Uncle Sam doesn't assess income tax when I buy a $100 printer and mail in proof of purchase for a $25 rebate. When viewed as a rebate of dollars spent (and particularly clear when you compare earning miles on a credit card vs. using another card that would earn a 1% cash rebate), it's clear that simply arguing that frequent flier miles clearly have value doesn't mean that they should be taxed as income when earned.

I think the situation with employees receiving upgrades ahead of eligible customers ready to spend miles or upgrade certificates on United Airlines is perceived as being significantly worse than with other airlines. While I'm not sure that I'm prepared to support a corporate policy such as you describe at Delta where depriving a customer of a seat for a non-rev is usually punished by termination, I think the perception is that United has nothing even close to such a policy.

(My reluctance about Delta's policy: it should have to be willful, deliberate behavior on the part of a gate agent depriving an eligible passenger of an upgrade in favor of a non-rev that could be grounds for termination. But I would support an automated process which goes through all Delta flights after they take off and sends warnings to gate agents when it's noticed that a non-rev was cleared into first class when there was a passenger who checked in ahead of the 20 minute deadline and wanted an upgrade but wasn't cleared.)


[This message has been edited by pshuang (edited 11-23-2001).]

I don't know much about Delta. Since they don't offer upgrades on discount fares I don't fly them. But United definitely has uniformed pilots flying domestically in First Class all the time.

And award flights are most certainly not "free." They are a contractual obligation your airline agrees to in return for our business.

If you read the IRS Regulations on employee fringe benefits, its clear that FF miles earned in the course of employment is taxable income. It's no different than a company car used for personal travel, or a free company caferteria.

Originally, the problem was valuation. There are so many restrictions on the use of miles both written and practical that the IRS was at a loss as to how to value the miles.

Now, it's also a political problem. Taxpayers after decades of conditioning have come to assume that miles are not taxable, a major revolt would occur if the IRS attempted to tax miles now.

There has never been a question with respect to personally earned miles. This is a non taxable refund, just like the rebate on a car.

[This message has been edited by VicOsaki (edited 11-24-2001).]

N866DA, I basically agree with your post. However, I would not rate award travel as free or even say that the airline is loosing money on this - it has already been paid for with the prior flights flown in order to earn the award.

For what I know here from Flyertalk, United is ways different from Delta regarding premium cabin upgrades. Delta only has two-class configs, while United also has three-class-configs.

But you have to admit that there are indeed some ways to work a flight the advantage of the non-rev passengers. Some gate agents do take advantage of it, some don't.

You stand corrected. UA ALPA requested and received guaranteed premium class NRPS for ALL domestic/international deadheading/COBUS travel in their last contract. I believe they travel with BP-3 priority, but don't quote me.

Regretfully, this is not the case. The Department of Transportation has ruled that passengers on mileage award tickets are to be considered as NON-REVENUE passengers for purposes of ascertaining contractual passenger rights.

For example, a passenger on an award ticket CAN be involuntarily denied boarding WITHOUT any compensation due. Passengers on award tickets who are inconvenienced due to misconnection or cancellation ARE NOT eligible for rule 240 interline reaccomodation.

To N866DA's credit, Delta's policy on these issues is slightly more flexible and generous. They will pay Invol DBC comp based at 20% of Y fare and will issue FIMs for rule 240 interlines. N866DA, see G*865/44-15

I remember a certain DL agent at SFO FTO who made fun of me for claiming a domestic award last month. Any comments now, huh? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Okay, so I'm back from a holiday trip to San Francisco and have a couple of new comments. First, I realized that one of the unspoken benefits of flying in first class is that I meet people who might be of benefit to my business. I counted three contracts my firm won which started by sitting next to someone in first class. On my 777 from DIA to SFO, I think I was the only paying customer. When I saw the passenger list, all had PS next to them--meaning "positive space." And, virtually ALL had crew tags on their luggage. So, I'm not going to make any business contacts on that flight.

Second, when we were delayed getting out of SFO on return, I called the 1K desk to find out about alternatives. She said they had no room in first on any flights until late that day. When I asked how many first seats were reserved for United employees, she paused, giggled a moment, then said, a few. Which I took to mean more than a few. So, while we wait for what appeared to be a ground crew created delay, which put my connection in Chicago at risk, I could not be moved onto another flight in first (and I held a full-fare business ticket) because crew had priority. Oh brother.

But this appears to be a much bigger problem with UA than other airlines. There are almost no mention of the non-rev customers in the AA forum.

Personally, the only times I could spot AA employees in First/Business is when they are in uniform, like a transpac 777 when 2 additional pilots are on board to satisfy the maximum hours worked requirements. I usually only realize an AA employee is on board when I spot their luggage and see the tags. They certainly don't draw attention to themselves, as many UA fliers have reported non-rev's to do.

I took a US flight recently and was somewhat surprised at how empty first class was. Then, as soon as the doors closed it was like an ice cream man drove by a pre-school. There were more employees scrambling from coach to first than there were non-employees in first. Of course they brought their 13 oversized pieces of luggage per person and jammed it in around all other baggage. Once seated, it was like recess. People were chatting from the window seat to the opposite window seat, the flight attendants were chatting around with those seated. It was ridiculous. At least it makes me less upset when I see it happen with UA. Apparently it is industry standard.

Oh Boy, I can't wait for an airline to do that to me. A quick couple of calls to friends at the assignment desks of newsrooms and a well placed bout of indignant protest later, we'll see who is the better off.

It's their darn program, their darn rules and their darn miles. Let's see them say they don't count as payment with 50 million homes tuned in.

I can only recall once flying on AA when I have sat in a full premium cabin (which I hope means that everyone who wanted to upgrade was able to) and an employee has sat next to me. Just as the door was about to close, two FAs in uniform came on board. Since there was only one seat available, the FA with seniority sat in F and the other FA sat in Coach.

I haven't noticed that AA FAs or pilots have been able to sit in F when my upgrade was denied. When I see an AA employee in F, it is usually a pilot in uniform. I have generally found that AA employees who are seated in F are generally pretty quiet and try not to bring attention to themselves.

The one time that I did sit next to an AA FA in F, the FA working the flight specifically mentioned to the traveling FA that she may not get a meal because of the full load. It ended up in the end that she did get a meal.

I believe that instances such as these where employees know and understand that they may not get a meal (before other passengers, either paying with cash or with miles) and when employees try and be discreet when flying in F show me that AA employees know who pays their checks and care about their customers.

You know, it is NOT industry standard, it's an insult to paying customers. The F-is-the-employees'-personal-treehouse syndrome is most widely reported on UA, but obviously not limited to UA. I have never seen it on CO, AS, NW or AA, however.

Had I been in your position I would have stood up, grabbed my carryon, and informed the presiding FA that I was going back to coach, as the behavior of her co-workers had rendered the F cabin intolerable. I would also have collected her name and file number, and that of the flight's pilot-in-command. And you can bet I would have spent the flight writing to US corporate, naming names.

When some airlines go to enormous lengths to deny their best customers F upgrades in the name of "protecting the integrity of our first-class product," then fill F up with partying non-rev employees, it's time to vote with your feet.

UA employees: I've been making your paycheck less possible since July 2000.

N866DA wrote: You seem to neglect a minor detail, which is that I am a customer spending thousands of dollars a year paying you for providing a service - not the other way around.

As to how would it feel to hear something like that if I worked for the airline:

- If I were a customer focused person (which I am), it would make me want to change my airline so that it wasn't losing the business of good customers because it placed a higher value on employee perks than customer satisfaction, or it would make me want to work for a different airline.

- If I were not a customer focused person, it would go in one ear and out the other.