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[This message has been edited by FQTV (edited 10-06-2000).]

Moderators - what a laugh...

Agree with Rudi and others on this point, I do not get told at work what I can and cannot say. If I say something inappropriate I take the flak - surprisingly I am an adult, hopefully act as such most of the time and if people dont like something say so...or even ignore it - although on this forum it is like a red rag to a bull.

I do not want to be told whether a certain topic is inappropriate because United or American or Delta may get to hear about it and cancel lobster for the next 2 years as penance.

I find it more amusing some of the time to read the squabbles.

Moderators appear to be another move towards the American way of life in respect of being so PC - "flame" warning I know, but there is a difference between the North Americans and...the rest of the world in this respect.

Which is all a little strange as the US is supposed to be that bastion of free speech - as long as they dont have to put up with someone else!

PITBULL1K for the record, most posters here including US posters do not support moderators or censorship. You have every right to post your stereotypes about what US is and what it is not, but keep in mind that others have rights about pointing out the fallacies in your words.

Moderators on planebusiness are generally very passive; I've seen several flame wars on there go on for quite a while before they step in. (See one thread about homosexuality that dragged on and on and on....)

In addition planebusiness gets nowhere near the amount of traffic Flyertalk gets.. two completely different animals IMHO.

The only moderation I could understand is if the Flyertalk staff (ie those employed by WebFlyer) wanted to do it. Community moderation doesn't work and especially won't work in Flyertalk where opinion's keep getting in the way...

Besides, I think only the General Traveltalk, Omni, Buzz and United bboards are out of control... The first three is to be expected due to their nature; the last one is to be expected due to the strong emotions United elicits from its audience http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif I do think most air/car/hotel specific boards are relatively noise free and like it that way.

My $.03 (inflation)

Nor does Randy & Co appear to support the idea of moderators or censorship! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif They have undertaken the use of censorship only as a last resort in their view.

And BTW, IMHO, here in the US we are likely just as immoderate as the rest of the world? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

FWIW, we might well be more easily accused of being the "Land of Exceess!" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Yet we are not voting here on whether we'll embrace either anarchy or democracy- are we?

Also, unless I'm mistaken, Dorian has not yet made a strong statement as of yet either way regarding moderators - but rather simply and tacitly put forth an idea and asked for constructive discussion of the concept! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Again, as previously noted in my view, the primary issue may well be "just what are the guidelines?":

-Are multiple handles permitted?
-Is personal criticism permitted?
-Are friendly exchanges like "Thanks" etc., between FT's to be discouraged?
-Is their a broadband problem to be considered so as to limit our posts?
-Is a certain degree of anonymity permitted or actively discouraged?
-Are repeated exchanges between "undisclosed" family members/close friends permitted?
-What is the policy regarding tradgeties and posting them on FT? Is this discouraged?
-What language, specifically, is prohibited?
-Are complaints and ongoing customer service issues with providers appropriate?
-Is it acceptable for FT's to disclose personal information regarding other FT's specifically against their will?

Once again, IMHO, ONLY a brief statement from FT genuinely addressing these concerns will effectively put this issue "to bed" once and for all! And it just might solve the seeming problems perceived by some FT'ers by enabling all the contributing members of the FT community to more effectively govern themselves! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

dg1, I respect your right to state your opinion, but want to follow it up with my own.

In my experience, moderation does work. It can work here, too. It's not about inhibiting people's right to express their opinions. It's about keeping discussions civil and somewhat on topic.

I've been on two moderated Internet forums, one a mailing list that deals with some extremely personal issues, and the other a technical forum on CompuServe. Both can get quite heated. I've rarely seen the moderator take anyone to task on either forum except when things really flared up. (At which point, there were usually several calls for "Moderator?") My take on moderated discussions is that knowing that a thread is moderated can give participants a little extra incentive to think before they hit the "submit" button.

I've unsubscribed from two other discussion forums that were not moderated, and both of which I really enjoyed when I started reading them. The level of discussion degenerated to such a degree that I couldn't take it any more. I saw that happening on FlyerTalk this summer, took a two month vacation, and came back hoping for the best. (So far, so good.) I think it's an idea worth looking at.

I'd certainly appreciate hearing more - why don't you think moderation would work, and especially here on FlyerTalk? More specifically, where have you seen moderation on an Internet board to be a problem, and why was it a problem? Perhaps I'm too biased in favor of moderation because I've only had good experiences with it, and need to hear about some negative ones.

[This message has been edited by dgolds (edited 10-09-2000).]

It is true (Doc), I have not taken a specific stance.

I for one am against rules and control...let me state that up front.

If I had to choose....it would be:

60% moderators
40% no moderators

Like said above...moderators control the peaks...nothing else. They "call in the troops" when necessary.

Hey guys, this is just discussion anyway. My feeling is that Randy would NEVER go with moderators anyway. IMO though...it will be necessary eventually...assuming FT continues to grow in user numbers.

Dorian



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Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

I found this board summer of 1999, being a passive lurker. But I have noticed the loss of some great members, and less-frequent contributions from others. The flame wars and the like are a huge reason why I am not an active participant here, but now I am registered and may change that.

I'm firmly on the pro-moderation side, as long as it is not someone from within. It would need to be an outsider with sound judgement. If the topics got overly personal, off-topic, etc, it would be ok to close the thread. I'm also a lurker at PlaneBusiness, and they have little problem with moderation, though sometimes the moderators take action later than I'd like.

The country the majority of FlyerTalks hail from is based on the idea that if you are unhappy with your rulers (moderators), you have every right to revolt to change that. If a moderator continually makes bad calls, letting his opinions on the heated topic get in the way, he should be kicked out and a new moderator called in. It won't work if this can't happen.

IMO.



[This message has been edited by netminder (edited 10-09-2000).]

dgolds, Just like you have good experience with moderated lists I have bad ones. I ran a succesful email based mailing list with several hundred subscribers. After a spat of problems we switched to a moderated environment. The level of discourse immediately dropped ... we went from a hundred posts a day -- most good -- to ten or twenty, most bland. Too many people questioned the choice of moderators -- especially since as the owner of the list we chose others as moderators.

So hence I agree with the others here if we are goign to hvae moderation it's going to have to come from someone somewhat detached from the day to day discussion and also with authority from the source -- the owner of the site.

In any case, I think it's obvious some of us want moderation, some don't. A simple test would be to moderate some bboards and not moderate others. Maybe moderate Buzz but not Omni. Or something like that.. and see what happens.

dg1: That why I posted the question. Thanks for sharing that experience. Now I have a much better feel for where your viewpoint is coming from.

I take it from your post that (1) moderation really quelched discussion on your list, a bad thing, but also (2) your unmoderated list had problems, else you wouldn't have gone to a moderated one. So where's that happy medium?

Obviously, I would hate it if moderation caused a good list to lose subscribes (other than the inevitable MileageGod69 types.)

I have not problem with moderators. I've seen them work on other discussion group/boards and would be willing to volunteer for a board or two here.

I, too, am against censorship and for the First Amendment. As a newspaper editor, I probably hold these views more deeply than most others here.

And, finally, all a moderator should do is watch for personal attacks and then warn people publicly to stop and regain the civility that, for the most part, exists here. If a situation does generate into a flame war and its participants refuse to take it off the boards, then the moderator should be able to delete such posts.

Two small points of discussion.

Rather than deleting whole threads, UBB software allows threads to be closed to further posting. What would be the justification for nuking rather than simply closing down a thread? Even the infamous MileageGod69 threads were simply locked rather than removed. I think topics should only be deleted for legal reasons (libel, fraud, etc.) but not rhetorical ones (flame wars, too much R-rated chatter).

While I agree that some degree of detachment is a prerequesite for moderators, they can't be so far removed from the action that they have no context from which to assess the appropriateness of the posts. For example, if I go way OMNI on kokonuts, or Catman goes OMNI about Yaz and Eddie the moderator should let that stuff slide with comment. Good-natured jousting with others on the boards is part and parcel of this community.

Your thots?

dgolds What is the happy medium? I don't there is any... after all you can't please all the people all of the time. Rather than moderation we started to offer a digested form of the mailing list -- so folks who were tired of getting hundreds of email now just got one long one that could be skimmed quickly. That worked for us.

I think there is enough support and opposition for moderators to make a test run a good idea. However, I can't speak for others but I know if parts (or all) of this bboard was moderated I'd stop posting....

Why? Other than a few extreme cases like Mr. MileageGod, I find small flame wars refreshing.. it lets people including me get out their aggression... and gives some insight into a person's biases and background so you can understand their posts (after all, you don't come to me to ask about how great United is http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif)

Hence why I suggest if there is moderation to do it in pieces -- and see how the overall populace reacts... With the way the Delta folks had to bang Randy and crew over the head to get responses about their problem I think the status quo -- no change -- is a lot more realistic than any sort of moderation.

Others I am sure have asked Randy's thoughts on this at gatherings he has attended. I certainly did at some length when I had dinner with him here in Sydney last month.

I can only repeat what he said then, and that is he is very comfortable with how the FT board system works right now. He said it is a unmatched "listening post and pulse" for his core business (he has more than 30 staff) and was surprised at the general decorum and input level and wide range of opinions and nationalities of those using it, most especially compared to other internet chat fora on travel.

Many of the points DOC raises were discussed. Randy may of course shoot me down in flames here, but my take was that he was very comfortable with the way things are NOW. He did in fact mention a figure he was spending on an updated, faster and more efficient and feature packed board he is soon to install. It was not chicken feed and he was keen to go ahead. Running this board costs him a pretty sizeable figure each year, even taking off the moderate income from the banner ads. He mentioned it was money he was absolutely delighted to spend.

The speed and effectiveness with which the army of "stinging soldier ants" swarmed and repeatedly bit that "MileageGod69" idiot recently possibly indicates those on these boards can be relied on to "moderate" most outburts pretty quickly, and VERY effectively. That person went away pronto. The FT staff took a long time to act, and those of US here were the "police" in that instance. Not a few of us, but many dozens of us.

This board allows Randy "instant" feedback on things he may wish a prompt answer on from regular fliers. Like some others here I imagine, I received in the past 24 hours an email from David Field, the Aviation reporter for "USA Today" re the differences between airline business/first seats, asking if my comments on the board could be quoted. Randy raised this thread in "The Buzz" and the immediate input he received was clearly useful to "USA Today". I doubt any other avenue for fast, first hand input would be available to any newspaper, anywhere.

Randy did say the sheer volume of people using his boards is a tremendous “people meter” to draw upon for advice he may be asked to offer or proffer. In effect we are a plugged in, instantly contactable, educated and unpaid “staff” of several 1000 experts on their own areas of travel! He said many of his feature stories in “Inside Flyer” have emerged from FT threads, so we as a group are a prime resource for leads and info of new deals, promos, loopholes etc that otherwise he’d not be aware of. We teach HIM thing each and every time he scans the boards he commented.

Randy also said that FT is an essential “training ground” for any new staffers he engages. He commented ALL his staff are trained in multi tasking in all the other areas of his Flyer based businesses. He insists they spend a day or two in solid on line “lurking around the boards”, for them to better understand WHO his business is aimed at, what we seem to want and what we seem to dislike most etc. I can see on that basis FT does make a very useful and “real time" resource to be hosting.

In the "big picture" of Randy's business operation FT is a small sideshow I gather. We ourselves in the main possibly over-rate our influence and importance at times! In fact it costs quite a deal of money to run and maintain. But is a very important resource all the same that cross feeds live data to many of his core businesses.

I was fully expecting to be greeted at dinner by the odor of "Barbecued Ozstamps" based on the whooping of a small band of Indians on FT lately. I was half expecting to be banned for life from FT, invoiced a buck for every post I’d made, having my passport confiscated etc, but no such thing. I gather Randy especially values the input from those regulars OUTSIDE the USA as he often is speaking to operators and airlines not based in the USA – such as his meeting with the Flyer program people at Qantas for instance here earlier in that day. They listen as he KNOWS what the score is.

I am sure Randy appreciates that all people are different and have different styles and ideas and seemed quite comfortable with FT as it stands. He commented on the incredibly high education and presentation level of those who use his boards. I think he is was pretty proud of that, and mentioned what an absolute unregulated, foul mouthed mess some other travel boards have become.

Outside of deliberate and repeated profanity or real froot loop trolls like the “MileageGod69" types, it was my distinct understanding he personally does not have a problem with healthy interchange of ideas and views on his boards. He seems pleased that no official moderators have ever needed be appointed as the boards tend to find healthy balance in self regulation most of the time.

Randy mentioned he set up his “Flyer” empire about 15 years ago on a shoestring of a few $1000, and it has grown and been constantly fine tuned from there. I really have a lot of admiration for someone able to do that, and yet still be so enthusiastic about what he does, that he willingly went on the “Latin Pass” run via ten or whatever Latin countries in paid coach tickets, to get his million points! I really appreciate the superb resource Randy has offered us in hosting Flyer Talk.

I personally have learnt a huge amount from it in the 4 months I have been around here. I also did not want to be overstepping the line from his standpoint with very frequent posting, and introducing often controversial points of view, and raised these very issues specifically with him, as he after all is the one who sets the rules and pays the bills. He had hours of opportunity to take that conversation wherever he wished. Randy simply laughed and said he was absolutely comfortable with it how it stood, and would be comfortable with the input from a "dozen more Ozstamps" if they discovered his boards. (Loud groan from many in the peanut gallery here!) The wider the mix of postings and opinions and nationalities, the more representative and useful the board was to his organization AND to other board users was how I recall him responding.

He did say he really enjoys the FT gatherings he has managed to attend, and really believes there are some superb individuals who are regulars, and mentioned many warmly by name who he feels are fine people he has been delighted to meet and to know.

A lovely guy. Many of you know this from long association, and I suspect some have not yet had the opportunity to meet Randy Petersen. Try and do so if he attends any FT gathering you can make it to! Some of us are urging him to attend the "Altier" FT weekend in Dusseldorf Nov 10/13. As many as 50 FT'ers from all over the globe are flying in for that one. Watch Bernie's thread for constant updates on that in "FlyerTalk Community" Forum!


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~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 10-10-2000).]

"Even the infamous MileageGod69 threads were simply locked rather than removed."

I believe, Essxjay, that this is NOT correct. Thread(s), as well as many posts were actually excised en masse- to the great chagrin of some!

Agreed, Randy is an absolutely "swell" guy! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

It's some others that we ALL need to perhaps be somewhat concerned about! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

And so at some point addressing the previously raised concerns would be really great, IMHO! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif