My post @ BFT about someone commercializing BFT information on EBAY removed by Sheryl
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I've been reading with interest the threads about BFT here on FlyerTalk. Like others, I've always considered BFT a super reference. However, I have now come across what seems to be an ethical issue, which leaves me kind of scratching my head asking "why?".
I just posted about half an hour ago on BFT something along these lines:
"I work at a large law firm and I'm somewhat known as a travel guru. This week a colleague contacted me to ask me about the legitimacy of a purchase she made on EBay from seller "in31122". I examined the receipt for her "hotel purchase" and the chain of emails, and turns out, this EBay seller is simply re-selling Priceline rooms at a high mark-up. The chain of emails reveals that the EBay seller is simply 'commercializing' Bidding for Travel information. In fact, the lists of 'promised' hotels are obviously just cut-and-pasted from biddingfortravel.com! See:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EBWA%3AIT&rd=1
My friend is worried that her booking might be in question as clearly, the re-selling of Priceline rooms violates the Priceline user agreement (against commercial uses and resales) and also violates state law on travel seller licensure. Further, the listing would appear to be against EBay's 'choice travel listing' policy and also, the seller does not list his or her "'tate seller of travel license number' in the disclosure, as is required by EBay. However, my colleague's emails to EBay's Safe Harbor division have, so far, gone unanswered.
This worries me on several levels, not the least of which is the legitimacy of this community. Can we allow people to harvest the information here for commercial purposes on EBay? Is there anything the members of this community can or should do in this situation to protect our community?"
About ten minutes after this was posted, Sheryl deleted my message and posted "your post has been removed as inappropriate subject matter for posting at biddingfortravel.com."
About five minutes after that, she completely deleted my entire thread, and sent me this email:
"Information like this should be sent to me privately through the
Contact Administrator link. For various reasons, we do not want
postings about Ebay on BiddingForTravel.com.
Sheryl"
I asked for more clarification and received this response:
"As noted in our Posting Guidelines, we reserve the right to remove links to any website.
We do not promote Ebay on BiddingForTravel.com. If anyone has an issue
with Ebay's rules being violated, that is between the user an Ebay.
Sheryl"
This makes me very suspicious of the motives of BFT. Why in the world would BFT rush to delete a post with valuable information trying to help out the BFT community as a whole?
Is BFT harvesting all of the information we put there and selling Priceline rooms through EBay themselves? Is there any other reason people here can think of that Sheryl would have rushed to censor me so quickly???
I'm sure I will be banished for questioning her, but this seems very weird to me, and I'll risk my BFT membership by asking what people here think about this situation.
I just posted about half an hour ago on BFT something along these lines:
"I work at a large law firm and I'm somewhat known as a travel guru. This week a colleague contacted me to ask me about the legitimacy of a purchase she made on EBay from seller "in31122". I examined the receipt for her "hotel purchase" and the chain of emails, and turns out, this EBay seller is simply re-selling Priceline rooms at a high mark-up. The chain of emails reveals that the EBay seller is simply 'commercializing' Bidding for Travel information. In fact, the lists of 'promised' hotels are obviously just cut-and-pasted from biddingfortravel.com! See:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EBWA%3AIT&rd=1
My friend is worried that her booking might be in question as clearly, the re-selling of Priceline rooms violates the Priceline user agreement (against commercial uses and resales) and also violates state law on travel seller licensure. Further, the listing would appear to be against EBay's 'choice travel listing' policy and also, the seller does not list his or her "'tate seller of travel license number' in the disclosure, as is required by EBay. However, my colleague's emails to EBay's Safe Harbor division have, so far, gone unanswered.
This worries me on several levels, not the least of which is the legitimacy of this community. Can we allow people to harvest the information here for commercial purposes on EBay? Is there anything the members of this community can or should do in this situation to protect our community?"
About ten minutes after this was posted, Sheryl deleted my message and posted "your post has been removed as inappropriate subject matter for posting at biddingfortravel.com."
About five minutes after that, she completely deleted my entire thread, and sent me this email:
"Information like this should be sent to me privately through the
Contact Administrator link. For various reasons, we do not want
postings about Ebay on BiddingForTravel.com.
Sheryl"
I asked for more clarification and received this response:
"As noted in our Posting Guidelines, we reserve the right to remove links to any website.
We do not promote Ebay on BiddingForTravel.com. If anyone has an issue
with Ebay's rules being violated, that is between the user an Ebay.
Sheryl"
This makes me very suspicious of the motives of BFT. Why in the world would BFT rush to delete a post with valuable information trying to help out the BFT community as a whole?
Is BFT harvesting all of the information we put there and selling Priceline rooms through EBay themselves? Is there any other reason people here can think of that Sheryl would have rushed to censor me so quickly???
I'm sure I will be banished for questioning her, but this seems very weird to me, and I'll risk my BFT membership by asking what people here think about this situation.
Sheryl,
May I repost the information if I refrain from using a link, therefore staying within the posting guidelines?
Thesilb
---
Sheryl wrote:
No. As I said in my first message "we do not want postings about Ebay on BiddingForTravel.com."
Please do not re-post it.
---
Sheryl,
The act of secreting information about how someone is using your enterprise to commit an illegal activity in many jurisdictions, mine included, likely makes you an accesory to the crime. BFT information is being used to commit a crime. I would think you would take this more seriously than you do.
Thesilb
May I repost the information if I refrain from using a link, therefore staying within the posting guidelines?
Thesilb
---
Sheryl wrote:
No. As I said in my first message "we do not want postings about Ebay on BiddingForTravel.com."
Please do not re-post it.
---
Sheryl,
The act of secreting information about how someone is using your enterprise to commit an illegal activity in many jurisdictions, mine included, likely makes you an accesory to the crime. BFT information is being used to commit a crime. I would think you would take this more seriously than you do.
Thesilb
I don't understand the nature of your complaint. BFT says that discussions about eBay are out-of-bounds for their board, so the topics get removed.
Your suggestion that BFT management is somehow complicit in some sort of "crime" by removing your posts strikes me as absurd.
If you believe that a crime that has been committed (and may be ongoing), it seems to me that the proper response is to contact an appropriate law enforcement agency rather than to make a post on a commercial travel board.
But wouldn't you already know that, if you "work at a large law firm"?
Your suggestion that BFT management is somehow complicit in some sort of "crime" by removing your posts strikes me as absurd.
If you believe that a crime that has been committed (and may be ongoing), it seems to me that the proper response is to contact an appropriate law enforcement agency rather than to make a post on a commercial travel board.
But wouldn't you already know that, if you "work at a large law firm"?
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Considering the number of novice (even first-time) Priceline users who are sent to BFT by referral (such as from cruise line and general travel boards), mentions of eBay on BFT would only serve to present those new users with an alternative to BFT and its (infamous) A-B link.
thesilb, two quick points. It's not surprising to me that BFT wouldn't let you post that. BFT keyboards have an oversized delete key in the middle, so it's more surprising when something doesn't get deleted.
As for the crime concern, I doubt very much there is any crime here by anyone. The idea that anyone at BFT is committing a crime by "secreting" another's criminal activity is more than a little silly.
I should know. I once worked for a large law firm.
As for the crime concern, I doubt very much there is any crime here by anyone. The idea that anyone at BFT is committing a crime by "secreting" another's criminal activity is more than a little silly.
I should know. I once worked for a large law firm.
I did some investigating on who the mysterious eBayer is and I don't think it is
Sherryl.
However, it is certainly a BFT member. Check out
http://b6.ezboard.com/bpricelineande...le?gid=in31122
Sherryl.
However, it is certainly a BFT member. Check out
http://b6.ezboard.com/bpricelineande...le?gid=in31122
thesilb, did you contact the eBay seller in31122 with your concerns?
Oh, by the way, not only is there an eBay seller and a BFT member with that handle, there is a FlyerTalker as well. (Just noticed a post by him/her on the United forum.)
Oh, by the way, not only is there an eBay seller and a BFT member with that handle, there is a FlyerTalker as well. (Just noticed a post by him/her on the United forum.)
KathyWdrf, good idea. I didn't think to check if there might be a FT or BFT member by that name. I don't have an EBay account so unless I sign up I don't suppose I could contact the person that way.
On reflection, I can see that it is probably far-fetched to implicate BFT in criminal activity, I got caught up in the heat of the moment. What is annoying is that BFT has this great data set, its somewhat of a community asset in that "we" collectively built the data - certainly myself included on many, many occasions - so there is some sense of community asset, community ownership there. BFT is the only people who can police its unfair use. Then this person comes along and, in my opinion, unfairly uses what is a community asset by selling on EBay the data (basically). I, as a user and contributor to this community, this data-set, I post my concerns - and - they're deleted.
The community stadard is that I can't even have some speech bandwidth to state my case and alert other community members as to what's going on and try to see if there's anything collectively we can do. As I said, I don't use EBay so I don't really know what could be done, I do know my colleague wrote to "Safe Harbor" with them and nothing has been done yet. In any event, I was turning to the BFT community looking for some help, and I really thought I was doing a community service by letting my fellow community members know what is going on.
For that, I get my helpful message to the community censored, and now, I am banned. And Sheryl puts the ban as an IP address ban so everyone where I work is banned, too. That's 4,500 people.
For someone trying to "help out" and maintain the integrity of the BFT community, that seems pretty ludicrous. I bet "in31122" probably is NOT banned, while I am.
On reflection, I can see that it is probably far-fetched to implicate BFT in criminal activity, I got caught up in the heat of the moment. What is annoying is that BFT has this great data set, its somewhat of a community asset in that "we" collectively built the data - certainly myself included on many, many occasions - so there is some sense of community asset, community ownership there. BFT is the only people who can police its unfair use. Then this person comes along and, in my opinion, unfairly uses what is a community asset by selling on EBay the data (basically). I, as a user and contributor to this community, this data-set, I post my concerns - and - they're deleted.
The community stadard is that I can't even have some speech bandwidth to state my case and alert other community members as to what's going on and try to see if there's anything collectively we can do. As I said, I don't use EBay so I don't really know what could be done, I do know my colleague wrote to "Safe Harbor" with them and nothing has been done yet. In any event, I was turning to the BFT community looking for some help, and I really thought I was doing a community service by letting my fellow community members know what is going on.
For that, I get my helpful message to the community censored, and now, I am banned. And Sheryl puts the ban as an IP address ban so everyone where I work is banned, too. That's 4,500 people.
For someone trying to "help out" and maintain the integrity of the BFT community, that seems pretty ludicrous. I bet "in31122" probably is NOT banned, while I am.
Just to clarify, I do believe there is criminal activity going underway on the part of in31122. I believe civilly, there's certainly breach of contract with respect to the Priceline user agreement. Criminally, in California at least you need to be a licensed travel seller to sell travel, meaning you need to post a bond and meet the licensure criteria. I would assume that this casual user probably is not a licensed travel seller (if they were, I would suspect they would have posted their bond number in their EBay listing, as would be required by law and also by EBay policy). I would also suspect there are some criminal tax implications as this person probably is not submitting occupancy taxes to all the proper jurisdictions.
I reiterate, it was certainly over the top to try to make a case that BFT might be implicated, but undreneath, I think in31122 is certainly carrying on a criminal enterprise along the above lines and I think this is something which threatens the BFT community and the integrity of its data, and in any event, CERTAINLY was/is something worthy of discussion by the members who built the data set.
I reiterate, it was certainly over the top to try to make a case that BFT might be implicated, but undreneath, I think in31122 is certainly carrying on a criminal enterprise along the above lines and I think this is something which threatens the BFT community and the integrity of its data, and in any event, CERTAINLY was/is something worthy of discussion by the members who built the data set.
You've hit the nail squarely, thesilb: the actions of BFT do not seem to correspond well (or maybe at all) with their stated intentions and purposes. (I don't doubt that my comments in this thread may have been a bit excessive, as well.)
BFT clearly misunderstands how much they are losing by their OmniBanning. Very recently, I noticed a significant change in Priceline city boundaries, directly affecting one of the more notorious hotels in the Priceline stable. Because I am among The Banned, I obviously can't post the info on BFT, so their minions will have to continue to be in the dark. (If you're planning to bid on PL in one of the cities I've been known to talk about, feel free to send me mail for more info.)
BFT clearly misunderstands how much they are losing by their OmniBanning. Very recently, I noticed a significant change in Priceline city boundaries, directly affecting one of the more notorious hotels in the Priceline stable. Because I am among The Banned, I obviously can't post the info on BFT, so their minions will have to continue to be in the dark. (If you're planning to bid on PL in one of the cities I've been known to talk about, feel free to send me mail for more info.)
thesilb, consider it an honor to be banned from BFT. You've joined a most prestigious club, of which I am the president. If you need help accessing BFT via an anonymizer, just email me.
Now, as for this small-time Priceline reseller, what's the problem here? Let's put licensing aside for a moment. He looks to be offering a great deal to those who are unfamiliar with Priceline and BFT. Sure, everyone here would know how to cut him out of the loop and do better, but for the Net travel newbies out there, he's providing a useful service.
As for the licensing issue, perhaps he is violating some code somewhere. If he's delivering on what he promises to buyers, though, who cares? I guess he might be obliged to pay occupancy tax on the markup above what he pays Priceline (not sure about that), but we're not talking big bucks here.
In short, I see some benefit here and no harm.
Now, as for this small-time Priceline reseller, what's the problem here? Let's put licensing aside for a moment. He looks to be offering a great deal to those who are unfamiliar with Priceline and BFT. Sure, everyone here would know how to cut him out of the loop and do better, but for the Net travel newbies out there, he's providing a useful service.
As for the licensing issue, perhaps he is violating some code somewhere. If he's delivering on what he promises to buyers, though, who cares? I guess he might be obliged to pay occupancy tax on the markup above what he pays Priceline (not sure about that), but we're not talking big bucks here.
In short, I see some benefit here and no harm.
thesilb, how exactly is what the eBayer is doing criminal?
It looks to me that he/she is simply a clever person who found a business opportunity and is taking advantage of it. Out of curiousity I contact him with a few questions about his auction (in a role of an interested buyer) and he reponded within a few hours and very honestly.
And you know why he isn't banned from BFT? Because he doesn't post much there. If you want to read, go to BFT. If you want to post, go to BetterBidding.com .
It looks to me that he/she is simply a clever person who found a business opportunity and is taking advantage of it. Out of curiousity I contact him with a few questions about his auction (in a role of an interested buyer) and he reponded within a few hours and very honestly.
And you know why he isn't banned from BFT? Because he doesn't post much there. If you want to read, go to BFT. If you want to post, go to BetterBidding.com .
Quote:
BFT clearly misunderstands how much they are losing by their OmniBanning. Very recently, I noticed a significant change in Priceline city boundaries, directly affecting one of the more notorious hotels in the Priceline stable. Because I am among The Banned, I obviously can't post the info on BFT, so their minions will have to continue to be in the dark. (If you're planning to bid on PL in one of the cities I've been known to talk about, feel free to send me mail for more info.)
What cities do you talk about regularly?Originally Posted by wideman
You've hit the nail squarely, thesilb: the actions of BFT do not seem to correspond well (or maybe at all) with their stated intentions and purposes. (I don't doubt that my comments in this thread may have been a bit excessive, as well.)BFT clearly misunderstands how much they are losing by their OmniBanning. Very recently, I noticed a significant change in Priceline city boundaries, directly affecting one of the more notorious hotels in the Priceline stable. Because I am among The Banned, I obviously can't post the info on BFT, so their minions will have to continue to be in the dark. (If you're planning to bid on PL in one of the cities I've been known to talk about, feel free to send me mail for more info.)
wideman, if BFT had merely deleted the posts it didn't like on its site (rather than the omniban approach), it probably wouldn't have 50+ FTers taking shots at it on a regular basis. The IP address ban is so over-the-top, so silly and so childish that many of us (myself included) just can't help but ridicule BFT and its administrator as a hobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilb
The community stadard is that I can't even have some speech bandwidth to state my case and alert other community members as to what's going on and try to see if there's anything collectively we can do.
Welcome to the land of the banned thesilb. There is, in my opinion, a major flaw in the quote above. You refer to BFT as a "community" ... like FT is a community. Clearly BFT is not a communtiy ... but rather a business masquerading as a community. The reason BFT jumps on the posts it doesn't like .. and does so quickly ... is because their business depends on it. If they don't control what is posted ... and ban those who won't follow the rules of their business, they will upset Priceline and say goodbye to the afilliate revenue they get from Amazing Bargains. Why is it necessary for BFT to masquerade as a communtiy? Because they need the information they get from the members ... information that is given more freely if you believe you are posting to a "board" like Flyertalk ... where ideas are shared freely and your motivation for posting is to help other people just like you.
As for the Ebay auction item, I don't know the rules of Priceline but I suspect there is "user agreement clause" that states you can't resell items purchased on Priceline. The seller is not actually reselling items ... just auctioning off a service where they will jump through all the hoops to get you a hotel room at a good price. When they make the purchase I assume they will use your name? ... however will use their credit card? I am wondering what they will give you as a confirmation? I'm not sure there is anything illegal happening ... but would have to read the user agreements of both Priceline and Ebay to know for sure.
As to why BFT would not want anything about this posted on their site ... if I have my business hat on one would think it must be because they weighted the pros (more info to the BFT "members" ... and they would post more) and the cons (people might be annoyed someone is using their posted info on BFT to make a profit and therefore post less) and decide to keep the BFT members from hearing about it. In other words hide from members all info that might negatively affect the number of posts on BFT. Unfortunately I don't think they go through a business process like that ... I think they just don't know how to handle anything that falls outside of their business plan and just go for the "big delete key" - as was commented earlier. They decide to go the path of least resistance - and not take any chances.
Just my opinion.