Flyertalk has grown and become very well respected over time. There are many signs of this. I won't mention all of them but a few are:
*Posters to this board are contacted by members of the media for opinions on travel related subjects;
*Executives of loyalty programs recognize Flyertalk, and some have been willing to chat with us on the boards or in chat sessions;
*At the PIP, airlines provided gift bags to attendees?;
*Flyertalk receives a large number of hits, has grown, and receives posts from all around the world;
*etc.

This is all good in a way. We can share ideas, experiences, and information with each other. Consumers become more empowered, and we can compare our experiences with others. Many experiences, for sure. Did you get that unpublished targetted promotion? Do you usually have to pay the change fee? Do you get "double upgraded?"

Yet does this have a darker side, from the perspective of the consumer / frequent flyer? Do the airlines and other programs monitor these boards, and use the vast information we provide them at no cost to take action against agents who do us favors?

There have been many hints of this posibility:
*Someone writes a trip report, and mentions that the airline agent did not collect an upgrade cert on an international trip. Someone then warns them to edit the post.

*Someone starts a thread to talk about experiences they have had at different airline facilities. They mention that certain people waive rules, and certain people are more by the book. They too are warned to edit the post for fear that the "nice agents" will get in trouble.

*How about if a passenger reports that an agent waived the Saturday night stay rule for them?

*What if a passenger reports that a certain hub airline club almost always waives the change fee, where as the club on the adjacent concourse always collects it. Would the airline use this to "correct" the situation? (This has not happened, but its a good hypothetical)
*There was a situation where NW sent out an unmarked post card to get Platinum status. A Flyertalker scanned in the card, and many people faxed it into NW in hopes of that ever ellusive Platinum card. NW called your organization, and a staff member posted that NW would not be honoring these Platinum post cards.

Do you have any inside information as to how the airlines use these boards to close loopholes, and elliminate certain passenger friendly practices which the airlines accountants may frown on? Perhaps there is no way to know the extent that this happens. I mean the airlines don't care about one change fee, or a missed domestic upgrade. But what about those pax who were not asked for an international upgrade coupon? Or the pax who was protected on another airline because they themselves missed a flight on a restricted ticket?

A second question is what should we do about this. We could all stop posting our real world experiences, so that the airline bean counters don't put a stop to some of the few good things people may have. Or we could continue to post and tell each other what really happens, but never know if we are shooting ourselves and those agents that help us in the foot?

These questions seem to apply more to airlines rather than other kinds of loyalty programs. E.g. more discretionary situations seem to involve flights, rather than hotels, credit cards, etc. I'm interested in both Randy's opinion, as well as other posters to this board.

Perhaps the answer is that we must be vague in our reports and accounts. Perhaps not mentioning cities, airline, flight#, etc. But the more we do this, the less helpful the board is to other travelers and the programs alike.

well,
[*]whenever I did doubt if the/my information, in the long run, could harm FlyerTalkers interests more then help, then I just gave a 'harmless hint' on the board and the details then were exchanged by private emails (example LH loophole) and in person at FlyerTalkers get-togethers.[*]when exchanging 'delicate' informations by email, I did limit the recipients to 'coleagues' I more or less knew and did trust that they also knew how to treat confidential 'news'.[*]often, very often, I was sure that the airlines did already know about loopholes or 'extensive' interpretations, and then I went right on the board with it, so that 'as long as it lasts' as many FlyerTalkers as possible were able to decide themselves if the wanted to 'join the band--waggon'.[*]the profits of information-sharing on FlyerTalk-board, and making many personal friends and experiencing many different personalities, and my constant curiosity to learn and get to know other 'crazy, addicted' FrequentFliers, for me, outweights by far the constant potential risks that 'a loophole' an 'extensive use of some offer/coupon/etc/etc' could disappear sooner than later by being posted here. [*]If we become to nerveous, to restricted with infos, than the FlyerTalk-Board interest would just fade away. And that would be, for me, the bigger loss than some disappearing loopholes (that I wouldn't know and use anyway probably, if this Board wouldn't fascinate me anymore.

Long life to our board and to our community!

jetsetter,

This is a very thoughtful if not well-considered issue. I can only answer from a Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide and Starwood Preferred Guest point of view in the capacity of being the assigned �lurker� for them. I personally do not monitor the message board for signs of loopholes, cheating, or for any other purpose than to provide a higher level of customer service to our members and other guests who post there. I have never reported any such loophole to anyone. Neither has anyone from the Corporate Office in White Plains asked me to do so. Having said this, I cannot speak for anyone else who may be monitoring the message board from Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide and Starwood Preferred Guest at any other vantage point. If there are others within the company lurking the Starwood message board (and I have to believe there are), they do not make their presence/influence known to me in the way that you suggest. Whether or not they move to close any loopholes they become aware of is simply unknown to me. I would say that the �lurkers� who regularly make their presence known to this community are more interested in improving the customer service and guest satisfaction than closing a deficiency which may have been left open surreptitious beneficial opportunities for our members. Frankly, I don�t have the time to devote myself to this either. As I joked to cigarman once, either I�m going to have to quit having a day off or you guys (gals) are going to have to quit staying with us over the weekend when I do. Please consider my presence on the Starwood message board as a customer service benefit and not a threat to the exchange of ideas and opinions.

I know your main concern is specifics in airline frequent flyer programs, but I wanted to give you my perspective from the hotel end. I will say this though; Flyer Talk has definitely grabbed the interest of everyone whose business is travel-related. It is a great forum that has really benefited everyone concerned - travelers, airlines, hotels, travel agencies, etc. If this forum were to go away or become disused, another would very likely take its place. Once discovered, I�m sure the same concerns you mention here would eventually become an issue there as well. For now it seems prudent to give as much information as possible when posting while keeping in mind that the travel industry is watching. Sensitive subjects or information could be exchanged via private e-mails if there is an e-mail account on your Flyer Talk profile or if Randy decides to set up mailboxes for everyone on the web site.

Best regards,

William R. Sanders
Specialist, E-Communications Department
Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide

[email protected]

I have benefitted from occasional "rule-bending" by ticket and gate agents, especially when I had status on "X" airline several years ago. (I have no airline status at the moment.) In almost all cases, favors were done for me without my asking; I had gotten to know a certain city ticket agent, and he would do what he could for me. It was sort of understood that this was "between us": he knew that I was a leisure flyer, usually travelling alone, and buying the cheapest tix available; so once in a while he came up with a seat when the fare class I wanted was "sold out," etc. (I'm not trying to imply that as a leisure flyer I'm entitled to more favors, or anything like that; however, if others feel that way and want to help me out, I won't turn them down.)

I was grateful for what I got, and in exchange I did not mention his name specifically to friends (didn't want to get him in potential trouble), but did mention the good treatment I got from airline "X." Also, another way I "gave back" was to send commendation letters to agents' supervisors, commenting on an agent's good service without giving specifics such as, "This person didn't collect my int'l. upgrade certificate! That was great!!"

Anyway, I'm grateful for this board, and all the hints, loopholes, strategies, and bent-rules I've read about (most of which I won't use, but it's nice to know about). Whatever I've learned in almost 30 years of flying, I'd be happy to share with FTers with the exception of a couple of things I'd rather keep to myself. After all, one should never tell all one's secrets.

This is certainly the rub. How do you share your good fortunes and "finds" with the community without getting them removed by the helpful representatives from the hotels and airlines that visit our board.

I honestly cannot fault any of the "lurkers" if they use the information here to close loopholes... didn't that happen last year on the Hilton board?

I am not sure we can have it both ways. We are quick to go to our board "angels" when we need their intervention or a rule bent but then complain when they actually apply the rules as they were intended.

Just my two cents... wait, that will get me a mile somewhere!!!

William

Sadly, almost nothing useful to most of us would ever get posted on FT if we all thought this way. I think Rudi (as usual) made a fine and intelligent assessment above. And I thank Starwood Lurker for this re-assuring posting. He and Adam Burke from Hilton are visible, transparent, front line representatives of thier organisations, and are immemsely helpful to all those here who patronise them. For any of us to ENCOURAGE OR ENDORSE airline or Hotel lurkers to read these board and then close down any neat loopholes we might find and mutually share disappoints me greatly. Takes all types.



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~ Glen ~

I would be interested to look at an analysis of the last 2-3 years of posts on FT and compare them with the changes made to each airline/hotel program.

For instance... for the longest time we Delta flyers raved about how great the Systemwide Upgrades were and how we had little to no trouble using them. Now they're gone.

While some might say: why then take away an appreciated perk that keeps flyers loyal, a bean counter might realize that we're not having trouble getting upgrade seats, so why not lessen the mileage liability and lose the SWU.

I would be shocked if there wasn't someone officially unofficially watching these boards at every company for which there's a forum.

Companies waste so much money organizing "focus groups" which tend to be made up more of people looking to make $50-$150 and who have time to burn than people who actually know and/or care about the product they're being paid to discuss.

Here, each and everyone of us, disects the minutiae of these programs to a level greater, perhaps, than those who make the rules themselves. (The electronic HK-49 Upgrade thread at UA for one.)

This is an extraordiany resource beyond loopholes and I could see a model where the airlines and hotels would be charged for access to the information and opinions we share here.

It seems to me, though, with the exception of Starwood (and a few others in limited capacities) the companies are not interested in interacting with FlyerTalkers and don't care about our concerns unless they are their own. Witness www.saveskymiles.com , once a fantastic achievement, now a sinking ship that's broken an old adage in the process.

(EDITED FOR EMBARESSING GRAMMER ERRORS--though I'm sure they're our moor )

[This message has been edited by the scribbler (edited 02-22-2001).]

The golden rule is "Think before you post."

Discretion is key IMHO. It's nice to share tips or "loopholes," but consider what could happen if the "cat gets out of the bag" and some airline/hotel/other company sees it.

Next thing you know: loophole is closed. The program then could come along and close others.

I have benefitted a few times from travel loopholes. I would not post them.

I know of secrets of travel loopholes. I am told secrets from Flyertalkers. I on't post them.

(if it's really good I share with my close Flyertalk friends but ask them to please keep it confidential.)

FLyertalkers don't have to know EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON!

Three cheers to Starwood Lurker!

I know this feeling. Last year, I flew in Envoy and they didn't collect my Systemwide Upgrades on USAirways. In my trip report initially I posted that fact; then I removed it; then I added it back in; then I removed it. There was a discussion about not collecting SWUs, and I almost replied there too.

In the end it doesn't matter (which is why I'm posting here) since I was not able to use that systemwide again anyway

I agree with "three cheers for Starwood Lurker". This guy deserves an award for the exceptional level of service he has delivered to members of FlyerTalk. One hopes he will be on hand when Starwood takes the Freddie for best hotel program this year.

I second what William has said. A lot of quirky things have been reported in the Starwood section: Free Friday credit for award stays, upgrades for Preferred members, bonus points awarded that, in retrospect, should not have been awarded, etc. These things will happen. I've always been of the opinion that, as long as people who didn't benefit from these errors didn't act as if they had somehow been cheated, it was a non-issue. Discretion in reporting these unexpected gifts seems to be a sensible precaution.

Jae

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"Hang up my haishirt, put my scourge in place, and pray, Laurent, for Heaven's perpetual grace."

Moliere, "Tartuffe"

[This message has been edited by Jae (edited 02-23-2001).]

wharvey said: (fairly predictably for him I might commment!)
I honestly cannot fault any of the "lurkers" if they use the information here to close loopholes ... didn't that happen last year on the Hilton board?

Glen,

Not sure why you said "fairly predictably for him I might comment!" to my comment. Certainly appeared to be an insult that is not appreciated!

Why is it we are all happy when the rules are bent for us... or someone forgets to take a certificate... but then get so "bent out of shape" when the rules are followed?

I am so glad we have our "lurkers" and sure we have many more that are not identified. But we cannot be naive enough to believe that there is not some loyalty of the lurkers to the company that employ them.

Do they go back with everthing that happens on this board? I doubt it... or there would be many more complaints. Just search and think about how many people talk about certificates not being taken... and points being given when not deserved. The lurkers could easily deduce (through emails and other means) who these people are and correct the "oversights". But I do not believe that is happenning. I admire the stance of the Starwood Lurker and have personal experience with Adam and Hilton. I believe they are providing a much needed liasion between us and their programs.

But, we all have to remember, they work for their companies... not us.

William

Jae. Congratulations on your first post on FT from Austin TX. And nice to see you are very supportive of the Starwood Lurker and his efforts.

Would you just by chance, be this one and the same "JAE" :

Jae Knowlton,
Operations Supervisor, Starwood Preferred Guest,
Austin Texas.

Why I ask is I had a nice email from that same Jae late last year, who sourced my contact info from my FT profile, so the name and address stuck in my mind. You say you are a "Business Analyst" in your profile - for Starwood perhaps?

In which case I really think your post is rather self-serving to say the least, and pretty misleading. Post as "Jae from Starwood" or whatever by all means, we would welcome that input. However the post above, on the face of it, looks just like a newbie FlyerTalker enthusing about Starwood. We all not all like wharvey and endorse and support corporate lurkers closing down loopholes. At least if they openly post, it is nice to know who they are!

I think I'm gonna check the UA board now to see if a "JIM" from Chicago is raving about how good UA has been lately.


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~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 02-23-2001).]

Ozstamps, you're a fine one to talk about hiding your true identity... have you already forgotten all your fake aliasis?
Jae never claimed not to work for Starwood. He's a great guy... leave him alone. I hope your account "accidently" loses all it's points. Quit being rude to the people helping us... bonehead.
P.S Why don't you post as JANE JET FROM OZ...or Molson Miler from OZ.

[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 02-23-2001).]