Trigger Happy Moderator?
 

Patron - You were very quick to close my other thread and I would like an explanation as to why.

Although I am looking to use bmi Miles I wish to fly LH as my Girlfriend will be on a paid Business Class ticket. I am keen to know what sort of capacity control or blackouts LH operate on JNB-FRA.

You should consider giving others the opportunity to respond with their views before you close threads quite so quickly.

I think, but am not sure, that your beef might be with bmi? I just booked award travel for January 2004 (MUC-JNB) in F using UA miles without a problem. There seemed to be a fair amount of space. I must say that it is always easier for me to get award space on LH using UA miles than it is to get Saver award space on UA using UA miles?

Gaza, I fully agree with you that it is a 100% LH questions as it´s not about bmi or any other airline. But if you look back on the LH forum you will see that we have the most moderated forum here http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Gaza asked if LH has blackout dates for FRA-JNB this is definately a question for this forum so it shouldn´t have been closed.

So I´ll try to answer it here for you.

LH has no blackout dates but FRA-JNB-FRA is always packed so it´s not easy to get an award ticket in the premium classes. Especially in the African summer there are many full-fare pax so they won´t release award tickets. I had the best luck when calling SEN service a couple of days before I wanted to fly.

Tim

[This message has been edited by Tim2008 (edited 05-06-2003).]

transpac - You make an interesting point. I am making the assumption that for a *A Award then all A* Carriers have access to the same inventory. This could be incorrect.

The specific date I am looking at is the 3rd January. I'm not sure if LH have an on-line tool for booking Reward flights but if they have I'd be interested to know if any M&M members can get Business or First on this date for JNB-FRA-EDI.

Thanks for your support and answer.

Looking at Galileo I see:-

JNB-FRA 3rd Jan - F2 A1 C9 D9 Z9 Y0 B0 MC HC

I had hoped that with so much availability in Business I stood a chance of getting an award but it was not to be. Looking at KL, BA and VS during this time paid availability is poor but there are occasional reward dates popping up.

Yesterday my Girlfriend managed to get a great deal EDI-FRA-CPT-(surface)JNB-FRA-EDI in Business for £1600 including taxes. I'm flying to CPT on the last Intercontinental leg of an oneworld Explorer ticket. If I cannot find a reward flight I will book at paid flight however, the cheapest one-way I can find is around £1800 (converted from ZAR), £200 more than my GF is paying for a round trip!

LH 573 JNB-FRA on 3 Jan 2004 has ~ 26 open C seats. It's best avoid the weekends if you can. I'd think that one should be able to get an award. Do you any status with LH? Can you ask someone else at bmi for additional help?

One can book award on-line at LH's website although I've never done it nor am I sure if I can exit out after I determine availability? I'll try mucking around with it later and report any findings.

I closed this thread and moved it to the BD forum, because this is the best place to discuss Diamond Club issues.
As the thread you opened stayed on the LH forum, everybody has the opportunity to respond by simple clicking on the link I provided and within seconds the thread in question will appear.

This thread is about moderation (and not about M&M); the best place to discuss such issues is the Only Randy Petersen forum and for housekeeping purposes I move it there.

[i]Patron
Talk Team Moderator

Randy

I would like your view on Patrons decision to close my orignal post on LH and move it to bmi.

I think its relevance to LH has been proved by the two responses.

In my opinion he is way too quick to close threads.

If we want to be VERY picky then we can say that my post was not strictly about M&M but it was relanted to LH and award inventory. However, if this test was applied throughout FT then 99.9% of threads would be closed.

I agree that patron is WAY too quick to close threads and move them elsewhere.

The fact remains that BMI points are redeemable on LH (along with the millions of other Evil Empire (aka Star Alliance) carriers.

Questions about redeeming BMI points on LH (or any of the other Evil Empire carriers) are not OFF-TOPIC in ANY of the appropriate forums.

the appropriate forums, AFAIAC, are BMI, LH (for these flights) and Evil Empire (AKA Star Alliance).

I note an increasing propensity for some moderators to decide that posts do not belong in "their forums" and to arbitrarily close the thread and/or move it elsewhere.

FT "used" to be a fun and informative place to be, now there a bunch of little "XXXXXX" running around. patron seems to be one of them.

Dave

Note: FlyerTalk edited a comment in this post which you can see from subsequent posts, was deemed by a variety of members to not be worthy on FlyerTalk. This member seemed to be so intent on critcizing a moderator that they were blind that their own member actions was less than acceptable. There is something to be said about glass houses and throwing stones......


[Note: This message has been edited by flyertalk]

I think you should consider editing your post. No matter how upset you are calling someone this doesn't seem appropriate on FT http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

(edited out quote of your post)


[This message has been edited by ScottC (edited 05-06-2003).]

No matter how much you disagree with someone's moderating there's is there really any merit in comparing them to XXXXXX?!? Get a [bad word] grip already.

[Edited to remove offensive quote.]

[This message has been edited by SMessier (edited 05-08-2003).]

thadocta, you should delete that part of your post, it is way out of line (and distracts from a valid criticism).

Well thadocta ... even in your own 'home' forum Qantas this is a present problem as you realise.

Even when the threads are 100% related to Qantas, but mention Patron's Star co-Moderator kawoh being stripped of his Qantas Platinum card and all his QF points for a silly scam, it is locked. However, threads that have nothing to do with Qantas, i.e. red wine discussion, run for 50 posts with the Moderator happily adding his views.

In that linked thread above it is mentioned I too posted a month or two back that the Star Alliance Forum seemed to have an awful lot of locked and closed threads for a "quiet" Forum. Patron and I had a few champagnes here over Easter, and totally by co-incidence I am sure, there has not been one locked since. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I too would hope that an edit might be made of your comments about a WW2 personality. Patron is from the same country of birth, (which you may not realise) and it is not a term to use about ANY FlyerTalker for any reason - IMO.

Moderators have a pretty thankless job, and whilst not all FT'ers will agree with all their calls, using terms like that is surely not necessary?

100% agree with OZ here, that was really, really inappropriate!


On the topic: Every moderator of course has his own way of work and of understanding the moderation guidelines. I would think that Patron is 100% within those guidelines. It is really a thankless job and I don't understand why sometimes there is such a hassle about the one or other closed/moved thread. Especially if you understand that Patron doesn't just close a thread but provides some information about why he did that and puting in a link to the new position of the thread so that it can easily be continued at its new home.

That is really much work and I don't know many other moderators that invest so much time and dedication into their work (me included...).

ralfkrippner
Community and KLM moderator

thadocta: (NNNN edited in by Rudi).

such namings discredit every argument you have posted - when a former german minister used that name in comparison with a current head of state, he lost his job (automn 2002).

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 05-06-2003).]

Dave,
the comparison that you make is absolutelky uncalled for - for crying out loud - this a talk board for FFP - how can you make such an comparison is absolutely beyond me. Even more so that whilst several people have asked you to edit your post - you have failed to do so. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Cheers

Thomas

Well excuse me for actually having a life - you know what that is, a job, volunteer fire-fighter training, that sort of thing.

Unfortunately, unlike some people, I am not at my computer 24 /7 able to change a post when others feel it is needed. I have just come back to this thread to see what has developed.

FWIW, no malice was intended. I was not aware that patron is Austrian. The term "little Hitler" is a mild insult used often in Australia, and is not considered overly offensive. I CAN however see why Europeans, and particularly Germans and Austrians, would find it to be EXREMELY offensive.

If I had known that patron was Austrian, I would have chosen another term.

I stand by my comments though about his actions.

Dave

Thadocta, somehow I JUST KNEW the "we Australians use it all the time" arguement would come up... This is at least the 5th time I've read this on FT, when will someone in Australia go on TV and explain that calling someone this is NOT FUNNY and is obviously only accepted by fellow Australians??? Whether Patron is European or not, it's simply not done and never ceases to amaze me that some people don't understand this. I don't think it's just Europeans that would find this offensive, I doubt you'll find anyone (except Australians then) that find it acceptable.

Nothing personal here, just my amazement at some cultural differences...

I agree, it is completely amazing that there are some vast cultural differences. Something I consider to be run-of-the-mill constitutes 8 or so replies and changes to posts by flyertalk (GOD, no less).

The fact remains though that there are things in each culture which are considered offensive in other cultures. The word "twat" was mentioned elsewhere, it is normal in England, but has connotations elsewhere which make it offensive.

Part of being on an international BB is making sure that your posts do not offend those unfamiliar with your culture, but the obverse to this is realising that what may be offensive in YOUR culture might be innocuous in the posters culture.

After all, if I have to consider that what I am posting might be offensive to others (and sometimes get it wrong) why can't readers also take into account that what is offensive might be inoffensive to others? It works both ways, you know.

Dave

Not just Europeans, but also perhaps even Americans and anyone else who appreciates what Hitler stood for and managed to "accomplish" during his years in power.

But hey, like you say that's how things are in Australia -- so it's cool.

As a student of history, I am more aware than most of what Hitler managed to "accomplish". I had a great-uncle perish in the holocaust, so I am more aware than most.

Indeed, it IS the way things are in Australia - we have a "larrikan streak", and part of it involves taking the p**s out of ourselves (and others).

You need to actually be an Aussie to see where I am coming from, and if you are an Aussie you would KNOW that it was not meant to be offensive.

Dave

[This message has been edited by thadocta (edited 05-07-2003).]

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif Thanks Dave, I think it's obvious you had not intended to be offensive.

John Cleese managed to make it very funny in Fawltey Towers. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Not being one, I can't know (or have known) this was the case. However, I am more than willing to take your word for it. Thanks for the explanation. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Last time I looked my Birth Certificate said Ballarat, Victoria, AUSTRALIA.

Not everyone saw the 'humour' in it possibly?


[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 05-07-2003).]

As I have said before, our only remedy is not to visit those fora where Patron is a moderator. The authorities back his approach 100% as is their right.

The fact that (in the opinion of some of us) a forum ceases to be enjoyable when a moderator pours over every word eagerly looking for an excuse to close the thread down means that, if we don't like it, we should just go elsewhere.

I just wish the fora concerned were of less mainstream interest.

Stephen

[This message has been edited by sjharte (edited 05-08-2003).]

i bet my last penny that none of the australiens i know ( quite a few) considers it funny to call somebody a mass murderer , not even a "little" one and what happened to your relative under the rule of that monster makes it even more difficult for me to believe you think this is funny.

i reckon what you owe here is an apology , not a search for a sort of explaination.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsdown.gif

Rightly or wrongly, the term "little H****r" is used quite often in English speaking countries to describe people who are very dicatorial in their behaviour. I can understand why people find it offensive and that is why I said to thadocta in an email I would not use that term here, as it is likely to be offensive to others.

Didn't say we thought it was funny, just that it was not overly offensive, and one which people do not consider to be insulting.

As for the apology, it will be a cold day in hell before that is forthcoming, since it isn't warranted.

Dave

to be honest , i did not expect you to be man enough do draw a straight line but just hide behind lukewarm excuses.

you are just sad.

To be honest, I do not apologise when it is not warranted.

I am not one of those people who apologises *JUST* because others say he should do so. You obviously are one of those people who says sorry when told to do so.

You are just sad.

Dave

Further to this, what I said was not offensive IN MY CULTURE. It is used quite often IN MY CULTURE.

This is an international BB, so I have recognised that what I said was inappropriate, and have withdrawn the remark. But as for an apology, what I said was inoffensive IN MY CULTURE, I still regard it as inoffensive IN MY CULTURE, and henceforth, I see no reason to apologise for something I said which is inoffensive over here. I have recognised that others may be offended by withdrawing the comment.

If we have to go down the apology route everytime someone is offended, we will be at it non-stop. since something which is inoffensive to one group is offensive to thers, and vice-versa.

My attitude is that we have to live with the fact that this is an international BB, and we have to respect the fact that different cultures have diferent values and prejudices. If we transgress, then the comments need to be withdrawn. But an apology? I don't think so. An apology is warranted when you regret what you said, which I don't. I wished I had worded it differently, but I certainly don't regret saying it. In MY culture (you all want me to make allowances for YOUR cultures, how about making some allowances for mine????) it is an extremely mild form of insult, nothing to get too upset over.

I will NOT apologise for something which is in MY culture nothing more than a storm in a tea-cup.

Dave

thank god that YOUR CULTURE is not even remotely close to the culture of the australian people i have had the pleasure to know well.

thadocta, you might be a cool guy in real life...

...but...back off slowly from the keyboard and take a deep breath...perhaps when you will have calmed down a bit and read this thread again, you will realize that in this thread, you have made an ... out of yourself in so many ways that it's not even funny - in your culture, in my culture, in whatever culture.

I admire Patron for doing the right thing and taking the high road on this one.

"Little Hitler" is an appropriate phrase to apply to people who advocate killing others (or in fact do it) because of their race or religion. In my view you could reasonably call Idi Amin or Saddam Hussein a "little Hitler."

"Little Hitler" is not an appropriate phrase to apply to people whose editing styles you don't like because it doesn't have anything to do with what you're trying to complain about. Try "little Frank Pixley" (one of Ambrose Bierce's editors) instead.

The reason that "little Hitler" is offensive to me is that it trivializes what the real Hitler did and wanted to do, which included wanting to gather up and kill Law Lord Sr.'s cousins. Save the big insults for big offenses.

sunseeker ..... please let me hasten to add I am a third generation Australian and I suggested an edit a lonnnnnnng time ago.

Please do NOT assume all Australians agree with the comments. Randy is the No #1 umpire here and he edited the comments out - as thadocta did not, and that is the umpire's final decision.

Let me make this pertinent comment. If a member of Parliament in this country - State of Federal or Senate called another Member - or any other person - a 'Little Xxxxxx' (for whatever reason) in the house they would be IMO forced to withdraw the comment by the Speaker .... and also forced most likely to apologise. AND suffer a good deal of poor media as a result.

I do not believe "OUR CULTURE" regards it as a polite term of phrase in public, especially when referring to a person born in the same country as Xxxxxx.

Australia has a very rich and cherished vocabulary of slang and "endearing terms". http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

In a pub, or over a few beers around a barbecue with friends - many phrases and terms are used with impunity and acceptance that may shock someone from Boston or Cambridge or Dusseldorf.

But they are * * NOT * * regarded as good form or polite to use in a newspaper for instance about a specific individual ... or in a "public gathering" - which indeed an International Bulletin Board like FlyerTalk surely is. Especially when we have a large number fo Germans and Austrians in our midst.

I guess an interesting test would be for thadocta to walk up to a group of NSW policemen and accuse one of them of being a "Little Xxxxxx". That might be a interesting test of whether it would acceptable and appreciated in THEIR CULTURE. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I have had the pleasure to meet both thadocta and Patron at different times recently over a few drinks. I do hope they shake hands and have a beer when Patron is next in town to hopefully amicably put this behind them. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

Totally off the mark. Particularly when as recently as this year we had a member of Parliament call the Prime Minister an "Arse Licker". No demand for an apology from the speaker, no demand from the public, little more than a few giggles from the media.

No wonder the likes of Bin Laden think Westerners are weak and soft - they need only to look at this forum and see all of the blouses getting their knickers in a knot over NOTHING.

Sticks and stones, boys and girls, or have they stopped teaching that in the new age of victimhood, where everyone is offended by everything, and entitled to compensation as a result?

Really, why should any of you give a rat's arse about being labelled a "Little Hitler"? I'm as Jewish as Moshe Dyan (and as one-eyed, I might ad), but don't bat an eyelid when I get labled a Nazi. The irony doesn't escape me, but I won't clutch my teddy and weep in bed all night over it.

Get some bloody perspective, people. If the Captain of your flight tomorrow announced that all 4 engines were out and you were all about to die, would thadocta's post on flyertalk be the last thing you considered in your final moments?

Not likely. Build a bridge, get over it.

Offense should be freely given to those who are weak and foolish enough to take it.

The remark about cops is completely off the mark too. Magistrates in NSW have thrown "Offensive Language" charges out of court when people have told the cops where to go in no uncertain terms. I'm sure that NSW Highway Patrol officers are called "Little Hitlers", and much worse, every day of the week. Big deal. If they can live with it, why can't you?

ANOTHER slow day at the office, OZSTAMPS?


[This message has been edited by shillard (edited 05-09-2003).]

I can't agree. Beeing called this way (and there can only be very few reason to do so rightfully, but certainly nothing that has to do with Patron) is VERY VERY offensive in my understanding and quite sure in Patron's, too.

The reasons for that are quite clear, I guess.

And as this is expressed here the absolute minimum that would have been expected is some kind of apology towards Patron.

That you are not able to do so disqualifies you in every view (at least in my opinion).

And yes, for me this IS a big issue and not just some minor case.