Well, I am German and I cannot deny that there is some truth to what you say. But the reason why I react a little bit in a sensitive way to this image of the Germans as the "order freaks" is

1) the context in which the statement is made - it is made in a thread that has "BB Nazi" in the title and

2) the context of some other recent statements I have read on Flyertalk where, whenever a moderation that is perceived as too rigid is criticized, this is described as the "German" style of moderation (the threads about Patron's moderation, who, by the way is Austrian, not German, I think, had plenty of these statements). These statements were for some reason mainly made by some British friends, and when I read their newspapers, especially tabloids, these stereotypes seem to be rehashed over and over again. Well, at least nobody has described rigid moderators as "tanks" yet, something you would see in these tabloids all the time when it comes to referring to Germans.

I find that stereotype a little bit tiring, even though there is probably some truth to it (not the tank stereotype, the "being orderly" stereotype) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.

Plus, I am probably the living exception to the rule, since I always get in trouble for being late and I love the so-called "Latin" style myself, I just spent a month in Latin countries http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif.

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Please have a look at my round-the-world travel blog and leave some comments - thanks :-).

First would all of you name callers and TOS violaters please get back on topic. If you don't want to discuss moderation then please allow us whiners to do so. I think that some moderation is necessary. I think that our moderators have a tough job. I think that less is good and that we should allow more debate on subjects than less. I agree with Punki that after awhile you learn most of the ins and outs of your FF programs and that some of us then get involved in the intricacies of our programs and travel situations. This is interesting for some of us and I feel that moderation as it is now is not allowing these debates. I know you can give me examples of both sides of when crazy threads were allowed to continue and seemingly innocent threads were closed or moved to obscurity. Which is my point. If members in various forums want extreme moderation then they could vote for extreme moderators and if they didn't they they could vote for less moderation or none at all. In the end the majority of FTers in each forum would be involved in the process. If the forum votes for moderators and has no applicants for the job then Randy or talkboard could appoint a moderator. Annual elections could provide input and balance from the members. Why other than promoting participation would this be a bad idea?

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dallasflyer

attorney28, I too am German, well more than half German. I grew up in the midwest in the 40s with grandparents who spoke German almost exclusively. There were extremely strong anti-German feelings in the US during the 40s, as you can well imagine, and my family fought very hard to communicate to their neighbors that the words "Nazi" and "German" were not synonymous, so for me, they are entirely separate concepts. If anyone is going to be offended here, it would seem more logical for them to be offended by those who assume that the words "Nazi" and "German" are indeed synonymous.

In our business (trade shows), we not only need to understand cultural differences (as best we can), but often help educate our clients so they will be prepared for those differences when they attend shows around the world. We also have vendors from around the world and need to educate our clients to their customs. For instance, one of our favorite vendors is in Italy so me must help our clients understand that if they want that product for their September show, they must order in June, because that Italiian plant will shut down for all of August, no matter how manny American $$$ we wave in front of them. We also have to advise our clients that if you make an appointment with a South American, and that person shows up late (even a half hour or more late) it is not an insult--it is a way of life.

FWIW, there are many aspects of German efficiency that I very much prefer, especially in business. For fun, the Latins rule. I must say, however, that Bernie's parties are entirely wonderful! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif Actually I have always had wonderful fun with Germans as well, but in general, find them more structured than most Latins.

I am sure attorney28 that there is a little bit of both in all of us, which is what makes us interesting.

Absolutely spot on here! When most of us think of somewhere fun to go on vacation, the natives probably speak a Romance language. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

How one perceives a culture is how one perceives it. Those perceptions may even be generally true to some degree. But that's why they are called "generalizations."

How you talk among friends/family or associates is one thing.

But this is a public forum. Open to the public. And no one knows all the readers. Because of that, one should be sensitive about the perceptions of others and using stereotypes to communicate.

Why mention "Germans" or "Swiss" or "British" or any other group to communicate your point? What's wrong with just writing, "If you're going to be really strict..." instead? Why mention "Nazi" when you could easily just write, "I think some moderators are too aggressive..."?

Is it really that hard to type a few extra letters? Is it really too hard think about what you are writing?

I'm all for slang and shortcuts of thought when I know who I'm talking to and how they will perceive it. But when I don't know who I'm talking to...I try to communicate in plain straight boring English. I try to use these things called "words" to communicate how I feel about things.

That's not being politically correct. That's just showing sensitivity and consideration for other's feelings in the Community. Because I know not everyone thinks the same way I do, and some may consider those stereotypes and gross generalizations as insulting and/or offensive.

Howard Stern and Don Imus and other columnists and opinionators are in that business. They can use stereotypes and gross generalizations all they want. That's what they do for a living. That's what they get paid for.

Not us. We gotta watch not what we write, but how we write it. Or be prepared to face the flack if you insist on doing otherwise and perhaps writing the way you "think it" totally un-self-censored and totally inconsiderate of others perception of it.

IMHO.

My opinion on the moderator's current performance? I don't think they're doing enough! Get back to work. What the heck do you think I'm paying you all for?! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 09-17-2003).]

What you say makes sense, PremEx, if you are referring to negative comments, but simply doesn't apply to general observations about cultural differences that have no negative or positive connotations.

I know some very relaxed Germans and some very precise Mexicans, but that doesn't alter the fact that in general most Germans (and things German) tend to be more orderly and precise than things Mexican--even their trains and gardens. Conversely, Mexicans and things Mexican, tend to be more relaxed than things German. It probably has something to do with their general climates and the Norther European vs. the Latin heritage. Neither way is any better nor worse than the other, they are just different.

By the same token I know some very casual Japanese, OK, I can't say I have personally have met a particulaly formal Australian. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif In general, however, most Japanese tend to be more formal, and most Austalians tend to be more casual, and that probably has a lot to do with thousands of years of culture vs. hundreds of years of culture. This is another observable instance of cultural differences that are neither good nor bad in and of themselve, just different.

I hope we never get to the point were we are unable to notice, mention or appreciate, obvious cultural differences in public. Sounds like a world franchises. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif Too Orwellian for me. :yikes:

I love the differences and even welcome different moderation styles. Some will annoy me and I have (and will continue to) say so if it seems appropriate (usually I will ignore it). I think some are wonderful and I have (and will continue to) say so. My opinion doesn't take up that much band width. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I'd be happy to return my monthly stipend for moderating, if you feel I've been slacking http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

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Punki, what isn't being addressed is how these generalized comments might be perceived by individuals within the group in question.

I'm only reading what you feel is some sort of harmless cultural classification. I don't think it often is.

My point is that with our own opinions firmly in place on these generalizations, that we may be blind to individuals within the group that may take offense to such generalizations.

And individuals read here.

Example: A reader might feel that your generalization of Mexicans as being "relaxed" is really just a euphemism for them being lazy. A classic example of a generalization gone sour in the mind of the reader.

Even some so-called positive generalizations are often considered very negative or insultive by the groups in question just for the act of the generalization itself. I recall one study back in the 70s where Peruvians where shown an educational film that was used in U.S. schools about Peru that started off, "The Peruvians are an industrious people..." They thought that was insultive not so much for the content. They didn't like their entire populace being simplified and lumped into one type of "people."

PremEx, the problem is that I started a very general non-intrusive thread titled "Moderation" to do just what you are suggesting. Let's start a thread and discuss the level of moderating that FTers want. It got 6 posts. Use the world "Nazi" and all of a sudden we get two pages and counting. The tragedy is that we need contriversial material today to get people's attention and response. Considerate discourse seems to be out of style. I favor less moderation and you favor more, I can respect that. What I would hope to see is about 500 FTers voice their opinions so we could really see how moderation is viewed by the FTers as a whole and if any changes in the process would benefit FT. No matter which side of the question you are on it would seem that you would want a open discussion or at least a chance for one. Instead we are here in Randy's forum where very little traffic is and the discussion is stifled.

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dallasflyer

While I disagree with your choice of the word "Nazi" in the thread title (though if we are being honest with ourselves here, most all of us have seen someone or other called "Nazi" at some point on FT or on other IBB's), I agree with the notion that people generally won't respond to simple thread titles as often as they will to threads with titles that are biting, provocative and controversial. It's the nature of the beast, perhaps.

That said, I think the challenge of coming up with thread titles is kind of fun! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Anonplz, I did not chose "Nazi" in my thread title, I got six posts. Someone else does and we are of to the races. That is a reality of this BB. I would just prefer a nice orderly debate of moderation. Of which I again think is to intrusive staying on topic.

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dallasflyer

I totally agree with you dallasflyer. I am going to switch over to your thread. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Australians has hundreds of year of CULTURE?

Never seen any evidence of that yet. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 09-18-2003).]

Oh, sorry. Right, it was Ken in Phx who used "Nazi" in his thread title.

A fairly common perception among the Australians of European ancestry whom I know, universally fine people whom I like a great deal, though it's not necessarily shared by those who were there to meet the First Fleet...

(said with a gentle smile; we're all a bit ethnocentric)