Verification System
 

The problem of trolls and posters using multiple handles as well as the inability to actually ban a person needs to be considered at this time. I know the ethos of FT has been free to everyone, but would a $1 one time charge to activate a user name really be that big of an issue.

If you were to charge $1 to activate a user name, you could then verify the posters name, and zip code, and perhaps phone number depending on your credit card processor. This would greatly lesson the ability of rogue posters to join FT.

Just a suggestion, but I think most of us would be glad to pay a one time $1 fee. I mention $1 as perhaps this would cover your cost involved with the credit card processing et all. Of course, anyone could still read FT, they just could not post unless they had paid the one time fee.

I agree that we have to do something to get rid of multiple IP trolls. What about a permanent, not free, email???

I don't think I, as a newbie, would ever have started to post (or stayed lurking around for some time)if the site would have asked for my credit-card-number to become a poster.

I am not sure I would have joined either back then if a credit card was needed. However, it is not right to compare how the bbs was then and how it is now. The old days were much easier to manage and the bbs was much smaller. The DL forum has become a real mess with FF and a few other posters. To the point that we would be better off with less posters in return for barring the bad ones.

Me neither - however, a 1 month free trial membership wouldn't be a bad idea and then a dollar after that - but then again, i wouldn't want to see this become a pay subscription site if that was at all possible - just my opinion...

One month free defeats the entire point of user verification. Then the trolls would just change user names each month. It would be a one time $1 fee, for the sole purpose of proving your name is correct and only one of you is posting.

How does this make it a paid site, it is not monthly, it is one time.

This issue has been around on Flyertalk for a long time...since the first few months of the board. It is about the most divisive one we’ve had.

We have had people having entire conversations with themselves under alternate ID’s, people pretending to be entire families harassing airline employees, Trolls, multiple posters, etc. We have also had (and still have) “class clowns” that are seemingly above the rules. People have been “timed out” for infractions, people have been banned for infractions. Bans have been lifted.

This specific issue has even precipitated the formation of alternate internet mileage bulletin boards. But then this issue’s divisiveness for all intents and purposes brought down those boards (although shells of their initial promise still exist) and some integrity-free personal associations that went with them.

Personally for me, this one issue has changed me from a dedicated fan and supporter of Flyertalk (we used to be called “evangelists”) to an occasional user of my forums of interest, totally uninterested in the political forums and issues like Talkboard, community, moderation, etc.

As a slightly more exclusive community of verified participants, Flyertalk or a similar site could have been a place with dignity and sophistication – a real voice for the frequent traveler, communicating with the sell side of the industry with a strong and respected voice. Instead, it is a place that is replete with fake IDs, where it’s just as likely that the guy you’re chatting with is either a real million miler or a high school kid with an imagination. As such, no one in the travel industry takes it as seriously as they could. That’s not meant to be an insult – it’s just the facts and a shame.

This is what Flyertalk is. Don’t waste your breath and/or time on what it could be or can be, or get sucked into the endless circular debates of who would or would not have been here if, if, if.

Don’t try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Very well said and very sad. When I started posting on FT a few years ago, the DL forum was a place of great knowledge and resources. It is now a place that is filled with people who defend DL to know end, are not interested in helping increasing ones accumulation of miles, and whose sole purpose seems to be to disrupt and discredit the bbs. This has happened in the past, and will happen again unless some type of process is put in place to curb such behavior. Banning people is not enough, positive verification of some type is required. Otherwise, FT will stay what it is now, a public form with no respect from those who matter the most.

One problem would be that it would alienate many foreign posters as many foreign cc's verification is done differently.

It would actually benefit the foriegn trolls, as many foreign verifcation systems only check the surname and not postal code phone number and so forth.

Many of the airline employees who, understandably, need to maintain anonimity would be put off signing up if they had to provide any info that could be used to indentify them.

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Gaza's oneworld & Star Alliance Round the World Information Pages - www.rtw-info.co.uk

This is a valid concern, and I believe that it is something that could be worked out. Airlines would not have access to such info unless a crime was commited that warrented a court order.

Trolls are annoying but to be honest Flyertalk seems reasonably troll free compared to most other Internet boards. We have a fair amount of members that are able to detect trolls and with our moderators most problems are solved pretty fast. I don't think the trouble and cost of a verification system would be justified just because of a couple of trolls.

The DL board has been plagued with Trolls to the point it has become nothing more then battles lately.

All the verifcation systems I have done for boards this size, the $1 to $3 verfication fee covers the cost.

I agree. Whats more important... quantity of members or quality of members...?

What exactly do you consider a troll?

If a troll violates the FT TOS then the moderators should request a timeout and/or ban based on email and/or IP. If the "troll" is just someone you all find annoying then sadly you will have to learn to live with it. An internet board has people from all over the world, all shapes, sizes etc... and there will always be members that are considered "annoying", that isn't a reason to implement a costly verification system.

I think the power of Flyertalk is that new users become "hooked" after asking a quick question, if they have to pass through a verification process first I doubt Flyertalk would be the board it is today.

There are several trolls on the DL board.... (I use this term broadly, and it has nothing to do with posting things I do not agree wiht). Posters who use multiple names! They use dial up service or reboot, so the IP changes every time. IP is not a system that roots out all multiple user name domains and is easy to get around using IP masking systems. We have professional trouble makers in the DL board. IP only works if you involve law enforcement and get a warrent to get user names from the ISP.

It is time for FT to put in place a system to make the board professional as it used to be.

I agree with JRF that there is a problem at the DL board. I do believe however that it is one or possibly two individuals who are phreaking. I think that most of us (including Randy and JRF) know who it is and I wonder if there is not a real world way of getting him to go away again (restraining order possibly??).

JRF is right on the money. We have had repeated instances of trolls causing problems on the DL board. There is no doubt in my mind as to the identity of one of those individuals. We would benefit from an identity verification system for the board.

If I get it correct there is a major troll in the Delta board and the solution would be to apply verification to all of FT? I think it's better to solve this problem at the source, the troll in this case. If very active moderation is performed by locking each account the troll uses he/she will eventually give up. It's also possible to restrict access to the DL board to certain posters who could "apply" for access after proving their identity.

You are not seeing the entire picture. If what you have said could be done, we would be set.

Trolls are and have been a problem on all boards at different times. There is no way currently to stop someone from being banned and signing up the next day with a new user ID, or many user IDs.

FT would be a much better assett to all of us if it were more professional. Here is an example of what some trolls have done to other boards and who they may infact turn out to be: troll example

Editied for a typo

[This message has been edited by JRF (edited 07-28-2003).]

Scott's suggestion seems sound to me although i do not have all the info.

I visit the DL board fairly regularly but am not aware of the problem person, but as Rssrsvp is a DL moderator clearly (at least) one exists by his post above.

There are 4 moderators there and I guess all also have a pretty good idea who it is? It seems many others here also know who this person is .... has Randy or FT staff emailed the person involved?

The problem is that as soon as you ban someone, they just sign up again with a new user name. IP addresses are not what everyone seems to think they are. They serve no real purpose other then help track trolls. If you really want to use the IP to know for sure, you need to involve law enforcement. What is the big deal with having to pay $1 one time? The profits would go to Randy et all to support the board as well.

What is the big deal with having to pay $1 one time?

no problem about $1 (or more) - but I will just not give my credit-card info right away when visiting a (for me) new board - even more so if the delicate info would have to be sent through an unsecured email.

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The simple fact is that many fols just will NOT pay to register!

Long ago I'd suggested the possibility of undertaking the creation of a special "premium" section, subdivision of the FT boards, which despite being a kind of division in the board itself, might create a solution, at least in part to some of these issues, no? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And NEVER, EVER, send a credit card number anywhere using standard unsecured email!

-Mark

You wont have to pay to look around and read posts, only to post. If what you find is not interesting enough to warrent $1, then perhaps you are one of the posters we will loose as a result of the $1 fee.

We are looking to keep high quality standards and get rid of the riff raff which is becmoming ONCE AGAIN not nice.

As far as the concern about using a credit card over an unsercured internet connection, please assume we are not iddiots. If this were to be done, I am sure that Randy et all would have it as kosher and seemless as possible.

Seems so far everyone who is against this idea is against it for technology problems that are not factual or correct.

The real question is, if you can read for free, would a new person join if they had to pay $1. I think they would, after reading a few threads, they would see what a great place it was (after we rooted out a few bad people) and the $1 would not be a hinderance.

As I said before, don’t let yourself get caught-up in the circular logic of those who do not want verification. It is a waste of time.

They will tell you that it is not technically possible to have a functional, cost effective safe verification system, and you will spend hours going over each objection point by point showing them in great detail that it is technically possible, done at lots of other sites, and not a problem. Then, just as you’ve made your point and expect an “oh, I see you’re right”, they’ll change tactics and begin to argue why it will keep people away and they would never have joined if they had to be verified. You’ll then spend hours debugging that myth and showing why a slightly greater level of exclusivity wouldn’t keep away anyone except those we want kept away and show how it has worked at many other websites. Then again, just when a normal person would say “oh, I see you’re right”, they’ll change tactics and begin to argue about technical impossibilities again as if you hadn’t already proved that one incorrect.

Xenophobes opposed to the idea of verification just are, and no amount of showing them facts will make them see “black” as anything other than “white”.

I agree with you - but give it up. It’s useless trying to convince these people, and Randy wisely refuses to get in the middle.

It is a real shame, FT used to be a respected place on the web. Most people I know that used to visit and or visit and post have left. Randy should cherish what he has created and take the next step to protect it from becoming a gossip trash talk site verses a great resource.

NJDavid, very valid points, but my main objection is that the problem seems to be mainly on the DL board as I don't hear anyone mentioning major problems in the other boards. If DL is suffering a lot from this troll then perhaps it's time that the DL board is changed so it requires some kind of authorization to post to. I honestly don't think that a full blown verification system for FT is needed just because of one board.

What I personally think is that some people are just simply not used to the idea that Flyertalk has grown, the "good old days" are gone and we will soon be reaching 2 million posts. The days when Flyertalk was just 50 people being happy and merry are long gone, with growth comes many things we don't like and sadly large boards attract trolls. I host and maintain over 4 boards that are in size and traffic twice the size of Flyertalk and can assure you that the situation here is pretty amazing, the DL troll seems to be just one person if I am not mistaken, many boards have 100's of these people, rendering the board completely useless.

Have you considered that this thread is exactly what the troll wants? To be honest, I've read all current 3 pages on the DL board and actually fail to see the real problem, I see one poster who attracts a lot of attention and lot's of hassle given to the moderators who's every action is questioned and ridiculed. If you folks at the DL board didn't give this guy so much attention the problem wouldn't be there in the first place, trolls don't do well when they don't get attention.

The technical part of the verification is portrayed to be "easy", well UBB 5.47 doesn't have any system in place for user verification so it would either be a manual issue or would require a major rewrite of the membership code, people want to post NOW, not tomorrow when the payment is processed.

Flyertalk has become so big simply because anyone can post, shutting that down would be the end of the growth. I am pretty sure I never would have registered if I had to pass on my CC information.

So, IMHO let's not blow this out of proportion, it's ONE or maybe two people annoying you and I feel that does not warrant a verification system for everyone on Flyertalk. This troll is so persistent that a simple CC transaction isn't going to stop him. What if FT implements this and the troll simply pulls one of his cards to troll on again? Even then the legality of calling or writing him to stop is pretty vague. Would your system be required for ALL new members or ALL current members too? FT's membership numbers would drop like a brick.

I don't believe this at all, the "good old days" were often much worse than they are now. There hasn't been a lifetime ban or timeout for over a year now.

So, we should give any weight to your advice when your boards are "completely useless". We are trying to prevent just what you have wound up with.

I have to agree with you. Let Randy deal with the problems personally, he must have nothing better to do.

the good old days were really good - the good new (present) days I judge as good as the old ones (some things got worse, others got much better).

I meet new pleasant FlyerTalkers online daily - I meet new pleasant FlyerTalkers in person at least once a month (in August a total of 12 FlyerTalkers will visit us at our Wengen place, in individual small groups of 2 or 4).

I like the way FlyerTalk did (and still does) grow.

Looking back, I believe that while the absolute number of 'trolls' (by any ones definition) increased, the percentage of such decreased - and my own FlyerTalk-friends-address book just got past 1'000 addresses lately.

Don't get me wrong, we SHOULD give weight to it, but not more than it deserves. A couple of trolls doesn't warrant major changes. I think harsher moderation for a period might help, after that and if the situation deteriorates it's time for other measures.

Folks, I think you are missing JRF's point. If we had a verification process, it would eliminate people posting under multiple identities. This has taken place many times and on many boards during the short life of FT. It is not something unique to the DL board. Randy has a business to run as well as supervise FT problems. Often times he is traveling and unavailable. A verification system would make everyone's experience on the boards more enjoyable.

JRF is right on the money in making his suggestion.

Not correct, as recently as last week sanramon got a time out for his behaviour in this thread.

IMO trolls and other unwanted posters still pop up every now and then in almost every active forum. However I agree that until now the mechanisms already in place (other posters unmasking the troll, time outs, etc.) are sufficient to keep the anoyance limited.

[edited for UBB code]

[This message has been edited by ql2112 (edited 07-31-2003).]

My mistake... What I think the main difference is, is that "trolling" isn't banned. The Delta board has a poster that seem the be "annoying" at the very least, but as long as he sticks to the TOS there are no valid reasons to ban him. If FT were to ban annoying people we'd be down to just a handfull of posters left.

If you violate the TOS you get kicked off, if you are annoying you get flamed back by other members.

It is like arguing with the wall!!!!!

TOS prohibits multiple user names.

The ONLY way to stop this is with a verification system.

Surely the easiest way is just not to respond to the Troll !!

Nigel

BINGO! I have had one follow me around for weeks now, comment on anything I post, regardless of the forum. Life became much less stressful when I simply ignored everything they posted.

However if they want to do a credit card, or some other verification system, no problem at all registering. I don't hide who I am.


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Too late is tomorrow's life; live for today.

Martial (1st century), Epigrams, I, 15