roberto donut like it wind you bash doc.

doc goes way back, like a first glass seet. he was ear before the nicotine-daddy.

Doc:

I think you post here showed a lack of class, actually I should correct that.

Low is still a class.

Mary Jo, posts a diplomatic post and you respond with a sly remark.

I guess when it comes to the quest for 1 million posts, you'll stoop to anything.

You may far more posts than Mary Jo, but when it comes to class you're outta her league.

Mary Jo, I'd be worried. That post from DOC almost sounds like he's stalking you on line...SCARY.

R0BERT0, Hi DOC! ANOTHER NEW IDENTITY? AREN"T THE OTHERS GETTING ENOUGH POSTS?

"Doc:

I think you post here showed a lack of class, actually I should correct that.

Low is still a class.

Mary Jo, posts a diplomatic post and you respond with a sly remark...."
-----

Boomer- You have seemingly GREATLY misunderstood my remark! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif I would have thought that you would know me better! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

There was ABSOLUTELY nothing sly intended, nor do I have any reason to feel sly or whatever with regard to MJW in any way. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

In fact, Mary Jo was the BEST thing going at NWA and I believe she tried VERY HARD to help me out in rectifying some serious issues I had ongoing with them. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Please DO NOT confuse my problems with NWA as problems with her.

Among other things I sought only to welcome her warmly and to apologize if I was such a harassing FT'er!

I've REread the post now a dozen times and still fail to see how this might have been misconstrued! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

"Mary Jo, I'd be worried. That post from DOC almost sounds like he's stalking you on line...SCARY.
R0BERT0, Hi DOC! ANOTHER NEW IDENTITY? AREN"T THE OTHERS GETTING ENOUGH POSTS?"

----

There is apparently no bottom to the levels you will ostensibly go with the incessant demo's of your great intellect and charm! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I only wish I had a nickel for each error you made in content & judgement - my retirement would be far richer! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

But FT pays the price! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Good night all! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Phew this one is getting way over my head. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

I can't personally see anything "sly" about someone wanting to contact another FT'er they clearly have met, had a lot of contact with, and wanted to ask a question of? Unless I have missed the point entirely, that is all that seems to have happened there with Doc's post? Punki also said Hi and thanks for all the help to the same person, but there does not seem to be a lynch mob after her. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

And Cigarman .. the "stalking" comment is right over the top I feel, and if it were typed about me I'd be very angry. Your MonteCristo almost got a few "accidental" little pin holes inserted! Lucky it is in a metal tube - c'mon, that surely really was uncalled for? And as to Roberto, whomever he/she is, I wish someone had invented a domicile other than OZ for him! Can't he be from Peru? Roberto .... sounds Latin?

------------------
~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 11-06-2000).]

Ozstamps,

The difference between Punki's post regarding MJW and Doc's is that Punki is most certaintly not the member who drove MJW away. I cannot say with 100% certainty that that member is doc, but I cannot think of who else she may be refering to.

That being said, and given doc's outright hostility towards NW, I found doc's response to MJW very strange.

Camera Guy. Thanks. All before my time here I'm sure, so will keep out of that one, as I have no knowledge at all of the background. Not knowing of any possible politics, (which wass the position I read it from) it really was a friendly and welcoming post, so could not fathom the reaction to it. But, I have never been to the NW Forum as I recall, so am sure others know more of the backgrund than I.

This to me hardly looked hostile or unfriendly:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum35/HTML/000921.html


I'll leave this well alone, and go back to watching the Melbourne Cup result, being replayed for the 5th time now! A fun day here in Australia.

------------------
~ Glen ~

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 11-06-2000).]

And to leave on a smiling note, I can just imagine DORIAN who wakes up any moment now (if he is in Switzerland still) and clears his email, and sees EIGHTEEN (so far!) e-mails from webflyer saying there has "been a response to his thread"!!!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

He will be wondering what the HECK went on whilst he was sleeping. And when he gets down to here, I suspect he will still be wondering! How about that hunch Dorian?? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

------------------
~ Glen ~

OZ, http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum35/HTML/000317.html

Interesting. Hardly the "shoot out at the OK Corral" tho! Hey Cigarmanwe have had MUCH more 'flamethrower grade 9' stoushes than that one! And lived to tell the tales. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
~ Glen ~

we (doc, Rudi et al.) did 'agree' do delete some of the earliest doc-NW-'rest-of-the-FlyerTalk World' - disputes from the board 'years ago'. I am glad that we really did delete those postings otherwise I guess they would be brought forward again and again.

I understand that we can't delete these 'historic happenings' from evrybodies memory (and heart), but I think it makes little sense to publicly still refer to 'those times/fights'. Forget it please!

MJW (an OMNI-award-winner for her valued contributions and her 'helping arm' on NW-behalf) is, for sure, most welcome to our board!

Amen, Rudi.

I have never understood the interest in beating dead horses or awakening sleeping dogs or children.

I too am glad Mary Joe is thinking of coming back to our boards. I have NOT used her or fly Northwest but any imput is helpful.

Plus since she's an OMNI award winner, let's leave her be. OK?>

OH on the moderator issue, if asked I will decline because I don't need the stress or the unwanted attacks. And there are other people who appear to be seen as more important and more knowledgeable.

I can help people on a one-to-one basis, free from flaming, and I have in the past and will in the future.

You can all decide if moderators are needed. I'm staying clear of this )and other) cat fights.

Hi MJW - you may remember my previous handle pgupta011. You truly were a great resource to the NW board, and I am very sorry that you felt harassed here. Let this serve as a reminder to all FTers to treat the company reps here with all due respect.

Amen to that.

The issue arises again:

"...Either that or implement moderated forums...

PLEASE!..."

-Kokonutz
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/000775.html

Any further thoughts on the "moderator" issue? Or alterations of previous thought?

Will this truly "solve" FT's "problems"?

Standards would be nice.

Who are the moderators going to be? What is the criteria for moderator selection?

Randy, thanks so much for instituting this. It will make FlyerTalk a better place.

Let me says this, before I get to know who will be moderating, as I don't want to 'offend' any one (selected as moderator) afterwards.

I am very sceptical about moderating the board (by others than Randys people himeself, even then I was/am sceptical).

I very much doubt, that any moderator can have the ability/SENSIBILITY to moderate/getting-adjusted critical postings from Flyertalkers coming from other cultures/backgrounds/mother-language-regions than North America.

Do you remember, when, in the early times of Flyertalk, a poor North American censorship on this board eliminated our japanese colleague because he used his home-airport in his name: '***uoka'?

In Switzerland my ancestors killed all dictators/kings/emperors starting in 1291. I don't support and will not applaud the intronisation of new moderators/dictators in my 'daily cyberspace-life' on Flyertalkboard.

greetings from the Alps (where we don't even let our Presidents to 'rule'longer than 12 months in a row). All the power to the people, as little power to the 'rulers'/moderators as absolutely necessary!

Thanks again for your attention to these issues Randy! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

"Our goal is to first establish a
set of standards and responsibility for any moderator to adhere to before introducing."

Sounds as if the time has come!

What Rudi said.

I agree completely with Rudi

I also agree with Rudi.

I don't think you will see moderation as censorship. Rather the moderators will play more of a housekeeping and peace keeping role. To keep discussion on topic, and to generate new discussion, to possibly take the time to orgainze an airline chat session for instance.

Additionally, neturallity [the Swiss way http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ] would have to prevail as well.

On one hand, I agree with Rudi (because he told me I was supposed to agree with him). http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

On the other hand, I think there is always room for improvement in the level of civility on the boards. I think we should all be moderators, and we should all start with moderating our own language, emotions and responses.

The thing that makes Flyer Talk so exciting to me is the fact that we are so different from one another, with different backgrounds, native languages, experiences, religions, philosophies and outlooks (some of us are even different sexes) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif --there is so much for us to learn from one another.

In order to maximize those learning possibilities, however, we must all exercise great care to make sure we truly understand each others' real meaning and intent. Sometimes that might mean reining in our emotional initial response and taking time to really listen to what another is trying to say.

It might mean that we have to work a little extra hard to be a little more patient, gentle, understanding, kind, trusting, gracious and truly curious and anxious to learn more--all characteristics which we can all use a little more of anyway.

And on those occasions when things might go a little sideways, what's wrong each of us acting as a moderator and privately e-mailing the party who has raised our concerns and politely discussing the situation with him or her.

I am sure that all of us acting as moderators of ourselves, will solve almost all possible problems that could arise hereon.

I'm not necessarily opposed to moderators, as long as it is more of a bully pulpit to encourage civility, and only very sparingly used to keep people on topic if a tangent arises.

If something is CLEARLY in the wrong forum to begin with, then a reminder (maybe a lock on the thread) would be OK with me.

As for deleting someone's posts, there must be some solid guidelines developed for that, with a VERY high offense (profanity, etc.) needed to warrant such action. Also, these should be clearly marked as "Deleted by moderator due to *****." Even in these cases, probably editing offensive posts would be a better idea.

Oh, I forgot the point that led me to post in the first place! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I have the say the FlyerTalk Community should be the LAST forum that should have a moderator, not one of the first. It is about us, for good or bad. After all, there has to be a legitimate place for people air grievances about other FTers, although they should do it in a more restrained way than is often the practice.

I would have to agree with Motnot. I think the "general" forums require the least moderation, as their generality allows for more freedom.

Moderators (IMHO) are needed much more in the airline and hotel specific forums, where many a fight has errupted over the last year, and off-topic and inappropriate comments really detract from the directions of the forum.

We've seen ethnicities questioned, airlines policies misstated, people challenged and harassed for posting legitmate opinions, hundreds of frivolous, misplaced posts and outright flame wars. For the many that have reduced theit Flyertalk time to just the "meat" of the issues, the specific forums are the ones needing a level head to keep them on track.

I agree with Rudi. While I agree with moderation, I am also skeptical about someone other than Randy's staff doing the moderation.

motnot:
I respectfully disagree. Online conversations go on tangents, just as verbal ones do - and that is something that is pretty neat. It is only when the thread goes on a destructive/offensive tangent that I think the moderator should step in.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a moderator be surgical in editing when possible. For example, if someone posts a message where only a sentence or two is destructive/offensive, remove that sentence, but leave the rest intact.

Of course, defining "offensive/destructive" is an argument unto itself.

And as far Randy entrusting our members rather than a paid member of his staff, I don't have a problem with it.

(1) Randy already carries enough of the fiscal burden for FT - paying an employee to moderate just adds to the expense.

(2) It keeps a little more independence. While some may not be happy with Randy's laissez-faire approach to FT when the flame wars break out, I believe a BIG reason that FT brings so many diverse points of view together is that it is NOT inhabited by yes-men/yes-women, seeking to curry Randy's favor.

(3) There is no shortage of FT'ers who can do the job. There are a lot of objective folks here.

And if this will be done via democratic process, I nominate Punki! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Jon, I think you respectfully agree with me. I did say "very sparingly" used to stop tangents. I like tangents, too.

I guess I have a different take on moderators because I am a moderator on a different board, Sheryl's board on priceline tips.

I agree with Punki that we should all moderate ourselves. Unfortunately, not everybody agrees with Punki... which I've learned by reading her thoughtful posts is usually a stupid thing not to do.

A moderator should not edit posts unless they are profane, or give out information such as the UA 1K telephone number or a FTer's home address or frequent flier number. I hate the autocensor on UBB, because it appears to only censor American phrases, but in all contexts including non-American contexts.

If a post is offensive in the moderator's opinion, the moderator should add a reply explaining his/her opinion, and cc the overall Administrator, in this case Randy.

The concept of "American" vs. "Global" standards of offensiveness... I find that very troubling. I need to think about it some more. At the very least, Randy should use it as guidance in selecting a set of moderators.

Posts about illegal tactics are a trickier one. We've had a couple of them about deliberately using expired credit cards. Another example is that some people may consider award selling illegal, some may not. Since the moderator isn't judge or jury, the moderator should only point out his/her belief, and again contact the administrator about whether the thread should be locked.

Meandering threads... well, they happen and are often useful. Still, a moderator should at least chime in and remind everybody that they're off tangent and that maybe it would help the rest of the FT community if a new thread was started.

The bigger job of a moderator is to help out newbies. You know, the folks that get electronically yelled at when they post a question that's asked 15 times a year, or that post a general question in FT Community because they don't know any better.

Moderators should welcome newbies with a reply to the thread, and suggest that they reply to the current Who We All Are thread as well as reading any FAQ.

I don't think moderators will hurt FT if they do not abuse their powers. I hope that Randy will select a global mix of FTers of sufficient moral competence "intuitively obvious to even the most casual of observers" that fear of abuse will be non-existent.

But, I don't know if moderators are the panacea that some people think they will be.

I crave discipline.

I've heard there is no shortage of websites available to satisfy your cravings... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Ran into this thread again! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Dorian

------------------
The Global Lounge Project - open source airline lounge listings - managed by Dorian
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel tips - managed by Catman, Shareholder, Rudi & Dorian
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart - by Blondebomber

An interesting quote from Randy from just after I joined FT:

July 8, 1999

"Part of the decision was a review of how others run their boards. We've been intrigued by the "volunteer" system that AOL has, where these volunteers devote some of their time helping and guiding others, and serving somewhat as deputies to view content as it's posted for proper reference. We think we can build that network of volunteers because we've seen an inordinate number of people show real care and understanding of what FT is all about."

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000034.html

Dorian

[This message has been edited by Dorian (edited 03-25-2001).]

Just thought that with the four year anniversary of the birth of moderators on FT fast approaching, I'd bring forth an early thread concerning their possible eventual use here. Perhaps it will help serve as a decent history lesson? ;)

With great thanks to all our current moderators, who IMHO, (perhaps but for a precious few), do an truly outstanding job! :)

Thanks to you! :)

-Mark