Concerns about increased level of hostility on FT
 

Randy (and all),

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, so if it isn't, I hope a moderator will move it.

Over the past couple of months, I have become concerned about what seems to be a tremendous rise in the level of hostility on several of the boards, including the airline and hotel boards. Sarcastic responses seem to have become the norm when an OP asks a question that the general membership does not find to be worthy, and responses are often something along the lines of "Do a search, that's been answered a thousand times." If I were a newbie, I would be scared to ask a question for fear of being ridiculed. I understand that different personalities address questions different ways, but I have definitely noticed an increase of "tough" responses over the past year. If you want, I will follow up and point out some individual threads.

In any case, I'm not trying to sound all high and mighty, but maybe it would be time to send out a friendly reminder about the mission of FT. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!

Mike

The reasons for this have been exhaustively debated and documented.

Good example! ^

Interestingly, we seem to be waffling back and forth between those complaining about the volume of newbies and those complaining about rudeness to newbies.

For example, this thread from August is about FT bring too newbie-friendly, while this thread starts with complaints about the signal-to-noise ratio and eventually goes off on a tangent about how to respond to newbie questions.

I'm pretty sure there are at least a couple other recent (recent = last 6 mos) threads about these issues, too.

I guess we are back to "be nice to newbies"? :)

From a personal standpoint, as I've stated before, the few times I actually happen to be in the right place at the right time, I try to point newbies in the right direction in a polite manner.

Distinguishing between Newbies and Trolls
 

I think it is conceptually important to distinguish between newbies and trolls.

I personally find the "search" response to be inappropriate in almost *every* circumstance. I have been here longer than just about anyone else (I just noticed that I have the same "Join Date" as Randy, so I guess that confims "longer than just about anyone else"), and I generally don't use search. Now, because I have been here so long, I think I know many of the answers to the basic questions. But on the occasions when I do use search I don't find it to be 100% effective, and if you don't know the right "key" words, your chances of finding the information you want are substantially lower. People who don't like stupid newbie questions shouldn't answer stupid newbie questions, IMO. Saying "Use 'search'" takes *more* time and requires me to read a longer thread before I see whether there is a real answer.

On the other hand we have the trolls/repeat posters. I personally think that the instance of trolls is lower than what it might appear from some members comments. Are there troll postings? Yes. But I see a lot of other postings which are labeled as "troll" because a certain group of loyalists in a certain forum don't appreciate what they perceive as "attacks." But, in some circumstances, it is my opinion that they are potentially legitimate complaints. And even if the OP is a troll, the discussion which follows can actually have substantial value and interest.

By the way, that is an important concept. Did I mention that one of the reasons I look at this board several times a day, for several years, is because I find it interesting? Do I want substantive info? Sure. But I don't come here several times a day expecting to find new facts every time. Many of my visits are in the hopes that I will be entertained or challenged or excited by something dealing with one of my favorite subjects - travel.

Yes, sometimes feeding the trolls is fun! You never know, they might have a valid point.

Like sbrower, I have been here for a long, long time, but I never find newbie questions boring or irrelevant. I am always thrilled to help.

We were all newbies once. Even in the very beginning there were some posters who knew a lot and some of us who knew very little. Those who knew a lot were generous and polite to even the most ignorant original newbie (count me in that group). They really held our hands and walked us along the path to mega miles and points. Through their kindness and generosity, I accomplished all of my mile and point goals, and now sit on an admirable stash of miles and points that would last even the most avid traveler a lifetime. ^ ^

I am certain that, if I had been greeted with a "do a search" response in my first few months on FlyerTalk, I would have simply gone away and never come back.

Kindness, generosity are, in the end, worth even more than miles and points.

I tend to take a middle road with "newbie" questions. I don't mind answering them when the chance arises, but I also like to let them know that there is a search capability. And that searching opens one to a lot more information than just asking the question.

So I tend to answer the question and then let the poster know that they can find more information by searching for themselves.

I do agree with the OP that there are definitely some forums that are more, lets say brusque, with their answers. Personally, I think the use of sarcasm in answering a new FTers question is almost always uncalled for. It will usually be taken by the OP as an attack. And will quite often then degrade the thread into a "namecalling" match.

Tough.

Personally, I don't think it's too much to expect newcomers to take a few minutes after enrolling to walk through a forum's stickies as they are more often than not an invaluable place to start as many of the common questions are answered all in one place. The BA forum's Ultimate BA Guide springs to mind as being one example.

I will have to plead guilty to not welcoming newcomers at times and in places in the past but resolved a while back to exhibit a kinder, gentler attitude to recent arrivals to these online shores. :)

I'm an advocate (and frequent vocal proponent) of the "search" function. I almost invariably do the search using very simple terms that come from the OPs title or post to show just how easy it is (recent example- post about the "new" upgrade copay for AA flights to Hawaii where the OP said that search did not find anything....guess what, search terms "upgrade hawaii" brought up a 187-post thread from several weeks ago with much information).

Sure, we could answer the questions each and every time. Then, when someone actually does try to look for themselves, and not just expect everyone else to do their work for them, they find a few dozen really short, almost useless threads. Why is fragmenting the information a good thing? Clearly, it must be since not advocating searach is directly inviting that.

I'd be interested to hear how those who just answer without suggesting search feel that this distribution of the same information in a larger number of threads helps, because I just don't get it.

Cheers.

Excellent example. I know virtually nothing about BA, as an AA flyer. Well, I was flying BA and went there to get some info. I spent some time and found out how to OLCI for international flights (had no idea I could do that there). I even found a way to "beat the system" and join BAEC without earning a single tier point (and figured out what a tier point was). I didn't feel I should post to ask about it when the information was readilly available.

Newbies may be ner here, but unlikely new to computer and web technology. They've searched somewhere. Why not expect it here as well?

Cheers.

"Give a man a fish and he has food for a day; teach a man to fish and you have fed him for a lifetime."

Although perhaps OP is suggesting they way some of us are teaching the newbies to fish for information here on FT could be somewhat refined. ;)

Different people will read different qualities into a single post. Some might find a post to be rude, others might not.

What I have noticed in the past several months is a marked rise in the following scenario:

1. Newbie starts thread asking a question that is answered in the forum's FAQs, in the Wiki, and in half a dozen threads started in the last 3 months.
2. Veteran answers Newbie's question, and then politely tells him how he found that answer.
3. 8 more newbies jump the veteran with sarcastic posts demanding that he stop even mentioning the existence of a search function, and demanding that he immediately cease any implication that a newbie could find information any other way than by starting a new thread to ask a question.

We have trained them well.

Sorry, as noted above, the motto seems to be:

"Teach a man to fish and he, and several other amateur fisherman, will crap all over you for giving them a fishing pole and not just handing over the freakin' fish"

Cheers.

I'm a huge advocate of search/FAQs. Aswering "What is Global Services?" once a week gets tiring.

I welcome newbies and their input, but my thought is: If i'm thinking about it, someone may have already asked the question. So, I search and I personally try to use the most abstract terms, like if I were to search for 'Global Services,' I'd probably just look for 'Global' and wade through pages of junk not to miss anything I'm looking for.

Teaching one to fish is better than just feeding them.

I think most of us here agree. It's just the criticism one gets for the fishing lesson that get old, the comments that my fishing line is broken, the fish aren't biting, and the old fisherpersons (how's that for PC :)) are just plain mean.

I still take that approach, and just deal with the barbs.

Cheers.

I concur. Of course, the "wade throu pages of junk" problem is exercebated by two tendencies here on FT. First is the splintering of information by the tactic of "just answering the question" without referring the OP to the existing recent thread on the exact same topic. This ensures that while the new thread may contain new information not contained in the original, there will be heaps of repeated information that you will have to wade through to get that new information. And, of course, all the information in the original thread will not be repeated in the new one, so you will have to wade through that also. And, in reality, it isn't just a second thread, there will be a dozen or more, and 95% of each one will be just a repeat of the others.

The second tendency is poor thread titles, which proliferate because veterans who suggest a more descriptive thread title than "Hey! Gimme some help!" will be jumped on by a dozen of the same newbies who will complain that search returns too many threads to have to read every one. Of course it does, that's why the threads have titles, so that you can only open those that appear to pertain to the topic you are researching, but these folks can't see the irony of their positions.

In short, we are getting an influx of newbies who have absolutely no grasp of the way a board like this works. This is the "Ask Jeeves" generation, and they don't understand the distinction between getting an automated response to their question and taking up the time of one of a very few knowledgable people to save them the effort of researching their own questions. The idea of actually contributing to the community is totally foreign to them, so they never open a thread to see if they might have an answer to someone else's problem, they just go away until the next question pops into their head, at which point, they come back and start another thread.

Thanks for the post and I think I can appreciate where you are coming from on this. Like you, I am more pleased with the original mission of FlyerTalk. From what i understand in my ongoing research of where Bulletin Boards are right now and where they are going, it's really a reflection on the Internet and not really that of FlyerTalk. A few observations: There is likely a few things we can do on FlyerTalk to assist members in their answers. Actually, that was the original intent and still is for our moderators. Fact is that it is more convenient to just start typing than it is to ask a question. One of the things we are implementing with the last upgrade, was a new messaging system that will allow us a more complete way to first talk to new members of FlyerTalk. A better explanation of these things will likely do wonders. As well, we have been toying with the idea (one from about 6-7 years ago) to have a "Newbies Only" section (may or may not be within each forum, still pondering those ramifications) in which some of the more experienced members who do like to answer questions will assist them - outside of the mainstream of the forum itself. Then once the newbies sort of "get it" they will feel more comfortable with the forum itself. now, having said that, we are also looking to endorse in an even better way, the establishment of a better Q/A for each program so that it becomes a better way to help members intuitively. A few forums have these, but not all and each effort can become better with the help of our members.

Anyway, this is on the radar and i think you'll see some things in the near future. As for some members who remain hostile - we would hope that the efforts of our members to address this situation would be acknowledged and maybe convince them that newbies often do have things to offer once they are welcomed into the community. If we all do a good job showing them the answers, they will in turn answer the next generation of newbies.

And we still haven't let up from trying to configure the right solution for search on FlyerTalk. Almost all larger boards have the very same challenges and from what we can tell, no one have a perfect solution yet. We are however involved in a possible solution now and perhaps later next week will have some news on it.

Again thanks.

I tend to get less upset that newbies (and even some non-newbies) don't use search, but

1) that they don't use the stickies. In most forums either the moderators or other members have spent EXTENSIVE amounts of times putting together incredible stickies with everything from base to advanced knowledge. I think these are terribly under appreciated and under utilized. I know in the DL forum our mods had to have spent 1000's of hours on them and I still see the same base questions posted that are DEFINITELY answered in these. And these stickies have GREAT tables of contents to them, so its not so you cant find the data

2) do not look at even the first page of current threads before starting a new one, too often they open a new thread when the same question was asked 4 lines down.

I will agree the search function itself can be a bit clunky, but FT is NOT a hard place for newbies to find info, in many cases they just dont choose to look!

Randy I think this is a GREAT idea! And would be mroe than willing to volunteer to be part of it. As I read your post I almost wondered if we need some kind of FT "welcome wagon" where a group of people get a list of who is new each day (I say this not knowing how many new registrations there are a day and if it is rational to do) and could proactively welcome these people and offer to be a 'mentor' to them. Possibly even dividing the new registrations up by major program (if they list them when registered) so their welcome would come from someone from the board/boards they are most likely to frequent.

Another thought..and I know this would take a lot of work (again I post this being fully willing to be one of the members who helps put it together) but what about having some kind of "new poster chat/workshop" given a couple times a week (lead by a rotating team of volunteers, not asking Randy to take this on also). Where we could cover stickies, tos, searching and so on. YES I know this is all covered in the help sections, quite well, but this would allow a more interactive venue that might attract people more than sitting around just reading. I hesitate to post that it would be mandatory to attend before posting (cause I am not sure I like that idea) but it might be an option Randy could ponder.

Another option, a flash type intro program which covers some of the same stuff.

I understand what you are saying about the stickies, Lehava , but I think it tends to be human nature to ignore the stickies, just like it is human nature to plunge right in first, and then only read the directions when our instincts fail.

FlyerTalk was the very first bulletin board I every visited. When I came here I wouldn't have known a stickie from a banana peel, and search was a totally foreign concept. Heck, I still have a hard time coming up with the exactly right combination of search terms to find the precise answers I want.

Part of the beauty (maybe most of the beauty), of a bulletin board, from my point of view, is that it is a naturally flowing interaction between human beings from all over the world. If it comes to the point where all of the questions have been asked, answered and indexed, the interactive responses between human beings cease to exist and instead of a bulletin board, we have an electronic travel manual. Not that there would be anything wrong with an excellent electronic travel manual, but it wouldn't be a bulletin board.

Actually, for many of us who have been around since the beginning, we already really do know everything we need or want to know about miles and points. That is probably the reason that fora like OMNI and Community are so popular. We still love the community, but don't really have much need for mile and point information.

Personaly, I am glad I joined during the time when all stupid questions were personally and graciously anwered, thereby forming permanent real-life friendships in the process. If you ever do form a Newbie board, I will be happy to go there and answer any questions that I can. I doubt that I could ever give back an amount equal to what I have learned.

I disagree with your assessment... while I do respect your opinions and see your points as very valid there are always some questions that a newbie will -always- ask... the idea behind FAQs and Wiki's is to make the most commonly requested info available to anyone, anytime.

FT's been around since 1998 (in it's current form, i suppose) and you were around when it was a few people communicating, but most of the "wow, that seemed so basic but I never knew that" questions that were asked when you first came around have been answered 100x over at this point.

The volume of traffic here has increased exponentally. I don't mind personally answering questions, but, if it's something that keeps coming up... then it's tedious.

FAQs and such do not stifle discussion. I can assure you that a lot of people are tired of the "What is a Global Services member?" type questions. FAQs handle that just fine. They don't call it Frequently Asked Questions for nothing :D. Point is, it doesn't stifle discussion at all, it actually can enhance it by making sure members are 'armed and ready' when asking questions in the forums.

I think that it's important to point people in the right direction, but in a friendly and helpful way. We also need to remember that newbies may not be familiar with bulletin boards or BB etiquette. They may not have the online experience to do an effective search or know what a sticky is for.

For the people who don't have patience for newbies (and I understand that is the reality too), I just wish they would refrain from responding at all, and allow members who can gently help and explain where they can learn how to navigate FT. It's like mom said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". And since we're disussing quotations, I thought it was, "Teach a man to fish, and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day". :)

I don't know civicmon, until I read your post I didn't even know that there was an FAQ on FT. Prompted by the information you supplied, I went and searched for the FAQ section and typed in "Global Services" and got the following response:

"Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms." :o

It just seems more intuitive and natural for someone involved in a UA discussion to ask, "What's Global Services?" and for someone else to respond, "Some mysterious poo bah UA status that is higher than 1K" than to expect a new person just checking out UA to stop in the middle of his/her discussion and go search for FAQs.

I guess my skim and ignore skills are pretty well tuned because I just ignore the stuff that doesn't really interest me and focus on the the cool stuff.

That may be what you taught your man...;) :D

Randy - I think this is a terrific idea. Might I suggest that you could try it in one forum on an experimental basis, to see if it works, and how to improve it, rather than toying with the idea for too much longer. I think this could be a major improvement to FT, and would like to see it implemented as soon as reasonably possible.

Well, try searching in the UA forum specifically.

The 'faq' under 'help' on the top of the page is woefully inadequate.. more of a vbulletin help vs. anything else.

too tired to go on.. can/may comment again tomorrow.

I believe that we were all new here once and that far too many people on FT tend to forget that.

I further think that today's newbie is tomorrow's old hand. Cut 'em some slack.

Can I ask a favor of those that have issues with the "newbies"? Could you dig back and post your first 5 posts on FT for us?

ScottC, I don't have a problem with newbies but I can tell you about my first post: It was completely off topic.

This was pointed out to me by several members of the Delta Forum -- but in a very friendly and helpful way. They also gave me a warm welcome to FT.

This is the right way to greet a newbie who makes a mistake, not to jump down his throat.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the real issue is whether or not to tell new FTers about searching to find answers. What causes the problems is HOW they are told that. If it is in a condescending or sarcasting reply, then the new poster will probably be put off and get definsive at best, or possibly never post again, or even worse, they may try to "flame" back at whom every replied to them.

I've told many new posters to search for answers, and so far as I know, I don't remember any one of them coming back and firing off "nasty" replies because of it. Yet others state that anytime they recommend a user to search for an answer they get lambasted by everyone. Why the difference? How the reply was worded perhaps?

Here is an excerpt I use when I teach new trainers on how to teach that may be of interest "Researches in communication suggest that many more feelings and intentions are sent and received nonverbally than verbally. Mehrabian and Wienerfollowing suggested that only 7% of message is sent through words, with remaining 93% sent nonverbal expressions (depending on author, verbal part goes up to 35%)." And in "Newsgroup" communications we have very little in the way of nonverbal communication (emoticons is one tool to help with that.) So our posts are very easily misunderstood even by those we know and communicate with on a regular basis, much less someone new.

So if we, the "veterans" can take a little extra time and craft our replies thinking about how a "newbie" might interpret the message, we can convey the same information we want (i.e. do a search, look here, etc.), and not have to worry about being attacked as much either by the new FTer or by someone else. Yes, that means we take a few extra moments to before we post. Is that really that onerous a few moments when the benefit is it might really help someone learn and grow in the FT community? Or as was also mentioned, if one really feels that it is demeaning and a waste of time to do that, then just don't post.

I also agree with others that the concept of a "newbies only" area would be great. It gives the newbies a "safe" area to ask questions and learn. And it does this without causing the "wade throu pages of junk" problem that has been mentioned by some (at least within the main focused forum). Though I would be interested in hearing some of the "one per FT versus one per forum" issues as I can see some pros and cons for each approach.

I also would be more than willing to helpout with that idea in anyway that I can.

It's not the veterans vs. noobs, "do a search" stuff I get annoyed with: it's the veterans vs. veterans, snapping at each other for petty grammar issues, minor points, sarcastic put-downs, etc. It has been fantastic to see moderators take a more proactive & bold stance & just start deleting some of these posts.

This issue about searching for information is currently being addressed with an extensive effort that has been undertaken over the past few months in the Hilton forum.

The preliminary results initially indicate success.

I think a better new member interface could help. These are just a few of my ideas, YMMV:

*If a new member wants to start a thread a screen could come up directing them to perform a search before the system allows the new thread to be created.

*There could be a waiting period before new members are allowed to start a thread.

*New threads, maybe the first 10 that new members start could require approval by the mods before they apprear. I know this would be adding an additional burden on the mods, but it could really cut down on some of the trolling.

IMO the difference between the "do a search" response that is sarcastic and the one that is not equals three words. "Welcome to FlyerTalk"

It's not regular posts that are at issue, it's thread starts. Posting in an existing thread in a "newbie fashion" (for lack of a better term) does not get the same treatment as starting a new thread in that same fashion. Apples and bowling balls, IMO. And the response to the behavior bears that out.

Cheers.

But I know that not all people handle being new in the same way. When I came, I did some homework, and many do. Being new, IMO, is no excuse for not learning the mores and etiquette of a new community before participating.

Cheers.