IMO, moderators will eventually be required...as I have stated.

No?

Okay, account for the members that have left FOREVER.

They left from frustration over a few bad apples (IMO)...especially during the 'downturn' in the early summer.

If I remember correctly...it took WAY too long to get rid of the mileagegod guy. I almost left the boards at that point...and my tolerance is huge.

This thread is not about Randy and his company ozstamps....it is a discussion of the pluses and minuses of moderators. Give us YOUR opinion (or did I miss it?).

Like I said above...I don't think Randy will put mods on forums...but it will be an eventual reality for the life of the board.

Dorian http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

Dorian ... my opinion on this was stated early, briefly, and quite concisely, viz:

As an example of the difficulty of locating moderators, someone above has volunteered to undertake such a job. That same person was on another thread a day or so back very aggressively urging me to identify by name a person openly selling "VOID IF SOLD" upgrades on an auction. I did not name the person, but others based on that strident urging did so. That seller (a regular FT board member and has in fact posted on this thread) may now possibly be expelled from MP and its highest level and have all his/her program points confiscated. So being a moderator requires certain judgement calls, and many of us may not be always able to make the correct ones. It is a tough job.

The two heaviest users of FlyerTalk, Doc and Rudi say right here THEY do not want the job, and that lead just may indicate how difficult it may be for any of us to undertake.

If you feel Randy's thoughts on moderators were not important to mention on his boards, I apologise for raising them. It just seemed vaguely pertinent to me.

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~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 10-10-2000).]

Don't get me wrong...all posts are certainly valid here....I am personally interested in members thots though (sorry i missed yours...3 glasses of a nice spanish red i have been waiting to open!).

I believe a moderator would not affect your situation. A moderator would "go after" mileagegod types....

I like this discussion...really gets one thinking....

Dorian



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Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

"I am personally interested in members thots though (sorry i missed yours...3 glasses of a nice spanish red i have been waiting to open!)."

Apparently got you thinking AND drinking both, Dorian! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Who was it again that posted that classic thread "Posting while drunk?" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I'm not interested in seeing the board moderated.

Many in favor have pointed to MileageGod as being the reason they now want moderators. Wasn't this guy around here for just a few days and then gone? And to my knowledge this was the first incident of its type in two years. I should hardly think this one jerk's brief appearance on the board should require FT to now be forever changed.

Most of the rest of what I've seen, and maybe I've missed the other stuff, has either been a healthy, if spirited, exchange of ideas or individuals' desires to simply quash ideas/opinions they don't like or ideas/opinions from people they don't like. But doesn't that all go with being part of a community?

Sometimes there are posters who engage in name calling, but it seems to me other people readily and quickly step in and scold the poster. Would a moderator do something different?



[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 10-10-2000).]

Okay DOC...you got me! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Here is the Posting While Drunk thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000893.html

I beg to differ about it being "classic" though! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Dorian

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Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

I hope you understand that this is a thread that I felt needed to go on for a little while before I chimed in. Sometimes jumping in a little early can effect where it leads and I'm pretty comfortable where it is going. Yes, I'm for the bigger picture of responsibility but I do sense (and actually might surprise a few on this thread) that I may change how I view my/our participation on the board. From day one I was comfortable that the board belonged to you - the community; and that we were simply someone who allowed an open forum for it to evolve, similar to owning a coffee house where the intellectuals meet. I'm quite interested in seeing that continue the way this board is used and supported by all of you. To ozstamps points, yes I use the board from an external point-of-view for research and employee training, but honestly, who wouldn't if they looked at the tremendous value of opinions. I'd still use the board the way we do even if i wasn't hosting it. And as most of you know, many other organizations use the board as well. Don't you know most of the major media uses it as well as programs for their own research?

Now, to the point of moderators. I actually think we should start moderating the board from our end, though probably not in the way you typically picture a moderator. For now, members of my staff are only looking for incidents of profanity. Nothing more, nothing less. It might be a good idea to train them to look for incidents of flames and disruptive posting and simply pass that along to me or someone I appoint on my staff to take a quick look at. We are approaching 1,000 posts a day and it is utterly impossible for me or anyone else to know what all of those posts are about each day. And given my other responsibilities as a business owner and travel, there are times where I have to go for weeks without seeing the board. With a little more responsibility on our end, I think we can speed up the time to action (and only if necessary) of addressing flame wars and posting irregularities. I don't view this as moderation because these employees won't actually be addressing the issues themselves, rather they will serve as an early warning system. Now you might say that members of the board all ready function as that. Very true, but the major difference here is that the issue becomes internal to deal with. Currently when the community chimes in for censure, it becomes a whole other topic and that we've seen is almost too much. MileageGod69 was such an example. As many of you know, I personally contacted him and he was fine with my request to talk travel in a public way of contributing to the board, but that was only well after it had already erupted into public censure and the ensuing threads. Moderators are a good idea, my reserve on that is similar as to what is most common among those who have posted here, is a moderator an editor? I hope not, because there have been quite a few threads so articulated here that they have changed my opinion on a few things and I'd hate to think that I may have "moderated" them simply because they weren't in the mainstream of opinions. Let's see what this thread continues to gather for thoughts and come up with a plan.

And, you have again reminded me of something long overdue (thanks Doc), we do need to do a better job of posting the "rules of the board." Consider that a priority around here as of now. I think Doc provided some excellent backgorund on what the rules might contain, any other issues that are outstanding that you all think would be beneficial to address for first timers and also to remind some of us that have been around the board?

As always....simply thanks.

Thanks very much Randy! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

VERY interesting!

Wow, Randy I thought you would be TOTALLY against any form of moderation....but granted, we have never met.

Moderators are NOT editors. They do exactly what you "propose"...watch out for things that get out of hand...not things off topic or not the popular opinion. They simply watch and warn (either internally or directly, depending on the model).

Like I have stated here and elsewhere...I really believe it is inevitable as the # of users grow. As something becomes more popular, fringe personalities wind up joining and changing the flavour of the board. For it to change too much too rapidly would mean valuable posters departing (IMO). Don't misunderstand, change is a reality...but through negative or highly disruptive posts/people...this is not change for the better.

My opinions (once more http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif)

Dorian



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Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

Randy, since you have solicited opinions, here's mine:

Moderators: No.

Board Monitor: Yes.

I think just an email address to someone that is present in your office most of the time to react in a timely manner to any obscene posts, and to "speed up the time to action (and only if necessary) of addressing flame wars and posting irregularities.", would be sufficiant. How much or if you give that person authority to edit or delete posts, I assume you would decide based on your criteria.

Just sort of a "FlyerTalk 911" thing, when and where quick action is needed.

Personally, I've been lucky enough to have never seen a FlyerTalk post that I felt should be deleted or edited by FlyerTalk. I have seen some rather unfortunate comments that I would have hoped would have been edited or deleted by their author, however. But I would never suggest censoring even those, and prefer to let them stand as a sort of "monument" as to that person's character, so that others that come after can make their own personal assessment as to the caliber of the person in question.

IMHO.

Well, as for opinions, mine would be that this is a silly discussion about closing the barn door after the horses left months ago.

Good friends have reduced their posts to almost a trickle. Others have sworn-off FT for good.

We begged for a small number of fully moderated forums, where one could still go for quality, and the rest open forums for any and all. Too late.

When was the last time the Northwest rep who used to be here or the Hilton rep who used to be here participated in a discussion? After the first personal attack they saw, or the first flame war with obnixous, racisist, or stupid posts they saw, Flyertalk became just another internet buliten board to them.

...you don't know what you got till it's gone....

"Well, as for opinions, mine would be that this is a silly discussion about closing the barn door after the horses left months ago.
Good friends have reduced their posts to almost a trickle. Others have sworn-off FT for good.

We begged for a small number of fully moderated forums, where one could still go for quality, and the rest open forums for any and all. Too late.

When was the last time the Northwest rep who used to be here or the Hilton rep who used to be here participated in a discussion? After the first personal attack they saw, or the first flame war with obnixous, racisist, or stupid posts they saw, Flyertalk became just another internet buliten board to them.

...you don't know what you got till it's gone...."

-----

FWIW, for the record, with all due respect to your opinion, I, for one, do NOT agree.

First, I can NOT see where this is "silly discussion" at all -quite the contrary! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I'm baffled! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif Are you really saying that if ability to post had been limited to just what you call "good friends" earlier that FT might well have somehow been "saved?"

As I see it, people come and people go, as they see fit - for various reasons - mostly unbeknownst to me! Yet others are surely far wiser than I!

And also, sorrowfully, I'd missed these occassion(s) when the "we" had "begged for a small number of fully moderated forums" - perhaps you could better direct me and others who might be interested or ideally supply links to these threads? Please accept my apologies, but I missed this and my efforts in reviewing past threads have proved futile thusfar. Or were they by chance done via private email or via some other private means?

Might someone kindly please explain to those less gifted such as myself why it is "too late" rather than simply perhaps "a bit overdue" also escapes me. Is this an "irreversible" situation? Apparently the death toll has already been rung! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif I hope not! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

To think that as this occurred, I was actually a witness - even a participant! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

And while MJW left long ago, for the record, she is the only one of which i'm aware. Adams last participation, at least of which I know, was just a few weeks ago:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum57/HTML/000726.html

And Hyatt, Starwood, and so on, continue to be helpful contributors, IMHO, and others have lurked quietly in the background.

Is it possible that the folks who leave, like the industry reps of which you speak, actually dissassociate from FT due to the incessant complaining? Who's to say - besides they themselves?

-Mark, another IMperfect poster who just happens to enjoy FT! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

NJDavid I diasgree. The airline/hotel reps who participate here should expect some kind of criticism. After all, weren't you the one who was complaining about Hilton comping others gold status and "diluting" the program, a year after you were the beneficiary of comping by Hilton. And if you look at things in balance, an overwhelming majority of posters are supportive of the reps. There may be a small minority who is ticked off by a bad experience, but if you take a look at things in perspective you will find that most people in FT are very appreciative of the presence of the reps. As doc mentions, there are many still around. I can't count the number of times the Starwood rep has received a well deserved kudos and thanks.

I myself was gone for several months as a result of personal attacks and flames. I am back now and this board seems to be thriving. I am sorry that your good friends have gone, but many of the old timers and people that I respect are still here and still posting a lot. FT is no longer what is was in its initial days and while we may miss the old days, change is inevitable.

I appreciate the differing opinions, and respect your rights to have them.

I broke my own rules posting on this topic in the first place, as I'm trying to limit my FT activities to strictly ON-TOPIC (miles, points, traveling) discussions.

But the answers to all of your questions are in past threads. I leave it for those with more time than I and/or a better memory to post links.

As for your other questions:

It is "too late" for those that have stopped participating. Again, searches will reveal those names. The comment stands for itself.

The requests by myself and others for moderators go back a long time, and were made frequently. It has always been debated, with some feeling strongly on both sides. So the "we" in that statement is referring to myself and those that agreed at the time, not everyone here then or now. If one takes easily to insult, then please forgive the license.

Clearly Flyertalk had the opportunity at one time to be the de-facto site to represent the frequent traveler in expressing (as a group) the needs of this rather unique community. Just as clearly (in my mind) flame wars, conga lines, bigotry, trolling, and simple growth made Flyertalk embark upon a different direction. It may be exactly as some participants wanted. Terriffic, I'm happy for those in that group. For me, this will always be a clear example of what might have been.

If moderators are not needed here, then surely they are not needed for the scheduled special "chat" sessions run by the Webflyer staff. Let's let that be a live, free-flowing forum where the loudest and most frequent voice dominates the discussions. If however, everyone can see why there would be no point to allowing that type of uncontrolled forum when Randy's precious time is involved, everyone should see that allowing Flyertalk to be controlled by the loudest and most frequent voice when our time is involved is just as ridiculous.

Hey...you get what you pay for.

Hopefully, we all appreciate the differing opinions and respect each others rights to have them.

"I leave it for those with more time than I and/or a better memory to post links"

Well, I'd hoped you would indulge me after I'd noted my lack of success in understanding these points you'd raised and I'd wrongfully assumed that if you had the time to raise such points that you also had the time to back it up - but I'll survive either way! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

There is no dispute that some left- it is just unclear why. "Good friends," for example, had opined in the past several times that PG had left due to the declining "quality" and low "signal to noise ratio" on the board due to the proliferation of posts and particularly due to abusers who post too much. Yet he has stated various times that it was the bitterness/ acrimony/ flaming, etc, often about this very topic (and others) that, in part, lead to his sabattical. I can NOT assume why people leave!

Moreover, PG, and others as well have left and then returned, making your "too late" comment somewhat difficult for me to comprehend!

"So the 'we' in that statement is referring to myself and those that agreed at the time"

No insult and no apology necessary. This issue has arisen before, and I do personally feel strongly that people can surely best speak for themselves if they so wish -not to preclude the possibility of any FT'er publically appointing a spokesperson for themselves- and Mr Lockhart, having left the White House, may now available! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

"Clearly Flyertalk had the opportunity at one time to be the de-facto site to represent the frequent traveler in expressing (as a group) the needs of this rather unique community..."

I thought it still IS THE site! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Personally, I have absolutely NO agenda and it is what Randy wants that matters to me as a participant. He is the authority as the host or more accurately the owner and the supervisor/manager! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

We participate, or do not, to whatever extent that we see fit at any given time!

For example, while I like FT and like Randy, at the Awards luncheon I did not quite like to go up on stage for photos of the presentation of the Freddie Award to "US" Flyertalkers- only because I had/have some misgivings about the award, in terms of where it came from, how it was awarded and so forth. To some extent, these concerns have been allayed and my reticence has abated somewhat. Yet this was and will always be my individual choice! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

FWIW, as I said above here and previously, I'm not opposed to moderators, nor do I agree however that FT is now "controlled by the loudest and most frequent voice when our time is involved"

It's not perfect, or more appropriately "purrrfect" as Catman would say, but it's now the best available forum for sure, IMHO- and those who care, which presumably includes you, can certainly improve it by participating in a constructive manner and shaping it to improve and make it better and more in line with your dreams "of what might have been".

Hoping your dreams are soon fulfilled! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Mark