At least the non-revs have to dress appropriately for First Class...

I don't mind an NRSA or even NRPS traveler sitting next to me.. that's where I get *alot* of my info on United...

-nate

Well at least one airline does not upgrade staff on any circumstance. SINGAPORE AIRLINES.

Year-to-date I've flown over 125,000 actual miles on CO. I am very hard pressed to recall more than a handful of flight attendants, pilots or CO staff up front during my 81 flight segments!

It sounds more like the general attitude here is one of resentment over the fact that some individuals are allowed to travel in First Class free of charge. It isn't standard practice at most airlines to give two seats to a passenger who will only use one.

If you want the seat next to you up front to be open, you're welcome to purchase it. The gate agent will sell you the seat and make absolutely sure that it stays empty.

If you're tired of flying over 100,000 miles a year to maintain top status wtih an airline and get your upgrades, then wait for the next hiring cycle and go to work for an airline. But be warned, you won't be seeing First Class nearly as often as you would as an elite flyer.

Somebody made a comment about spending thousands of miles for seats. If you're claiming awards for travel, then yes, contrary to what you may believe, you are traveling for FREE. Your airline actually loses money on you on flights where you claim rewards because the airline pays the taxes for you.

Somebody claimed that pilots have First Class in their contracts. Wrong again. Delta pilots are only contractually entitled to a seat in premium cabins when deadheading on transoceanic flights, something which happens rarely. This is, by the way, industry standard. If you're on a domestic flight up front and there are flight crew members riding up there with you, it's because they had seats up there left over after upgrading all the elite pax.

Where I work, the golden rule of clearing the standby lists is "Revenue First." Take care of the people that pay your paycheck first. After the elites are taken care of, then we can look at putting some NRSAs up front if we've still got seats, which in this market isn't too often.

If you have never worked a gate and cleared a standby list, think twice before you question those who do. I do that every day, and I can tell you that it is quite challenging on full flights. Some of you have pretty difficult jobs where it's hard to please everybody. You should know how a gate agent feels when clearing the list on a full flight.

While I disagree with Nonrev99 about whether a nonrev is "well deserving" of a seat up front, it is also standard practice here to close flights out 10 minutes prior to departure. It's not an issue of giving First Class seats to nonrevs, it's an issue of getting your flight out on time so that you can make your connection in Atlanta or Salt Lake City and get home to your family on time.

By the way, I noticed how some of you like to insert those witty "making your paycheck less possible since..." lines at the end of your posts, but your credibility goes right out the window when you say that kind of stuff. Your attitude is just as bad as the attitude of nonrevs that feel they are entitled to a First Class seat. If I found out what business you work for and said something like that to you, what do you think that would feel like?

I realize that after reading all this, everybody will toss me into the same category as Nonrev99... but I do my job as best I can, take care of elite pax first, normal pax next, and NRSA pax last. I'm grateful when I can get a seat up front on a flight, which is maybe about 10-15% of the time.

The only thing I can emphasize, I guess, is that at Delta, everything they tell us to do is "take care of the revenue, take care of the revenue, take care of the revenue." Depriving an eligible passenger of a seat, be it in First/BizElite or in coach, for a nonrev, is an offense usually punished by termination.

I hope maybe this clears up some misunderstandings. It's not my intent to fan the flames here, but I think some of you should know how much of a priority most airlines place on serving elite passengers such as yourselves.

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What I say here is in no way sanctioned by Delta Air Lines.

I believe that to be incorrect.

I believe that to be incorrect as well.

In most cases, taxes aren't levied on tix where no revenue is made.

You may want to revise your statement. AFAIK, UA's pilots are contractually guaranteed F seats.



[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 11-22-2001).]

Actually, Passenger Facility Charges (PFC's) as well as international tariffs and customs fees are charged to an airlne per passenger enplaned and passenger processed, respectively, not per revenue ticket sold. PFC's are collected on domestic segments into or out of certain airports (they say "certain" but the list of airports really is just about every major airport in the United States), and international tariffs and customs fees are self explanatory.

There are about 6 more different kinds of taxes on domestic tickets and a myriad of international surcharges, only a few of which are not levied for passengers receiving free transportation.

As for United's contract, my understanding was that they are guaranteed premium seats when deadheading internationally, similar to what Delta pilots are contractually guaranteed. If you can quote their Working Agreement otherwise, then I stand corrected. In fact, I'll see if I can get a hold of it and let you know.

Happy Thanksgiving all.

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What I say here is in no way sanctioned by Delta Air Lines.

I do not have problems with NRSA's per se. The only thing that has pissed me off is when there are a bunch or NRSA's in front with me and they get to choose their meal before me and then the choice I want is not available (as happened on a flight the other day when there were at least 8 NRSA's upfront). This is annoying when I am upgraded and unacceptable when I'm paying full whack for a Biz ticket.

It may be that United pays the international taxes and segment charges. Some other airlines do not. NW charges the international taxes for award flights, and on award flights the segment charges are paid when checking in.
In any event- whatever the airline policy- , it is certainly counterproductive for airline employees to look down on those traveling on award flights ( free flights), and to rank their own employees ahead of them for upgrades.

Particularly in the current economy, one would think airlines want to encourage and affirm a positive and customer friendly attitude. The airlines, as they are now learning, exist for the sake of their passengers. It is a quite different message that is sent when passengers walk to their coach seats past uniformed employees sitting in first class. United may pay a high price, perhaps even the failure of its airlinie, as a consequence of this message, and an arrogant attitude of entitlement by their employees. I do think Northwest has learned how much such an attitude cost it in recent years.

Thanks for the detailed info on PFCs.

One little nit to pick with you, tho. I guess I take issue with the phrase you used about award tix being "free transportation." I figure that since my fanny was parked in a seat for 50K+ revenue miles for the past 3 years those award tix (and upgrades) are hardly freebies.

essxjay....

No prob for the info... As far as the issue of "free transportation," that is precisely what you are receiving when you claim an award, as far as the airline is concerned. Not that you don't deserve it. For the amount of business you give your airline, the least they can do is give you some perks to enjoy.

We never look down on passengers traveling on award tix. As far as we are concerned, you are just as much revenue as the guy who happens to be on a paid ticket. But for the purposes of accounting, the balances on flyers' mileage accounts are considered a liability since the number of miles represents free transportation or some kind of good that the company has promised to give you according to the terms of the FF rewards program.

When you're traveling in premium cabins, flight attendants have a detailed passenger list that indicates which passengers are NRSA and which ones are revenue. They use that to decide who gets to eat which meal.

I understand that it seems frustrating sometimes, but everything we do is to please the elites first, and everybody else next. I know it doesn't always work out that way, but I assure you, that is our intent.

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What I say here is in no way sanctioned by Delta Air Lines.

While I appreciate your position, that is in fact the attitude to which I (and I assume others) object.

When you get a good score on Card Sharks, and win a trip to Bermuda - that is a free ticket. If the airline sends you a "companion flys free" certificate, that is a free ticket.

When you spend 50K miles on a ticket, it is not free.

That 50K miles is a comodity with a definite dollar value. Should I want to buy those miles from your airline, I am allowed to and a price is set. I could get rebates in cash on my credit card instead of them. The same 50K miles would buy me six nights at almost any Hilton Hotel in the world (at an average price of $100 a day.) Or I can get a gift certificate at a department store worth a few hundred dollars.

It is pure hypocrisy for the airlines to create, promote and support this form of currency (FF miles), and then when used by their loyal customers, treat it as if they are doing someone a favor and extending a courtesy.

Paid is paid - bucks or miles is irrelevant.

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 11-23-2001).]

If you guys keep arguing that those reward seats are NOT FREE - - how long do you think it will take Uncle Sam to jump on that same band wagon and TAX your accumulated miles as "income?" I'll keep referring to it as a "freebie" (a deserved freebie) and hope the government keeps their hands off of my mileage bank.

They are already taxed - when accrued. In the cost of the ticket, long-distance bill, car rental rate, etc.

If pax's were actually paying 5X for a seat in the front, they should be upset with employees or traveling salesmen invading their space. But most of the pax's sitting up front are not the wealthy or titans of industry. They're by and large just plain folks who would otherwise be sitting in the back except for the grace of the ariline.

Many would like to believe that they are a member of the annointed. Otherwise why would IowaSun point out that "I'm a 1K and PassPlus and I'm virtually always up front."-- inconsistently observing that employees sitting in the front "just sends a message that coach is for lowlife and that employees would not be caught dead there."

There is plenty of what you call "lowlife" sitting in first class.


[This message has been edited by VicOsaki (edited 11-23-2001).]