Invol downgrade on a DONE4, compensation?
Dec 25, 2008 | 11:11 am
#1
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Invol downgrade on a DONE4, compensation?
Hey chaps, lets assume for a minute somebody is downgraded who holds a DONE4 ticket.
I bought the ticket through AA, now do they tend to bump down or do they ever bump up?
What compensation is the person entitled to if BA, AA, QF downgrade u on this type of ticket?
I bought the ticket through AA, now do they tend to bump down or do they ever bump up?
What compensation is the person entitled to if BA, AA, QF downgrade u on this type of ticket?
Dec 25, 2008 | 1:58 pm
#4
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Hi 747-444
Reading through these boards (both the BA and QF forums extensively) I have never heard of a bump-down on QF.
There are stories of invol bumps DOWN on BA... even after people have received their F or J or WT+ boarding cards, but these too are rare.
Compensation is hard to work out because of the multi-stage ticket, however, it would be reasonable (not saying you would actually get this or that the airlines will agree) to ask for the difference between the one way biz fare and the one way economy fare for that particular sector on which you were down graded.
Regards
lme ff
Reading through these boards (both the BA and QF forums extensively) I have never heard of a bump-down on QF.
There are stories of invol bumps DOWN on BA... even after people have received their F or J or WT+ boarding cards, but these too are rare.
Compensation is hard to work out because of the multi-stage ticket, however, it would be reasonable (not saying you would actually get this or that the airlines will agree) to ask for the difference between the one way biz fare and the one way economy fare for that particular sector on which you were down graded.
Regards
lme ff
Dec 25, 2008 | 2:29 pm
#5
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Dec 25, 2008 | 3:01 pm
#6
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Hi 747-444
Reading through these boards (both the BA and QF forums extensively) I have never heard of a bump-down on QF.
There are stories of invol bumps DOWN on BA... even after people have received their F or J or WT+ boarding cards, but these too are rare.
Compensation is hard to work out because of the multi-stage ticket, however, it would be reasonable (not saying you would actually get this or that the airlines will agree) to ask for the difference between the one way biz fare and the one way economy fare for that particular sector on which you were down graded.
Regards
lme ff
Reading through these boards (both the BA and QF forums extensively) I have never heard of a bump-down on QF.
There are stories of invol bumps DOWN on BA... even after people have received their F or J or WT+ boarding cards, but these too are rare.
Compensation is hard to work out because of the multi-stage ticket, however, it would be reasonable (not saying you would actually get this or that the airlines will agree) to ask for the difference between the one way biz fare and the one way economy fare for that particular sector on which you were down graded.
Regards
lme ff
My mother recently bought a JNB-PLZ-JNB ticket in J, the equipment changed and it only had Y so they gave her 2 complimentary J return tickets to anywhere in SA.
Dec 25, 2008 | 6:11 pm
#7
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BA in SA is a separate company (Comair), just licensing the BA brand; so their policies have nothing in common with the real BA policies. For Comair info (BA flights within SA), see http://www.comair.co.za/
Dec 25, 2008 | 11:38 pm
#8
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There is no reason why the airline which downgrades you can't give you a voucher. Compensation would be negotiable.
Forgot to mention in my original post that special rules apply to EU flights and EU carriers - if you are involuntarily downgraded on one of those, then you will be entitled to significant compensation provided the reason for the downgrade is within the control of the airline.
Regards
lme ff
Dec 26, 2008 | 2:01 am
#9
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It depends very much on the airline. On my current DONE4 + side trip I have 13 involuntary downgraded flights 
I'll post what compensation, if any, I get on my trip report.
One point I'm unclear on about EU rules, is whether a EU-marketed flight operated by a non-EU airline between 2 points outside EU is included in the EU rules.
I'll post what compensation, if any, I get on my trip report.
One point I'm unclear on about EU rules, is whether a EU-marketed flight operated by a non-EU airline between 2 points outside EU is included in the EU rules.
Dec 26, 2008 | 4:40 am
#10
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However, I believe the EU regulations relate to the operating carrier of any flight segment, not the ticketing carrier.
Note - The EU regulation specifically relates to:
- Any any flight operated by a carrier based in the EU (e.g. BA) and
- Any flight on any carrier departing from an EU port.
Dec 26, 2008 | 7:52 am
#11
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And -- wonder of wonders -- the cause of delays has dramatically changed in the past year (by an order of magnitude) for EU airlines. The causes under the control of the airline (and subject to compensation) have dropped to almost zero, while the causes not under the airline control (requiring no compensation) have risen (almost by the same amount, what a coincidence). The regulators have decided to look the other way, following BA's 3-engine 747 flight LAX-MAN (didn't quite have enough fuel to reach LHR) and the argument that rigorous enforcement of the EU compensation rules will lead to airlines operating flights in an unsafe condition just to avoid paying the compensation (for the LAX flight it would have been close to a million euros). All the "gray" area delays are now non-compensable.
The downgrade compensation is up to 75% of the purchased sector price. Of course this is the rub (the allocation of OWE ticket price to sectors is a trade secret). The law is summarized at
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l24173.htm
EU rights poster (airlines are supposed to display this at all gates, but I've rarely seen it): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_po..._poster_en.pdf
Enforcement and more info: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passengers/air/air_en.htm
As mentioned it specifically does not apply to agents, only to airlines regulated by the EU, so it would never apply to non-EU airline departing a non-EU city (even if arriving to an EU city), no matter how ticketed.
Downgrade is compensated at up to 75% of the sector price (of course this is a problem for OWE tickets as the sector price is a trade secret).
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l24173.htm
The downgrade compensation is up to 75% of the purchased sector price. Of course this is the rub (the allocation of OWE ticket price to sectors is a trade secret). The law is summarized at
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l24173.htm
EU rights poster (airlines are supposed to display this at all gates, but I've rarely seen it): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_po..._poster_en.pdf
Enforcement and more info: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passengers/air/air_en.htm
As mentioned it specifically does not apply to agents, only to airlines regulated by the EU, so it would never apply to non-EU airline departing a non-EU city (even if arriving to an EU city), no matter how ticketed.
Downgrade is compensated at up to 75% of the sector price (of course this is a problem for OWE tickets as the sector price is a trade secret).
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l24173.htm
Last edited by number_6; Dec 26, 2008 at 7:59 am
Dec 26, 2008 | 10:37 am
#12
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The regulators have decided to look the other way, following BA's 3-engine 747 flight LAX-MAN (didn't quite have enough fuel to reach LHR) and the argument that rigorous enforcement of the EU compensation rules will lead to airlines operating flights in an unsafe condition just to avoid paying the compensation (for the LAX flight it would have been close to a million euros).
14) As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating
air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases
where an event has been caused by extraordinary
circumstances which could not have been avoided even
if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances
may, in particular, occur in cases of political
instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with
the operation of the flight concerned, security risks,
unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that
affect the operation of an operating air carrier.
air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases
where an event has been caused by extraordinary
circumstances which could not have been avoided even
if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances
may, in particular, occur in cases of political
instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with
the operation of the flight concerned, security risks,
unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that
affect the operation of an operating air carrier.
Dec 26, 2008 | 2:24 pm
#13
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Posts: 968
Well OK I should have worded it better, not compensation but a flight voucher etc. I get offered a BA Gold Card each year but decline it, I prefer the bonus miles I earn when I reach AA plat.
OK let's say I am bumped down, instead of any financial compensation am I entitled to flight coupons say as a free return ticket etc, or is that what they tend to give and is it generally in the same class?
Oh my apologies for not adding, I am flying JNB-LHR on BA in J.
OK let's say I am bumped down, instead of any financial compensation am I entitled to flight coupons say as a free return ticket etc, or is that what they tend to give and is it generally in the same class?
Oh my apologies for not adding, I am flying JNB-LHR on BA in J.
Dec 26, 2008 | 5:15 pm
#14
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...OK let's say I am bumped down, instead of any financial compensation am I entitled to flight coupons say as a free return ticket etc, or is that what they tend to give and is it generally in the same class?
Oh my apologies for not adding, I am flying JNB-LHR on BA in J.
Oh my apologies for not adding, I am flying JNB-LHR on BA in J.
Dec 26, 2008 | 5:36 pm
#15
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... The regulators have decided to look the other way, following BA's 3-engine 747 flight LAX-MAN (didn't quite have enough fuel to reach LHR) and the argument that rigorous enforcement of the EU compensation rules will lead to airlines operating flights in an unsafe condition just to avoid paying the compensation (for the LAX flight it would have been close to a million euros). All the "gray" area delays are now non-compensable. ...
European judges have ruled that airlines cannot use technical malfunctions, arising from routine operations, as an excuse to avoid paying compensation to passengers whose flights are cancelled.
More here:
- Avionews
- http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/commu...cp080100en.pdf
- http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...7J0549:EN:HTML
Specific Ruling:
In its judgment of today, the Court finds that in the light of the specific conditions in which carriage by air takes place and the degree of technological sophistication of aircraft, air carriers are confronted as a matter of course in the exercise of their activity with various technical problems to which the operation of those aircraft inevitably gives rise. The resolution of a technical problem caused by failure to maintain an aircraft must therefore be regarded as inherent in the normal exercise of an air carrier’s activity. Consequently, technical problems which come to light during maintenance of aircraft or on account of failure to carry out such maintenance do not constitute, in themselves, ‘extraordinary circumstances’.
However, it is not ruled out that technical problems are covered by ‘exceptional circumstances’ to the extent that they stem from events which are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control. That would be the case, for example, in the situation where it was revealed by the manufacturer of the aircraft comprising the fleet of the air carrier concerned, or by a competent authority, that those aircraft, although already in service, are affected by a hidden manufacturing defect which impinges on flight safety. The same would hold for damage to aircraft caused by acts of sabotage or terrorism.
The Court states that, since not all extraordinary circumstances confer exemption, the onus is on the party seeking to rely on them to establish that, even if it had deployed all its resources in terms of staff or equipment and the financial means at its disposal, it would clearly not have been able – unless it had made intolerable sacrifices in the light of the capacities of its undertaking at the relevant time – to prevent the extraordinary circumstances with which it was confronted from leading to the cancellation of the flight. The fact that an air carrier has complied with the minimum rules on maintenance of an aircraft cannot in itself suffice to establish that that carrier has taken all reasonable measures so that it is relieved of its obligation to pay compensation.
However, it is not ruled out that technical problems are covered by ‘exceptional circumstances’ to the extent that they stem from events which are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control. That would be the case, for example, in the situation where it was revealed by the manufacturer of the aircraft comprising the fleet of the air carrier concerned, or by a competent authority, that those aircraft, although already in service, are affected by a hidden manufacturing defect which impinges on flight safety. The same would hold for damage to aircraft caused by acts of sabotage or terrorism.
The Court states that, since not all extraordinary circumstances confer exemption, the onus is on the party seeking to rely on them to establish that, even if it had deployed all its resources in terms of staff or equipment and the financial means at its disposal, it would clearly not have been able – unless it had made intolerable sacrifices in the light of the capacities of its undertaking at the relevant time – to prevent the extraordinary circumstances with which it was confronted from leading to the cancellation of the flight. The fact that an air carrier has complied with the minimum rules on maintenance of an aircraft cannot in itself suffice to establish that that carrier has taken all reasonable measures so that it is relieved of its obligation to pay compensation.
Last edited by serfty; Dec 26, 2008 at 6:03 pm