Call for TOS suspensions
 

I am unsure what caused it, possibly the downtime of the FT server, but this has become crazy!

Firstly, while some may not like Doc's many posts and smilies they are not required reading and can easily be skipped.

NJDavid has continued his thrashing of Doc and has violated the FT TOS with this text:

However, between doing that, he is a sniveling little man with a mean streak that far exceeds his size, and has caused unnecessary pain to one too many on this forum.

The thread the text lies within is IMO in very poor taste and not in the spirit of FT.

It is located here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/004327.html


I mean this with no bias. I don't appreciate the incredible lack of respect for another FT'er.

Dorian

While I have never met essxjay I have always enjoyed her posts and was glad when she became a moderator.

However, her snapfest on Doc today was quite extreme IMO and a clear violation of FT TOS:

doc = the ultimate troll.

Knock it off, doc! FT'ers have access to newspapers, offline as well as online. We don't need you to republish info from other sources.

You are an unbelievable jerk!

The post is in this thread: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/004374.html

No, I am not the some FT TOS enforcer, I just don't like seeing good people get slandered on FT.

Maybe essxjay doesn't want to be a moderator any more? Dunno?


Dorian

Well, the problem is that with doc's ubiquity, they can't "easily be skipped". When you click on a thread that he's posted in, they come up whether one wants them to or not.

Broken record time: Can't we puh-leaz have a filter capability? Then those who want to enjoy the doc-fest can continue to do so, while the others won't have to.

IMHO calling for time-outs, resignations etc... is just something that adds fuel to the fires, Let us please allow those who can make the choice come to their own conclusion, if someone feels the need to "call" for action may I suggest doing so in a private email to Randy?

These posts are just a new breeding ground for even more flames http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif Scott http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

From the same thread Dorian referenced above, with the referenced portion now in context:

Nothing would make me happier than to never post such words again. However in response to posts where I have been called names, harassed, where the same hurtful comments have been posted in more than 10 threads simultaneously, and - in an atsmophere where such behavior is not subject to being held to the stated TOS of this forum, one such as myself has no choice but to take defense ito one's own's hands.

No one wins a flame war. But until we have official action against the trolls and flamers, posting a single response thread here to keep the negative reply posts to one place in omni, away from the serious discussions that this troll pervades seemed to be the prudent step to defending myself. I repeat, all of the comments defending myself from attacks are in one single thread in the Omni forum. I will not muck-up the rest of this board with anything more thn a link to this Omni thread. I will not take the Troll-bait to get in to replying to personal insults during meaningful discussions. I will only post a link referring to a place where we can "step outside" and continue the off-topic discussion. Even that is not respected by some members, as identical flaming posts were placed in nearly 20 threads yesterday.

I stand by these actions, and stand fully ready to be judged - as long as that judging is done equally amongst all the members of this community, and all those who have violated the TOS are suspended. This includes anyone from the troll in question, to members of the Talkboard who have had such behaviors documented. Equal justice for all, or just more of the same.


********************************************

Thanks to those of you who've sent me e-mails of support. I appreciate the vote of confidence.

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-25-2002).]

I've kept hoping and hoping that all of this would die down and go away. I will not publicly "take sides", and at this point there is no correct side - all parties are now contributing to an atmosphere that is seriously impacting the fun of being here. The TOS violations throughout this are obvious and abundant - and call for some kind of action. But short of that, I would hope all parties recognize there is no value here in having the last word and will voluntarily cease posting for a while.

---

No comment, except to perhaps ever so "politely" remark that the air must indeed be quite thin way up there on the "high road!" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Have a great day All! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Agree completely. Let me put the lot of them in the bit bucket so I never have to think of them again.

That's what will make FT more enjoyable for me!

[This message has been edited by bollar (edited 02-25-2002).]

I agree. Until we all quit trying to mold FlyerTalk into what we think it should be, these petty flame wars will continue... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Must be spring in the air.
Last month it was snowing in Petaluma but this weekend (1) my wife cut some flowers from the garden (2) I did my first bbq of the year (3) and the first ft flame war of the season began.
Yep 3 sure signs that winter is over.

violations of the tos are happening all over the forums by not only these individuals but many others. At what point does one say you have crossed the indistinct line of a tos violation. And it is really an indistict line.
For some a violation is only when one has made belittling remarks of another.
Yet I can find that it is as grievous that a poster goes off topic on a thread. This may be one of the most time-consuming of all events that takes place on ft as one does not know whether to read a thread as you just may find a gem of wisdom tucked in among the muck or just as likely one begins reading a useful thread and is waylaid by the babel. After all how many times does one have to post their opinion, once, twice, fifty times?
Lastly the breach of tos that I find most non-compliant is those who commit the act of posting words that the vulgarity filter has removed in such a manner that the filter is unable to recognize the word yet is clear to everyone else. Perhaps I find this most aggravating because it is almost always done by the whiners & complainers whom I find rarely if ever add any useful information to ft.
Yes a personal filter to eliminate certain posters would work well for some but I would be afraid that I might miss the gem among the babel. I have always believed that one can learn a lot from one who does it right and even more from those who do it wrong.
Now I am going to post my opinion this one time and one time only. Zee Eee are Oh • ZERO tolerance for offenders of the tos.
No ifs, ands or buts).

[This message has been edited by magic111 (edited 02-25-2002).]

The intent of this thread was to bring specific attention to the language used in slamming Doc. IMO, that is the serious TOS violation. If something is not done regarding the language used this place is going to become a madhouse.

We have been instructed in the past to post here and email Randy, both of which have been done.

Dorian

Nice of you to bring up TOS violations, Dorian, I found something interesting too:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000030.html

[This message has been edited by Goldlust (edited 02-25-2002).]

A madhouse in the sense that someone who calls an FT'er a "cancer" is elected to the Talkboard, and another one who calls someone "An Ugly American" is appointed to the Talkboard, and neither faced or faces a day of sanctions?

My, Dorian, what madhouse worse than than that could you envision? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

(And please tell the kind folks in the studio audience which one of the two you were.)



[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-25-2002).]

You are grasping at straws guys.

Goldlust...sorry that is not a TOS as the word is not considered an expletive by major dictionaries. However, other words are labelled as 'vulgar slang' by major dictionaries.

NJDavid...can you please tell us which FT'er I was referring to? (Ya, that is what I thought).

The madhouse I refer to is a complete free-for-all on bashing other FT'ers...and you, NJDavid are in serious violation of just this.

Dorian


(spelling)

[This message has been edited by Dorian (edited 02-25-2002).]

Isn't it always the case that the people who do the most bashing and are the least respectful of others complain the most when it is done to them.

Dorian, I say to you as I said before, you want me out the door for negative comments in questionable taste, you and the rest of the offenders come with me and I'll lead the way. Your form of "selective censorship" where friends can get away with murder but no one else is allowed (and heaven forbid you even glance in a mirror) is appalling and morally reprenhensible.

One board, one set of rules for all.

I have received more than 25 messages from other members of this community yesterday and today, thanking me for taking a stand that they are afraid to attach their name to, for fear of the kind of repraisals I have suffered here. That is a terrible shame.

---

Is Dorian to be somehow held responsible for the election of "cigarman?"

You're mad at everyone - those who voted and those who didn't, I guess?

Is Dorian not "absent" now from the TalkBoard, since he'd decided to tender his resignation?

To this casual observer, it seems that your "beef" is more rightfully to be placed against Randy and his "poor" judgement, no? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

---

---

Goldlust - C'mon! Are you actually saying that you disagree with the point Dorian posted above about the two individuals being in violation of the TOS?

I surely hope not!

PLEASE be kind enough to clarify this for everyone, thanks! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Do you think that there is any doubt at all about this whatsoever?

BTW, Dorian, IMHO, seems to feel that one should always be completely honest and outspoken (perhaps even to a fault in the minds of some) and yet always retain a modicum of respect for the opposing view and particularly the folks that hold such views.

In contrast, there are others who willfully, regularly "flame" and literally show no respect for opposing views nor the people expressing them. They truly feel "justified" making these repeated TOS violations on the basis that they simply "know" what is "right" and in the best interests of FT and all FT'ers - and so it is not a flame you see! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

A simple corollary here is:

If you disagree with such a person or quote their own words back to them, then you are "flaming" them! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

It's very simple really! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Check out this thread for an explanation, particularly on what a "flame" actually is:

---

"...NJDavid quote: Originally posted by PG
Correct me if I am wrong, but I read the thread carefully and couldn't find anything that was off-topic or a personal attack.

Perhaps you missed this part:

quote: NJDavid
...or simply proof that you will post an opposite opinion from me just to be able to oppose me personally...

PG

ok so why lump in the off-topic or personal attack bit?

BTW - that "simply proof" bit is a bit impossible to prove or disprove one way or the other.

NJDavid

All three categories are personal attacks. Some are just better hidden than others.

PG

quote: Originally posted by NJDavid:

All three categories are personal attacks. Some are just better hidden than others.

That seems to be upping the ante. Shouldn't we be careful about calling anything (especially strong dissenting opinons) "a personal attack".

NJDavid

Careful, yes... Ignore patterns of behavior, no.

ExpoTrac

Forgive me NJDavid if you consider this a personal attack, but it seems that this topic is off-topic, if you will, and not what this board is for. I can't believe that there are that many FT posters out to get you! I think this thread should be locked by the Moderator..."

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/004327.html

---

I hope the explanation provided in response to PG's questions clarifies matters sufficiently for everyone!

NJDavid,

Unfortunately I have no idea what you are talking about.

To my knowledge I have not violated FT TOS except possibly in the most extreme of interpretations.

You, NJDavid, have violated the FT TOS.

Dorian

Isn't it ironic that yesterday you were railing against the anonymous e-mail holders, yet today those anonymous e-mail holders are your strongest defense.

I do not know for sure, but it would surely seem to be so, based upon your behavior here on FT, no? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

--

Well, there's absolutely no question that your taste is bad... it's VERY bad! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

While I speak not for Dorian, nor anyone else, but IMHO, obtaining some substantial improvement in your "taste," or the actual lack thereof up 'til now, is what he and others are perhaps very likely are after!

--

You mean like you and "Ess" and how you have attempted to rationalize her making such profoundly tastless "flaming" posts in violation of the TOS?

Yeah, that IS reprehensible for sure. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Spot on! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Uh... that's actually HIS point I believe! EVERYBODY including YOU and your "friends."

--

...I have received more than 25 messages from other members of this community yesterday and today, thanking me for taking a stand that they are afraid to attach their name to, for fear of the kind of repraisals I have suffered here. That is a terrible shame.[/QUOTE]

Wow! The "Silent Majority" lives on it would seem. And here I'd thought that this concept had actually gone out with the old Nixon administration long ago! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

It is indeed a real shame if any of these people have actually shown any kind of support or thanks to or for you in "flaming" other FT'ers! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

FT is not a perfect place. It's just like the rest of the world in that respect! Yet, together we can ALL work to make it better IF we are willing! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The more things change....

Hey, can I buy anyone here a drink???? http://photos.yahoo.com/mattwald

Oh, and...
What's the difference between a condom and a cokpit?

You can only fit one di**head into a condom...

[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 02-25-2002).]

in that vein

whatever happened to the good old days where the worst experience that an FT'er could have was to be beat up by apack of ruffians outside a bar?

They are alive and well.

Click here again: http://photos.yahoo.com/mattwald

And pay no attention to either the man behind the curtain NOR any of the posts above...

They ARE alive and well!!

In fact, rumor has it you can even get kidnapped at the Red Carpet Club at IAD, booked with no luggage into seat 1-A on a plane bound for New Orleans, and find yourself on Bourbon Street until the wee hours of the morning...

That sounds like a hell of a lot more fun than *****ing and moaning about who said what to whom in this that and the other FT forums...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif



[This message has been edited by geo1004 (edited 02-25-2002).]

---

An excellent point from a seemingly very wise individual, IMHO, and I share much agreement with it! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I have not taken a stand as to whether the attacks Dorian brought up were in violation (however, doc, if you say they are I trust that they are; your word is all I need on that).

What I did find amazing was the fact that the individual Dorian was the one to bring up TOS violations. Considering that he has posted messages applauding personal attacks on my person, I feel an urge to quote Cicero; "Quis tulerit Grachos de seditione querentes." Or even better, let me quote Joseph Welch, special counsel in the 1954 Army-McCarthy hearings (quote was used in wrong context by Eugene recently, but now I am using it right): "Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you no sense of decency?"

Sad, really, that people with 2000+ posts (like Dorian and Shareholder) can violate the TOS and attack people with impunity. I gues decency is not a city in Canada.

The sad thing, apart from the lives of those mentioned indiviuals, is that nothing is being done about it.

Obviously those honorable people (a group, which I with this message in this context can no longer claim to be a part of) who do not attack back like kids, are the people who are really suffering, they, the honorable ones, are the true victims. Because of their adult behaviour (something found lacking amongst a great number of people here) those all time low personal attack threads - like the one started in the TalkBoard issues forum by Shareholder - are left standing with insults.

Of course, the real insult, is the fact that when sensible people read those attacks, they will of course reach the conclusion that the attackers obviously need treatment - I know that, but the little pleasure of having that knowledge is not enough for me.

True action must be taken, or the low lives will continue to flourish here.

PS: Dorian: a personal attack does not require the use of certain words, the fact that mallice on the culprit's (your) part is involved will suffice.




[This message has been edited by Goldlust (edited 02-25-2002).]

Whew, leave for a few hours (to actually live a normal life) and the weeds overtake the walls on this topic.

In order:

Doc, you are hopeless. I have no doubt you will find paragraph upon paragraph to post in response to that one sentence. (I'm not sure if it's because you actually believe that you are always the victim, or because you just like to see your own words, but then again I don't know if you know, so whatever.)...Go to town.

Dorian, you pair yourself with Doc as in the "I can never be wrong" twins. I guess it's just because you "just say what's on your mind" as "your friends know that's the kind of person you are". You and I know the truth. That's all I need to feel justified.

PG: I find your arguments constantly well thought out, but always in opposition to me, and I haven't a clue why. Take here, for example, I mention people who have sent me e-mails in support, and you somehow equate that with people who do not list an e-mail in their on-line profile and my comments about that years ago. Perhaps this is the best example we have of you first deciding to be in opposition to me, then looking for some reason for it. Whatever.

Koko, Geo, all my old pals - sorry, I've never been the kind to find dead livers, slurred speech, drooling, waking up in strange places, missing committments, lying, etc "fun". Hey, the next round's on me, tomorrow you won't remember what you took seriuously today anyway - if anything.

And after all is said here on this thread, nothing is done. And that's the saddest part of all.

--

So you do not wish then to indulge the "hopeless" and specifically address the various concerns raised?

BTW, who is the victim here?

Noting your chagrin regarding nothing being done, I wonder what is it that you do expect to accomplish, if anything?

Just asking! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I'm going to suggest to Randy a special board for the key players involved in the above diatribe. This way none of us will have to read it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

And for the record, as a native Broolynite, I don't enjoy having my intelligence insulted by the 'overstatements' I've read above.

Maybe those 25 people can personally e mail me to find out what they are.

NJDavid,

I don't know what you mean by saying "you and I know the truth"...sorry.

Is it meant to be some type of argument or simply trying to divert attention from your TOS violation?

You are correct however in saying it is sad that nothing has been done as far as suspending both you and essxjay for your TOS violations.

Dorian

Oops -- excuse me, I thought this was a group of people who like to talk about frequent flyer programs. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

"Whatever" is right.

FWIW I don't always disagree with you.

I was pointing out that in your comments a few days ago (and not years ago), Feb 20 2002:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000660.html
you were against anonymous e-mail accounts with no verification, yet now as proof you are giving us nothing more than anonymous e-mails (with no verifications for us).

"Proof" of what. I have nothing to prove.

...sigh

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000675.html

Ok so proof was a bad word, but whatever it was argument/defense/whatever was provided by you, even though the concept of anonymous/unverified emails was derided by you a few days ago. You can't have it both ways - by bashing anonymous/unverified emails and then a few days later providing anonymous/unverified mails as a support for yourself.

The URL you list is very interesting, since it refers to you and me. Instead of quoting the URL, might you reflect on your own role in this mess?

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 02-26-2002).]

Ah, finally an issue of SUBSTANCE on which intelligent people can disagree.

Because it comes down to the very core of what each of us percieves flyertalk to be. And to me, after the first year or so on Flyertalk, I became pretty much as knowledgable about VFFing as I'm going to be. So why to stay? Well, one to keep up with changes, offers and promotions of the various programs.

But more then that. To meet interesting and new people who happen to share a common interest and/or lifestyle. Life on the road can be lonely. Flyertalk provides relief from that lonliness both on the internet and in person when flyertalkers gather or just hook up while on the road.

I've met dozens of flyetalkers for lunch, dinner and, yes, even drinks http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif when I'm in situations that I'd otherwise be watching Spanktravision or getting sloshed alone at a hotel bar.

That's the core of FT to me. The exchange of (sometimes) intelligent opinions and, frankly, a passtime are also fairly important to me, but the people are the core.

My idea of fun: The smile on Punki's face when I surprise her at a gate at IAD. My first In and Out burger with Onedog on a SFH delay at LAX. Walking (late as usual) into the PiP dinner. Sitting next to SXJ SFO-LHR. Being denied entrance into nearly every single bar in Portland. Randomly running into iluv2fly CDG-ORD. Eating ants at the Burbank airport. Watching a huge tray of drinks fly across the room at an LA restaruant. Kidnapping Geo at the IAD RCC for a night in MSY.

Not my idea of fun: The mental m*sturbation that goes on here about who has insulted whom, who violated TOS, etc.

Get it through your heads: RANDY DOESNT CARE UNLESS ITS CRUDE, BLATANT AND OBVIOUS INSULTS. Given that fact, everyone has two choices: stay or leave. If once chooses to stay, one can choose to be civil or not. When one is not civil, whether in "offense" or "defense" it shows. And it serves only to diminish others' opinion of that person and diminishes the 'community' generally.

So call me a drunk, a cad, a liar. They are all true. But me, I like my idea of fun.

I like your idea of fun, too. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I appreciate your attitude Matt. Your wish to gain what it is that you want out of FT is admirable. You go about it in a way that does not try to deprive others of what they want.

Others here do not share your luck. Many here want to have intelligent discussions about miles and points. To learn something about a program that maybe we didn't know. To share a compliment or a gripe with others to see if anyone feels the same way. Many of us also have lives - families, jobs, interests. We would like to get what we want out of this site, give a little back, and go about our merry way.

What should these people do if someone's actions directly prevent that as assuredly as if I prevented you from meeting people and having the fun you wanted?

What if every thread contained so much trivia that it became impossible to separate it out from facts from actual flyers? What if every forum contained post after post of unrelated links? What if someone came along and really threatened this idea of fun and enjoyment? What would one do?

In a civilized world, one would say "excuse me friend, but could you cut it out, that's getting annoying. It's preventing me from getting the enjoyment of this experience I had before you came along."

Now, in a civilized world the response would be "I'm sorry, that was not my intent. Can we forge a compromise." That did not happen here. What we got was "I have my rights!!!" and an all out war specifically intended to defend the lack of civility.

As in any war, you have sides, skirmishes, conflicts, ebbs and flows of battle and no winner at all. That is a flame war, caused by a troll by any and every internet definition anyone can find.

Don't take my word for it - look it up...do a Google search or search on Hotbot or Yahoo. What does a troll do on a BBS or Usenet?

1)Post the same thing in multiple places.
2)Post trivial or marginally related items to the topics at hand.
3)Claim expertise in areas where one has no experience.
4)Post meaningless items (like smileys) with deliberate frequency.
5)If anyone objects, claim to be the injured party and start at #1 again.


I'm glad none of this behavior prevents you from enjoying Flyertalk. It certainly prevents some others from enjoying it. And just as I would defend your rights to get from it what you wish, I would expect you to do the same for the next guy.

But that brings up the "its not hurting me so why bother" examples I've drawn to past cultural and historical examples.

And those bring up the IJAFIBB comments from you.

So let's agree to end it here, with you getting everything you need, and not caring that others don't have the same chance.

If I stopped getting what I wanted/needed from FT, I would attempt to change FT back into what I wanted. If that (probably honestly half-hearted) effort failed, I would leave and never look back. It's a hard-learned lesson. But life is just too short.

I understand your vision of what you'd like FT to be. Frankly, I agree with much of that vision. Unfortunately, Randy doesn't agree. I appreciated your efforts to make something out of that vision. They did make sense to me. That venture still exists if stricter TOS adherence and moderation is your cup of tea, whether it is as strict as you would like or not. The real lesson of that venture would seem to me to be that a dictatorship is the only way to truely achive your vision. If you set one up, I'll come and play to the extent that I get what I want out of it.

But at this point, FT is what it is. It ain't changing. IMHO, the whole concept of the FT Board was/is a farce. But so what. Its no skin off my back. If I dont like it, I am free to leave.

You cant get water from a rock and you certainly cant expect civility or restraint on FT. So why continue to seek it out? Take the good things. Leave the bad. Enjoy life and enjoy FT for what it is. Have the serenty to accept that which you cannot change. Neither you nor Dorian nor Doc nor anyone else are the Nazis nor are any of you the Jews, Catholics, Gays and Gypsies. There is no holocaust here. Just a typical internet bulliten board more or less free for all. You cant go to the circus and expect an opera!

It's just a silly little internet bulliten board.

And to all of you, Dave, Doc, Dorian, all of you, let me assure you, I mean this all with the utmost respect to each of you as individuals and human beings.

Thanks for considering my point of view.

FWIW - I think that Randy did it the correct way. And I agree with geo1004 who said something to the effect that FT would be fine if we didn't want to force it to be what we want it to be.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 02-26-2002).]

Bottom line for us all: FT belongs to Randy. Deal with it.

What he decides to do with it is his choice and his choice alone. We can email, write letters, send postcards, elect a Board, decry the vote for the Board unfair, declare the Board doesn't represent us, send smoke signals, flame on, flame off, launch carrier pidgeons....whatever... But at the end of the day, what Randy says or does is the final word.

And what if what Randy says doesn't apeal to us? Or, better yet, what if Randy decides to do something today that contradicts what he said or did yesterday? Well, that's just the way it goes.

We can scream at the top of our lungs from the highest mountain what we would like FT to be. Just remember that Randy is under no obligation to listen. Nor are we in any position to demand.

Complaining that "others" are ruining the FT fun and demanding action from Randy is simply preposterous! Click the "x" in the upper right corner and be done with it. Life is too short and I'm going to bet Randy has better things to do with his time than worry about who is unhappy today on FlyerTalk. That's a lesson better learned sooner rather than later.

We all want to have intelligent discussions about miles and points and travel. That's why we were initially drawn to FT. But, there no way possible for anyone to ruin FT. They may change it into something that you or I don't like as much as we did before but quite frankly, that's tough... deal with it.

How many times must we keep ordering something that is not on the menu before we get it through our heads that we aren't going to get that meal???? How many times must we keep crying that FT is not exactly what we want it to be and therefor action MUST be taken???

Silly... just silly. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

giometro 10-04,

ded yu kawl arturo en yu las sintinse?

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Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.