DOC 2 BE perhaps needs a bit of disciplining
 

Randy,

Please read the following thread in this forun:

OK, its a start to close OMNI threads with intolerant statements, but why stop there?

Doc 2 Be went off on a rant because he cannot handle the fact that some of us were questioning some of the practices of his religion. Specifically, the topic of circumcision is being debated over on Omni. You can read my comments: I feel it is barbaric and sick. Just like I think any form of mutilation is.

But since Doc 2 Be didn't like my comments, he had to blow his top and start calling me a "Smegma Lover."

Please expel him from FT. We don't need that here.

Can't stand the heat, so get out of the kitchen. If anyone is wondering as to the genesis of this pathetic attempt by SMEGMA LOVER to have me expelled, kindly read the following comments of hers/his. To state that they find the Jewish circumcision ritual barbaric and sick is an understatement, as you shall see:


And this was my response:

I then followed that post with the following post to SMEGMA LOVER:


I invite Randy to investigate this and all the other anti-Semitic diatribes that he has let stand for the past months.


Be my guest. However, should I be disciplined for not turning a blind eye or cheek to these comments in light of his continued silence as he has done nothing to stop this anti-Semitic pablum from gracing his forum despite my repeated urging to him to take some action, I wonder why he felt it so imperative for him to censor, remove and punish perpetrators of anti-Gay rhetoric?

Should I no longer be allowed to post, I can assure you that there will be inquiries into why I was punished for defending my faith while others have been free of such action.

I think the WSJ and the NY TIMES, as well as numerous hospitatity and travel companies would like to know why he has permitted this filth for so long.

I sure would like to know the reason.

D2B



[This message has been edited by DOC 2 BE (edited 11-28-2001).]

Grow up.

Randy shouldn't need to moderate these boards, and he certainly shouldn't be called upon to play teacher and sort out disputes that are, frankly, juvenile. We're all adults here, and are responsible for our own behaviour.

If, in daily life, you were to come across someone who expressed views that you disagreed with, you'd have two practical choices. You could:

1) argue/debate with that person
2) walk away

There is no "run to Randy" option. I suggest you exercise the same behaviour here.

Please take your name-calling elsewhere.

Hi Mathew,

100% my opinion. Is this a Kindergarten?

To add something: O.K., those topics in OMNI are interesting, but should circumcission be a topic for flyertalk? The same is true for those topics on islam.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

MatthewClement:


I seem to recall that you had a choice comment about my religion that you, at least, had good sense to edit. However, your intial decision to post such an attack shows that you were, at the very least, ill-informed, so I would expect you to be insensitive to such things, and your latest post demonstrates that.

Perhaps we should start a thread labelled "Perfidious Albion" and have everyone list the reasons why the British are the cause of all the world's ills as a result of their imperialistic traditions and colonialism for the last 200 years.

And, we can start with the land grabs against the Kingdom in Bulawayo which is the reason for the trouble in Zimbabwe, today.

Didn't Jesus say something about he who is without sin, let them cast the first stone?

I really should know better than to get involved in a discussion like this...but...

Frankly, DOC 2 BE, I don't care whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu. I don't care whether your black, white, yellow, red, or green. What I do care about is that you're acting like a jerk, and are dragging down FT with you. And to imply that Randy is at fault, and threaten:

demonstrates such a sense of self-entitlement that it bowls me over. Do not forget that you are here as Randy's guest. Behave appropriately.

You've drastically overstepped the lines of polite behaviour. You're behaving like a spoiled child, slinging mud, calling names, and tattling to the teacher.

I've chosen not to state a view either way about the issues being discussed in the other thread. I also choose to overlook the comments you've made about the UK.

But you've illustrated my point. Without provocation, you've started hurling insults and calling names.

This isn't what adults do. At least not civilised ones. So I'll repeat what I said. Grow up.


------------------
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Im really sorry about what's going on here. This is not worth of FT, the definetly best board on traveling on the web.

Doc2Be: please stay out of this community if you're not willing to refrain from such posts as above. This is true for others, too, it seems - but I'm glad not to know their names.

Just another $0.02 for Randy to think on. Here's what I'd like to see for all involved in the mudslinging:

http://www.parentclicks.com/timeout.html

Thousands of child psychologists can't be wrong! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

New day.

Old "stuff." http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

At what point can we all officially declare that the war is finally over? If not a real peace, then how about a simple "Korea style" truce of some kind? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Perhaps all the combatants can simply walk away, even if they decide not to shake hands - before anyone is disciplined, no? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

It would seem to be apparent to all that a more factual, disspassionate discussion/argument is the way to go here, as everywhere, with personal barrages against individuals doing nothing but further alienating each of us and doing nothing to advance the views of either!

Moreover, Randy has already spoke on the issue:

"...These topics often stir up debates that can and have lead to minor religious wars here on FlyerTalk. I don't believe that FlyerTalk will or should ever try and become a place for all things topical. It is our wish that all the efforts of our members are focused on the topic of miles, points, travel and food. None of you will be converted no matter how long this thread and others like it rage on FlyerTalk. That's not our purpose and I believe there are many other Web sites who can serve that purpose in a matter far better for members who wish to discuss the impact and meaning of world religion..."

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../003412-2.html

Please email me D2B! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Would everyone kindly look inside themselves and use their ability to think, and then perhaps edit their offensive post(s) so as to keep within the FT TOS and even more importantly to retain a sense of civility and respect for ALL humankind! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Doc2b,

If you have any further comments for me, please send them to my new email address:

[email protected]

No no no, with the kids as out of control as they are, don't you think a spanking is in order?

BooBooKitty, fanning the flames doesn't do anyone any good. My "grow up" comments weren't directed at DOC 2 BE alone.


[This message has been edited by MatthewClement (edited 11-29-2001).]

Originally posted by BooBooKitty:
Dear Doc 2 Be,
I'm sorry if you took offense to someone calling circumcision NONSENSE, but frankly, IT IS!

C'mon! The foreskin of a newborn boy is an offering to your so-called "god" ??? How freakin KOOKY is that!? It's barbaric, bizarre, and some kinky form of pedophilia.

Have fun in Hoboken, boy.


BooBooKitty,

I am not defending D2B, it is not my place. I am writing to ask you a question in the spirit of your post here for Randy to read.

Don't you think an expression like "your so called G-d" is inflammatory and over the line. It would appear to be way over the line in regard to FT policy.

Could you please consider editing or removing this remark. It would lend great credibilty to your post here.

thank you,

Thumper

Oh, so the pedophilia accusation sits well with you?

Sorry, Thumper. I usually ask you to exercise some self-restraint when it comes to the Middle East, but this is an entirely different kettle of fish.

I had asked IT to read the T&C, I was evidently w/o much success, for calling a rite that has been practiced for millenia should not be labelled with such hateful rhetoric.

I disagree with you on this one, as many do with me, and that is fine. But I will no longer sit idly by while such calumnies and inflammatory statements are made here.

If you don't like the names I think are appropriate for you, then don't give me cause by insulting my religion or my co-religionists.

It is that simple.

By the way, where were many of your voices with disdain when these statements were first made?

Many of you had failed to raise a note of concern until only after my christening of those malcontents and offenders?

Extremely interesting.


And Matthew, it seems that you are already a tad defensive about a UK thread that I have not started nor have any intention of doing so. But, it is apparent to me of your defensive posture, so just consider that the shoe might be on the other foot.

Should we start with the British in India, then? After all, the East India Company's land grab started well before the Empire's interest in Africa.

What did Victoria say about India? Oh yes, it was the "Jewel in her Crown."

Maybe we should all start to remeber that Charity begins at home, and be well to remember Ionnesco's play "Rhinoceros."

Well, where to start. First of all maybe I should have slept in this morning? Maybe it was a great day to call in and say I was going to take the morning off to get a start on some holiday shopping. Or maybe it was a day when I would have loved to give the TalkBoard some much needed attention. Well, truth be told - none of that will happen, so let's get in on this.

There's two different things going on here and I sense they are being put into one basket. Yes, I was asked by DOC 2 BE to look into an individual's posting habits. That individual has 2,578 posts and DOC 2 BE has 1,935. Individual investigations take a long time because of the sheer number of posts to look at and also these types of things will not be done in public (my decision and I'm sticking to it). This request came in after the events of 9/11. It is ongoing and I dispute any assertion that I am refraining from any decision on the individual's involved. Enough said.

As for closing the posts noted above, it was easier to do because the complaints about the posts came from many individuals and none of the comlaints named any individuals, only that the topic was getting out of hand. It is much easier to read a few posts on a single thread and decide the appropriateness of the topic than it is to try and interpret an individual's intent. And for the record, closing these threads was neither a start nor a stop, but you'll not find the truth in the public. From the start I have resisted making a public mockery out of every single incident involving members. I suspect that those of you who have received my support in private and even those of you who have received my guidance in private prefer that things involving individual's actions on FlyerTalk remain a subject between the administrators of FlyerTalk and them.

As for this thread, I'm not afraid of taking any heat from any individual and will not hide from crticism. So, post what you will but remember two things: you are what you post and must be responsible for it and it's really, really easy to embarass yourself on FlyerTalk.

Anyway, it's time for me to get back to work on a few things regarding this board.

No provocation. I guess you must be dead, or brain-damaged. You decide.

And it is mighty big of you to have stayed out of the "Circumcision" thread, for I certainly could have used such invaluable assistance and insight that you would have most definitely have brought to the table had you been so offended by the statements made therein --- NOT.

No, it appears to have been only my defense of my religion and the manner that I have chosen that has gotten you all so riled up.
But not, obviously, an attack on my beliefs that insuinate that my religion is full of a bunch of pedarasts.

Well, you should all be ashamed of yourselves for your silence.

Yes, I stand corrected, it has been "only" 2 months since I had asked you to investigate Stimpy. However, with your permission, I would like to release your e-mails to me where you stated that you would like a bit more time to investigate the matter -- a 1 week extension.

I am glad to hear that you are still investigating my complaint, but I would like to know why does not the pedophilia statement concerning my religion and its traditions not merit an immediate shutdown and censure?

Why is it that you only seem to have acted with any alacrity when anti-Gay sentiments were aired on FT?

As I have said before, I support your position in that matter, I just wonder why you have yet to act, on at least this disgraceful attack on the Jewish (and Muslim) religions?

[This message has been edited by DOC 2 BE (edited 11-29-2001).]

D2B,
I was hoping to write to you off line, that does not appear to be an option.

You are correct that you often ask me for restraint in discussions about the Middle East. You also know that I am an IAF veteran. It is insulting that someone who seems to have served our people by getting writers cramp should tell those of us who fought in wars we should be ashamed of ourselves for the way we defend our people.

BooBooKitty proved what she was early on in her posts. There was no purpose in responding. Some people truly are beneath contempt.

I suggest you take a time out. Reread some of your recent posts. Please follow Randy's advice: you are sullying your good name with these vehement postings.

I too have fallen to that urge, but I'm trying to do better. Please join me.

As Doc has done, I invite you to contact me offline.

Thumper

[This message has been edited by Thumper (edited 11-29-2001).]

Doc 2 be,

I really wish you had an email address posted.

Could you please post one?

Thanks,

Dorian

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Dear Thumper --

No insult was intended, but in any event, I am truly sorry and sincerely apologize for that impression.


Now, that it seems that Randy is finally paying some attention to this matter, as my private e-mails to him went unanwered as to the status of the investigation of Stimpy, I suggest something novel.

You see, it was not I who had asked Randy to review all of Stimpy's (or for that matter, my) posts; rather, I just brought to his attention those that I felt crossed the bounds of civil discourse.

So in the interests of time, I formally ask Randy to temporarily suspend his investigation of Stimpy, so that he may concentrate on Boo Boo Kitty's posts. (Yes, I said it.)

First, although Stimpy's post are horrendous, hers/his go even beyond that, and therefore, I formally bring charges against her/him.

Moreover, inasmuch as he/she has only a small number of posts, no laborious and time-consuming investigation will result, as it apparently does with my complaint against Stimpy.

I take note that AVGAZ who was banned for his anti-Gay comments about a FT member also had few posts, and that, in addition, Randy was at the very least close down Muminah's threads, because she too, had a small number of posts. Further, that thread was shut down quite rapidly, so I forsee no difficulty with a prompt and speedy resolutiion of my request for an investigation of the one I named above.

I would ask for one of R&R, but at 200 posts, I fear that would only delay my request.

And I again request Randy that he permit me to send or post our corresspondences to one another in relation to Stimpy, as he states that he has nothing to hide.

I wished it had not come to this, but apparently, the permissive attitude around here has allowed people to take the view that it is "open season" on Jews within these pages, and I will endeavor to dissuade them of that fact by like means.

Finally, I thought that my christening her/him with that name was quite humorous as since she evidently is against circumcision, she must accept the potential consequences of her decision.

It is a pity that some of you only thought to criticize me for that name, but have been, and still are, silent as to his/her truly offensive analogy of one of my religion's holiest rites.

Well, it is truly enlightening as to what priorities some of you have around here really do hold.

blah, blah, blah...

Here we go again.


How hard is it to ignore the posts and ignore the poster when it become obvious you disagree?

I guess you can't follow your own advice. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Post an email address!

Hey Dorian,

Why would you want to talk to this guy direct?

While we're discussing offensive comments Vic, I stumbled across this gem of yours...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VicOsaki:
When we were running around naked in the junior high gym showers virtually all the boys were circumcised. There were probably too many Jewish doctors back then.

I notice you have chosen not to edit nor retract it.

[This message has been edited by Thumper (edited 11-29-2001).]

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Thumper:
While we're discussing offensive comments Vic, I stumbled across this gem of yours...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by VicOsaki:
When we were running around naked in the junior high gym showers virtually all the boys were circumcised. There were probably too many Jewish doctors back then.

I notice you have chosen not to edit nor retract it.

[This message has been edited by Thumper

(edited 11-29-2001).]

---

Dear Thumper --

Don't hold your breath. I have now learned that one can say anything they want on this board about a religion, ethnic group, race, etc. and provide the most offensive stereotypes imaginable, but the powers that be, and evidently many of the FT membership do not care, so long as you do not lauch a "personal attack" at the perpetrator for their offensive statements.

I had not realized this until the following post by Rudi:

You see, no where does he state that offensive characterizations of a people, religion, ethnic group, etc. are "verboten," only "personal attacks." One can concentrate on the "issues at stake" even if they offensively characterize a religion's traditions, or they convey thoughts that are racist, etc.

Well, that is certainly emblematic of the Swiss, and their double dealing. After all, they traded with the Nazis right up through the end of WWII knowing that the British and the rest of Europe were virtually bankrupt from the war and would be looking for reconstruction money, so that their double dealing would go unpunished.

Moreover, most would now concede, although not the Swiss, that the money they provided for the reconstruction was from the Swiss Bank accounts they encouraged their Jewish clientele to open, but that they would not return to their benefactors or their descendants.

Notice, Rudi, that this statement is NOT a personal attack as those are verboten, merely an observation of mine that has as much right to be voiced on these pages as VICOSAKI'S "JEWISH DOCTORS" trash, Stimpy's "nefarious controlling cabal of US and worldwide Jewish/Zionist opinion makers, media magnates and lobbyists," and my favorite, BOOBOOKITTY's "well-reasoned" judgment that the Jewish circumscision rite is a masquerade for what it apparently really is, much to my wonderment, for it is nothing more than a pedophile's delight.


I understand now. "Personal Attacks" -- NO -- Bigoted and Racist Rhetoric -- Fine.


[This message has been edited by DOC 2 BE (edited 11-29-2001).]

I'm sorry guys, I completely overlooked and forgot about Muminah's post that Hitler was right to have slaughtered 6 million Jews!


Well, at least it was not a "personal attack."

Medical student and a lawyer.... (??)

Geez, I hope they do some psychological screening before they allow graduates to practice medicine.

Congratulations, it has only taken you 4 entire days to come up with that pearl. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000598.html

Your wishes are reminsicent of what they used to do to Soviet Jewish "refusenicks" who complained of the anti-Semitism that they had encountered and for which they sought change. I do not expect you to comprehend this, however, for you are obviously much too narrow-minded and you obviously think it more important to attempt to silence me than you do for the offenisve comments that have been posted on this board about Jews. As you have not said one word about those who posted those comments that I have highlighted, but instead focus your attention upon me, you betray the type of person that you really are and the sentiments that you clearly hold. I am glad that you have exposed yourself for what you really are.

However, I do have a suggestion that I only can hope that you will follow, and it was not even I who had first suggested it.

The statement was dead on when it was first posted, and it is even more true today.

.

I second that idea.



[This message has been edited by DOC 2 BE (edited 12-02-2001).]

.

Could you kindly elaborate? What kind of person do you think I am? What sentiments do I harbour? I guess my memory fails me, but it seems like you must know me for a long time.... where did we meet? Please be so kind as to help me remember.

Your ideas (whatever they are [?!]) seem to blind you from the fact that I (like others) wish to quiet you down (and not you alone, but also the 'others') because this board is about travel and miles. You, and others that insist on taking topics to issues of religion have no place here. So, to agree with you on one issue, I do speak out against those 'others' as well.

Please provide me, as well as the rest of the readership, with citation[s] of a thread that I have started that deals with religion, save ones that are not a direct outgrowth of this latest dust-up.

Further, I would be most interested for your citations as to where you previously spoke out about relgious issues finding their way onto this board.

D2B, your request is irrelevant... Why dont you start posting about travel and miles and make friends on the boards, instead of picking fights?

Have I missed something? Did I miss your investiture? I am truly sorry, for I must must have done so -- or, I never received an invitation, or I must have amnesia or something, because I missed your coronation as Emperor around here, which permits you to dismiss my direct response to your statement, as "irrelevant."

You alleged the following:

I asked you to provide any proof of same, and you respond with the lame excuse that it is now somehow "irrelevant."

Nevertheless, in an attempt to put this all behind us -- until the next time that someone makes disparaging remarks about Jews or Judiasm (or any other form of intolerance) -- I will be all too happy to honor your plea so long as others do likewise.

[This message has been edited by DOC 2 BE (edited 12-03-2001).]

Doc 2 Be: Could you explain to me why the above is not as bad as an anti-semitic slur? Strikes me that you are using a pretty broad brush to essentially say, "Rudi, you're a double dealer like all Swiss. Look what they did in World War 2."

No, I am just pointing out the fact that nowhere does Rudi ask the readership to refrain from offensive broad generalizations about ethnic groups, religous intolerance, etc.

Inasmuch as those topics were the type that I have taken issue with herein and their continued posting appear to be fine with him since he does not discourage the readership from posting similar drivel, I have consequently decided to post some factual material that does not make a personal attack on anyone.

If, however, others conclude that the generalization is appropriate to the poster, well, I cannot censor anyone's thought process. All that I can do is attempt to enlighten those who do not know anything of the matter, and/or attempt to show the falsity of claims by those who preach religious, ethnic, etc. intolerance.

As you know, there is a specific ban on individuals posting matters that I have highlighted as offensive, yet no action has ever been taken against those who transgress those rules.

I have been told that this customarily is not done, and that such is practically unworkable, anyway. Fine. I, however, will attempt to combat those posts -- in addition to posting travel related material -- as warranted.

Thanx for your interest in the matter.

No. You are doing exactly as dgolds suggests: painting with a broad brush while accusing other of the same thing. I'm sure you're familiar with the term straw man

Yeah, you use your convient straw man for the personal attacks.

Notice the qualification about posting travel related material. So your real purpose here is conducting a crusade to stamp out intolerance per your definition.

As long as the pro/anti Nazi, Jew, KKK, Islam, Christian, Buddhist, Conservative, Liberal, gay, hetro, Mac, Windows, Goofy's a dog, Goofy's a man, and any other cause, cult, or personal standard (or total lack of) remains in that cesspool that has become OMNI, I can be a content FlyerTalker.

Heck, I've even gone in there to take a crap once or twice (but mine doesn't smell, you know).

Anything to keep this bile out of the main travel forums, thank you very much.

In the absence of strong and swift moderation, a dumping ground is the best alternative. Even in the finest home, the poop has to go somewhere.

All hail OMNI! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

IMHO.

And lets all have a moment of silence for what would be our savior, namely the aforementioned Strong, Swift Moderation.

I've had a brilliant idea. How about moving all these threads over to the BWIA International Airlines forum, where they'll get all the attention they deserve?

MatthewClement:

That was literally the funniest thing that I've seen on Flyertalk in weeks!! Hey, you're from London. What's the secret (if any) to getting tickets to Lion King?