no hinderance to the progressive policy we have.
Hope this helps.
(NOTE: while you point to the civil and criminal policies, you do know that the jails in countries around the world are full of people waiting for the legal system just to hear their case and that there are hundreds of thousands of others in prison and jail waiting to hear the outcome of their appeal. This point is made only to balance what i think you were trying to say from a single side of an argument)