No More Elite Security Lines
 

I'm double posting this here to elicit some help from Randy. A thread in Buzz addresses this topic.

Us FTers, IMHO, need to complain loudly, persistently, and to whomever will listen, with Randy's help I believe, to get this illogical and really unacceptable policy reversed. The government has no authority really to control the screeing lines any more than they can say that because the FAA inspects planes that there can be no difference in the seating or the price one pays inside the metal. They are paid to screen everyone the same who comes through, and that's it.

No problem in Europe getting special lines but screened by the government. There is no basis here either for doing so really except some bureaucrat who wants to do something to show he's important.

Randy?

I hear you but you will probably be dissapointed to learn that I don't favor special lines for elite flyers. I fly with the best of them and have more miles than i care to count sometime, but I'm also a taxpayer and now that the Feds have taken over the responsibility, don't think it right for taxpayer dollars to support special lines. Why? Honestly, it has more to do with my pragmatic understanding of the infrastructure that airports are working with today. I really haven't found the lines to be of any concern to me now that things aren't as screwed up as they initially were, and I just went in and out of Salt Lake City which arguably has the most attention for this right now because of the Olympics. Airports are public facilities to my understanding and public places really can't cater to private interests. Airlines can and do what they want for their best customers, but airports have all customers in mind when they try and offer services.

So, I'll take the heat on this one but at least I'm not changing my stripes. I was quoted over 2 months ago as predicting that the government would take this action and was fine with it. I can't and won't change my mind now that it is here. Sorry. Now, you can start tossing the tomatoes......

Fair is fair then. Airline crew should not be allowed to go to the front of the line.

I agree. If we have to calculate 2 extra hours to get to work when flying, so should they.

I'd go one step further as well. Airlines should be prohibited from selling connecting tickets that require a second security screening unless they have a 2 hour connection. Continental (the one I'm familiar with, though I'm sure there are plenty of other examples) is selling a ticket that goes EWR-CMH-LAS. With the EWR-CMH leg a CO express flight landing in terminal A and a CMH-EWR flight that's a codeshare on HP departing from terminal B. They allot 45 minutes for the connection, which would be a push if there was no additional security screening.

If no provision is to be made for special circumstances (elites, connecting passengers, etc.) then these types of connections should be prevented as well.

I don't find the argument convincing that government shouldn't acknowledge private interests.

All sorts of public facilities cater to certain groups and those who pay more. Public stadiums have special entrances for season pass and skybox holders, tollways have special lanes for pass holders, national museums have high-level-members-only benefits, etc. All of these are as equal access as elite ff programs. Simply pay for whatever membership, special ticket/seat, or the requisite number of miles to get the benefit.

While the concept of treating everyone the same has a certain poetic elegance, it's not as if dropping elite security lines will suddenly open up air travel to a new strata of society heretofore denied the benefits.

Elite FF's are the security fee's best customers just like they are the airlines, and this isn't an unreasonable benefit.

We so regularly ask our government to act more the private sector, why would we want to take this important part of the economy and make it run more like the DMV?

Interesting how the gvt is so very concerned about Elite lines, while is still see Argenbright being in business.

At LHR, premium pax (even those on upgrades) pay a lot higher taxes on tickets - that helps to justify it.

Personally, I think it's a waste of time to lobby the government into setting up "elite" lines. It would probably only be a matter of time before the ACLU brought up and won a lawsuit for this kind of discrimination, unless everyone was allowed the option to use the line if they paid an extra fee. That's the only way this would probably be legally viable - for an extra $10 per trip, anyone can use the shorter line, not Pres. Bush saying "well, Continental airlines has told us that John Smith is a really good guy, so he'll get the VIP treatment, even though he's paying the same $2.50 per segment fee everyone else is."


What we should be doing is lobbying the government to make the lines 10 minutes or less, like Minetta promissed. It won't do much to help FFers' egos, but it would help ensure that everyone gets through quickly, regardless of FF status. (Which is also helpful to us, when we fly airlines we don't have elite status on.)

d

Doppy, am I reading that you just stated that premium flyers in FRA pay higher taxes on their tickets and this helps pay for the elite security lines. This seems to contradict what you posted in the BUZZ.

Randy: If you argue that airports are public places, then where do you stand on the INPASS program? Everyone pays the same INS fee but the frequent business traveler has the option to get the INPASS card and bypass the long passport inspection Ques.

The real problem that I see with the elimination of the express lines is that it may well lead to some very serious financial problems for some of the airlines.

Here in the Northwest, for instance, we run almost 100 shuttle flights per day between SEA and PDX alone, not to mention all of the other commuter destinations in our area. SEA/PDX is a 2.5 hour drive, but a lot of people love to fly it, if they can cut the commute time to 45 minutes. Throw an extra hour or two on top to allow for security on either end and the airlines can kiss those routes goodbye.

I am sure there are similar circumstances all over the USA and this decision on the part of the FAA may well spell financial disaster for some airlines, which, IMHO, would be a very sad thing.

Additionally, I take lots of discretionary trips for both business and pleasure. These are often very quick turn around events--SEA/SFO, SEA/LAX, or SEA/LAS in a day to pop into a show, meet with a client, go out to dinner with friends, etc., etc., etc.

If I am looking at two hour security lines on either end, those trips will go away as well. The airlines and the government must work together to do the very best they can to encourage the frequent flyer, because this is where the bulk of the airline revenue originates.

I truly believe that those of us who feel strongly about this issue should organize and lobby the FAA for the reinstatement of these express lines.

If the argument is that because the screening is being done w/ federal tax funds, and therefore can't accomodate nor support elitism, then it would seem that what we need for a convincing case is precedence. Can anyone think of another tax-based service where some form of elite accomodation is allowed? What about the special parking lot for Congressmen at National? Is that a stretch? (I envision them arguing it's maintained for efficient security monitoring).

Randy, often times an elected official will change their opinion on a issue that they oppose when the vast majority of the voters that they represent feel strongly in favor of it. You are the face that everyone at FT puts on the body of all frequent flyers. This issue isn't about capital punishment or abortion, it's about economics and supporting the very existence of our airlines.

I respect your opinion, and you are entitled to it. However you have to admit, that you have become the voice of all frequent flyers and as such, it is your duty to speak out on our behalf. If you were to take a survey similar to the ones that are done for the online version of your magazine, I predict that the outcome would be overwhelming in favor of elite lines at the airports.

Therefore I urge you to support us on this issue. In war, you can be a conscientious objector and still be at the front line. You don't have to carry a weapon, just tend to the wounded. In this case, the wounded will be us the frequent flyers, and every airline that will see a drastic drop in revenue as we cut back in our flying. I was planning to take the shuttle LGA-BOS for a weekend, and now I plan to drive. This type of thinking will be repeated by most of us at FT.

WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT!

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My 35-post self seconds that motion enthusiastically!

Randy
I invite you to move to ATL and try and see what the am Mon. lines are like. Basing your decision on your personal experience is fine. It's your personal opinion. But,when asked by reporters re. this,please remember that you are asked as a rep of us all.
Using your argument,why have early boarding?Shouldn't all be treated the same?
Bottom line,IMHO,we will fly less. Airlines will have a harder time recovering.

Randy: What good is early boarding if you are still stuck in the security line?

How about highway tollbooths which have reserved lanes for people who sign up to use the radio-frequency auto-billing devices?

That's the same as an elite line. You pay extra in order to get through the same checkpoint more expeditiously. It's open to the public in the sense that everyone could choose to pay more in order to get into that line.

All citizens can use the elite lines if they fly enough or pay enough. That's equal opportunity.

My primary concerns are economic. This decision could easily cripple my hometown airlines, Alaska and Horizon, which rely heavily on their commuter routes. If we lose the express lines, we will soon lose most of the 100 or so flights a day that operate between SEA/PDX. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Those of you who share this concern please call the FAA Security Hotline at 866-289-9673 and voice your opinion and encourage all your friends to do so as well.

The real issue here is not about the "elite" status, but instead about the business of keeping the airlines in business and making it as easy as possible for the frequent business flyer to stay in the air.

p.s. I know that I have posted this number several places, and will continue to do so. This issue is crucial to all of us--even the infrequent flyer will suffer if the airlines suffer even more.

Randy, this decision will kill the shuttle business. Why would I want to wait on 2 hour lines when I can drive to my destination in the comfort of my car for far less money? The shuttle flights are a major source of revenue for the airlines. This decision will be a major setback financially for the airlines that are still trying to get back to normal operations.

Why? Because hopefully this change is something for the better. The system needs to be fixed. Not just for greedy FF who think they deserve quicker security then those who may be paying even more then them for the flight.

How about fixing the entire system and treat everyone fairly until they fall into the graces of travel after security? How about INSPASS cards or Retna scan lines.

I am a DL PM on DL & CO, what happens when I fly US? We should all wait in the same line and the long should not be long. Fix the problem. Let our top leaders go through a quick line and we all suffer. All for one or none at all when it comes to distributing my secuirty fee.

If you think the elite lines should be shut down becuase it does not treat everyone the same, then you should also agree that the INPASS system should be shut down for the same reasons.

I too don't favor separate lines for elites.

Incidentally some of the some worst lines I've faced were in Europe. And while there were separate lines for coach and business/first, there were no separate lines for elites (in Amsterdam security check at gate for connecting flight) - and all of that delay was for asking the standard predictable set of questions which terrorists can easily bypass.

The system must be fixed and the delays must be addressed, but separate lines is not the solution.

Why? If INSPASS is open to everyone and allowed for intra US travel, it would not discriminate against anyone.

Well, I did call the number provided to express my opinion on the matter. However, I told the friendly woman at the TSA that I was in favor of the decision, hoping that they would instead fix the problem of excessively long lines.

Am I the only one who finds it highly ironic that some of the most active members of FT, a board that exists in large part to maximize FF elite benefits while minimizing the cost of the status, are now raising the familiar "we provide the most revenue to the airlines so we should be allowed to skip the line."

If lines stay at 2 hours (or even 1 hour) in some airports, then few people will want to fly period, and commuter flights will be only one of many casualties. It is both ridiculous (and in many cases pointless) to have the lines now present at many US airports. However, advocating special lines for a few while leaving the "proletariat" to wait for 2 hours is not, imo, the solution. Presumably, hiring and staffing levels need to be adjusted so that such lines are a thing of the past. (Same goes for Y check-in lines at the airline counters, fwiw).

If one is going to use the "I pay the mostest so I should wait the leastest" argument, then I would propose that such lines be created for passengers flying on full fare F/C and some expensive Y fares. Prices for these tickets can include additional security fees for that purpose. Those paying bottom basement economy fares, using miles/elite status/etc... to upgrade should wait in the regular line, since the economic contribution test is not met.

PS: According to the woman I spoke to at the TSA, I was the first person to express support for the new rule. So flame away folks.

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Got to 1000 posts, one meaningless post at a time.

I sincerely hope, SMeisser that we are sophisticated, and intelligent enough that can disagree, even strongly disagree from time to time, without ever sinking to the depth where we would resort to such undignified behavior as insulting or flaming one another. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif I, as a matter of fact, disagree with Hunki and my beloved older brother Rudi all the time and that in no way whatsoever distracts from my love or admiration for either of them.

In this instance, my concerns are far more economic than status based. While I wholeheartedly agree that security lines should be shortened for all passengers, I also know that, my decision to make a day trip say for instance to SFO, is totally dependent on how efficiently I can use my time. The possiblity of a long wait on either end or both ends, will push the decision into the negative.

This is not good for the airline, and in the end, not even good for the infrequent flyer. Hate to sound like a capitalist here, but money does help love make the world go round. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 02-21-2002).]

Well, it's different in two ways -

First, all of the highway tollbooth devices I'm familar with cost next to nothing - for $25 you can get an EZPass tag with a $25 balance on it (no charge for the device). You can't argue that that is anywhere near the same as flying a mimimum of 25,000 miles; especially since there's no way of making that free.

Second, the toll tags speed up the process of collecting the toll. In my experience, elites have been no better at preparing to go through the metal detector and have their bags x-rayed than non-elites. They all just show up at the magnetometer with an "Oh, I have to go through this security thing?" look and then start emptying pockets, taking jackets off, etc. Furthermore, elites travel with as much carry-on luggage as is possible. The true equivalent of the toll tag system would be a line for people with no carry-ons.


I'm flying US on Saturday because AA doesn't fly the route I need. I'm glad there won't be an elite line over there, because I don't have any status on US (though I do on AA).

I'd prefer that we all get through in 10 minutes or less, when the alternative is US elites getting through in a few minutes and me and everyone else without status wasting 2 hours.

I also like the ability to choose my airline based on price, service, and routes. I don't want the government to tie my hands by offering elite only lines, so that I feel like I can only fly AA, or suffer the 2 hour security line on other airlines.

d

What Punki said.

Airlines' priority boarding areas to close
First-class fliers must get in line
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...21/MN23338.DTL

INPASS is not open to everyone and is not used on domestic flights. It is only used at US ports of entry and only people who fly on business 3 or more times a year are allowed to apply.

Yes, but it could easily be made into a nationwide system. We are not going to solve the problem by creating two lines, we need a major refocus on solutions. Two lines with one based on FF status is the Lural & Hardy solution.

INPASS requires you to have a valid passport. Only around 10% of the population has a valid passport. I doubt the passport office is up to speed to handle the increassed number of applications. The other problem is it takes time even with INPASS to verify who you are--and then you will need to have your bags checked. The whole process would just take more time. If they want to let people through with "smart" cards without checking their carry-on, they are only asking for more trouble.

Why not just do away with security lines and let people bring on board whatever they want. Think of the time savings. Not knowing if your fellow passenger is carrying a firearm would keep most people in line.

The average US citizen flies less than 3 times per year on average. This average citizen also normally shows up at the airport 2-3 hours before the flight ANYWAY. Net loss assuming an hours wait = 3 hrs

FF who flies 100 flights a year??? 100 HOURS. THAT IS OVER FOUR DAYS OF YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!! LOST TO IDIOCY!!!!!!!

And yes, If one pays more money one should get better service including less wait time at security. This is not socialism. The capitalist world is not equal, you pay the money, you get the service. THIS IS the principal that exists in Europe with Fast Track lines.

Aren't we all paying the same $2.50 fee? Assuming we are, which is the case, you're saying we should all get the same treatment, right?

Am I the only one who sees that the only long term solution here is to get everyone through security quickly? The gov't is never going to set up an elite line at every terminal in every airport. If we just concentrate on "elite" lines, there are always going to be airports that don't have them but have long lines. And, unless you have elite status on every airline, or don't fly frequently, there's always going to be a case where you can't fly your preferred airline and will get stuck in long lines.

Not to mention that eventually everyone, frequent or not, will get fed up with the security lines. Airlines make a lot of money off people who fly 20,000 miles a year, losing their business isn't going to help their shaky financial conditions.

Support short lines for everyone. It won't give you that ego boost of zipping in front of everyone else like a "celebrity" but it's best for you and everyone else.

d

I certainly do support short lines for everyone, but they aren't going to happen tomorrow. There's no reason to take this away just yet except to score cheap points that make no real difference in screening time for the masses but slow things down for us.

Yet, the government has stepped in and decided the problems are magically solved by unionizing the same workers, adding chairs (that were already there, as best I can tell!), and removing the one helpful change the airlines had been able to add.

I agree, I would have expected this from the democrats and not George W, but the bureacracy doesn't change from administration to administration and is decidedly liberal.

This seems to be something even Joe Brancatelli and I agree on. His newsletter just came out today and he addresses this very same issue:

http://www.zyworld.com/brancatelli/branc.htm

While I think it's really a non-issue personally as mentioned in my opening remarks, i have no problem assisting you all with getting this the attention you deserve. A couple things - i think we might possible need to form a union. I understand there are probably a half dozen business traveler "associations" but my knowledge of them is that they tend to be private businesses with a commercial bent to them for making money. This has come up before and i've seen the attnetion to such issues as Save SkyMiles, errorplan and an assortment of other issues in the past. So, let me think a little as to the best way we can unionize our effrots for this cause. However, let's make sure that you understand the challenge. It's very easy for you all to get caught up in the little stuff - TalkBoard being an example. You either have to all be commited to the bigger picture (no flaming, no personal disagreements on others personal points of view, etc.) or else this effort will go no where.

So, what do we call this new association of passenger rights, passenger needs, traveler acknowlegement, etc.?

We need this effort for the passenger rights iniative over the last few years and while the Airline Passenger Association (not IAPA) has some media play, my question to any of you - do you belong to that organization? If not, then truly they can't be representing the right niche out there.

So, what's the word? Again, I stand by my own observation that these special lines are not necessary, but will participate and lead for the greater good of many other issues around this that i feel much more passionate about. The bigger picture right?

The Straphangers' Campaign here in NYC has long been a very effective mouthpiece for those of us who live and die by the subway and busses here in the city. For the most part, it is apolitical and represents a wide array of viewpoints while still projecting a unified voice.

We should model ourselves as something similar.

It seems to be a non-issue

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/006492.html

BUt if you're paying more money for your TICKET that doesn;t translate to more money to have the elite lines....

I would be oK w/ a FF line as long as it was along the lines of inspass where you had to absolutely prove identity, not just a "special ID" Otherwise what's the point of a special "elite" security line? Just because you fly C or Fyou are less risk?

oh please...maybe even republicans/conservatives saw that the elite lines were not the best solution...

Elite security lines are back, exactly as I suggested at the top of this thread.
The government is paid to SCREEN everyone; not to control the entire airport. Otherwise, by these egalitarian arguments, airports (which are generally city, state, county or government property) and are paid by tax dollars to run, have airport controllers monitor, the FAA inspect planes, would have to insure "Equal" access to everyone. No frequent flyer check-in lines. No elite gate boarding. No seats in first class on planes inspected equally by the government. Etc. Etc.

Bottom line: the government is paid to SCREEN people now, and no more (except other security-related services) and it's pretty hard to say why controlling lines to access the portols has anything to do with security any more than any of the other things described above that the airlines do all of the time for valued passengers (even congressmen!).

I do agree with Randy though (thanks for the help in response to the community even though you personally have a different viewpoint, which we all respect) that some more visible "union" voice for frequent flyer's positions would be very good, although the airlines seem to have realized that what's good for us is good for them and taken "our" side on this issue anyway at least at this point in time.


[This message has been edited by 1K Prof (edited 02-22-2002).]

If the airlines were paying for the security and running it, then yes, it would make sense -- and be a perfectly valid business decision -- to have "elite" security lines to reward their best customers.

However, if the government is running it...AND if everyone pays the same amount of "security surcharge" -- then the argument for elite lines is far less compelling.

If the government security model followed the airline passenger model, the "first class security" folks could choose to pay (say) $20-30 for the privilege of a very short line, and that would subsidize the other travelers, who would pay little or nothing BUT had the choice to pay more for special treatment if they wanted it. But the model is way different.

The argument for stopping the overkillish hysteric nonsense and making it more reasonable for *everyone* to fly, though, makes perfect sense.

Randy: BRAVO !

Decisions in the airline industry are influenced by many powerful lobbies, but I still have to find a powerful frequent flyers group.

I had suggested this concept in my Talkboard proposals. I think FT is the best place from which such a group (union?) can nucleate.

Aside from this specific issue of Elite lines, in the “big picture”, there are many benefits to having a group of organized flyers make their voice heard in the right places.

The big picture involves being able to influence decisions not only in the halls of Congress, but also within the airlines themselves. Changes in program rules or benefits come to mind, of course.

As far as the name, how about The Frequent Flyer Group (FFG) or The Frequent Flyer Society? I don’t think it needs to be “American”. Congratulations and let’s not lose the momentum on this. You have my full support.

Let’s put together a financial structure (you can’t do this for free and I’ll be glad to send my $50 a year http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif), a charter, a membership and elect representatives.

IMHO, this is the next step in the growth of FT.

Most definetly do away with the preferred parking and any other perks for members of congress at DCA (express lines for congress people or otherwise). Who do those people think they are? They are supposed to be representing the people. Get in line, then!

It becomes a perk/power thing which leads to other abuses in Washington.