Oneworld Explorer Question
 

I am in the process of making some changes to a Oneworld Explorer ticket and I am banging up against the maximum number of segments. The ticket originated in Cairo and at the moment it finishes in Amman. The BA Agent I am dealing with is telling me that, athough I can finish in Amman, in order for the ticket to be valid, the last segment (which I am not flying) i.e. AMM/CAI must be taken into account within the 16 segments. That doesn't sound right to me - I've never heard of that before. Does anyone else have any experience with this ?

You are correct - agent is inventing a rule that doesn't exist.

While it is true that surface sectors DO count towards the 16-sector limit, this is only true in cases the open-jaw occurs between two flight sectors. In these cases an informational sector called an ARUNK is inserted in the ticket, and this consumes one of the 16 "coupons" allowed in the e-ticket. Since an open-jaw between Origin & Destination doesn't require an ARUNK, as long as rules permit the combination of origin/destination you've requested, you should be good to go.

Full list of acceptable open-jaws for origin/destination is in the rule 4(c), as follows
:


All that said: explaining to an agent that they are incorrect, and convincing them to accept that, well, this is easier said than done. Good Luck!

And, if you can include a land segment for the last segment, origin/destination restriction is almost meaningless.

You may ask the agent about
'Then, under your logic, can I do AMM-FRA-JFK-NRT-LHR//AMM, so practically, end at LHR ?'

The reason the agent insists on his/her interpretation is the seemingly poor wording of the rules: This implies it uses up a segment and elsewhere in the rules it clearly states 16 segments is the max allowed for the ticket. Try talking to the BA RTW Europe people in UK, they have knowledgeable agents there.

Definitely a case of HUACA in my opinion

While the fare rule is ambiguous, I have never heard of an agent trying to impose such a restrictionI personally have had four RTWs with origin-destination open jaws. All were 16 segment tickets (of course!). Never had a problem; not when purchasing and not when making changes.
And BTW, one of them was a BA-issued ticket

Thanks for your input guys. They are insistent ! And I am dealing with the BA RTW people in the UK.

However, I managed to re-route the rest of the ticket so as to save a sector on the way into the US. And optimise a few other elements so it works better too. As you say, explaining to someone that they are incorrect and convincing them to accept that is easier said than done. Actually the problem seems to be the fares people, not the agent. Apparently a manager in the fares department (who don't speak directly to customers) told the guy I was speaking to (on the gold executive club line) that he shouldn't be dealing with the ticket because it was too complicated for him. I wonder who it is I am supposed to be speaking to !

I will attack it again the next time I make changes to the ticket. I now have CAI-LHR-IAD-DFW-SYD-WLG-AKL-KUL-CMB-MLE-SGN-DOH//LHR-MCT-DOH-AMM. Lots of miles and tier points there !

By the way, one other thing I was told when trying to make this round of changes was that I can only have three 'Long Segments" in Europe/Middle East. That's why I have DOH/LHR in there as a surface sector. They are saying I can't fly it because I have already done CAI/LHR and I have LHR/MCT later in the ticket. However, that can't be right either, as I did DOH-WAW-DOH-LHR on a previous RTW ticket. Are they also wrong about this ?

This reminds me A LOT of the runaround I got back in 2015 when trying to get BA to change my ex-CPT ticket - see here https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25576609-post91.html
Perhaps you need to get a supervisor involved to get the two teams (RTW and Fares) talking to each other about this.

Slightly confused here - am I correct that WLG-AKL and MLE-SGN are surface sectors?
When did you buy your ticket?
Before 1-Dec-2016 there was a restriction on 'long segment' flights to/from the UK

It would have had to have been purchased before then as BA stopped selling xONEn ex-Egypt around mid-November 2016. I purchased mine from BA on November 10, 2016 and at that time AA was not selling ex-CAI and BA stopped sales a few days after I purchased mine.

Nope, WLG-AKL is on Jetstar. That bit is not ticketed yet. The agent told me it's valid because it's a QF codeshare. Is it not ?

MLE-SGN is on Cathay Pacific. I missed out HKG - did it from memory :). So it's actually MLE-HKG-SGN.

Just checked the original ticket purchase date. Was on the 29th of November 2016. So seems like I am caught (just). I did buy it through BA thought, so I guess they didn't stop selling ex-Egypt until more like the end of November.

No - my mistake. QF codeshares on JQ are allowed.

Well then I am still confused. Your itinerary appears to me to have 16 segments and so does not satisfy BA's claimed requirement for a final AMM-CAI surface segment
CAI-LHR-IAD-DFW-SYD-WLG-AKL-KUL-CMB-MLE-HKG-SGN-DOH//LHR-MCT-DOH-AMM

You are right ! Okay, that explains it. TYVM. I think I must have miscounted the segments and just focused on what the agent told me. It would be so much easier if changes to these tickets could be made online !

QF coded JQ is allowed on oneworld tickets, however QF does not sell D on these flights (even on flights with a J cabin) and using such flights can limit ticketing options as some airlines can't ticket JQ operated flights.

I managed to get this ticketed but now BA are raising new issues with the ticket when I tried to change some dates. They are saying that the routing is invalid and it should not have been ticketed because I have too many stopovers in the continent of origin. It seems that because of the surface segment from DOH to LHR, which I only have in there because of the rule about 'long segment' flights to/from the UK, they are now saying I have too many stopovers in Europe/Middle East. (London, Doha, London, Muscat). Apparently you're only allowed three or something. I guess I could get around this and the 'long segment' thing by changing into and out of another airport in Europe - say Warsaw (that would work for us too) and ending in DOH instead ? Something like the following, in other words :

CAI-LHR-IAD-DFW-SYD-WLG-AKL-KUL-CMB-MLE-HKG-SGN-DOH-WAW/LHR-MCT-DOH

Are they correct about the point regarding stopovers ? They ticketed it anyway, but told me I wouldn't be able to make any further changes to the ticket now without fixiing the problem.

Also tried to upgrade a couple of segments to First (I have done this on a DONE5 previously) and was told that it's not possible to do that with this ticket type. Having done it in the past, I don't believe that's correct, but the agent was adamant ! I am wondering if it's actually due to the routing being invalid and the way they have ticketed it so as to prevent further changes being made.

Any thoughts appreciated !

BA is correct. The rule is:Again, BA is correct. The rule is:What you might have done in the past is upgrade some segments using FF points/miles. This is allowed. For example:
- on a QF-issued ticket I have upgraded QF segments using QF FF points
- on an AA-issued ticket I have upgraded AA segments using AA FF upgrade certificates
What is not allowed is upgrading segments by paying money

• congratulations on getting your changes made
• if you are planning more RTW journeys, I suggest you familiarise yourself with the fare rules (they are available on oneworld.com); and also take a copy of the rules as they are on the day you purchase your ticket

Happy Travels Brianek

Thanks Pandaperth. Actually, I was trying to upgrade using Avios not money. I wouldn't spend my hard earned cash on upgrades. That's what Air Miles are for :). So, on that point BA are incorrect then ? If so, I suspect the real problem is the 'lock' they have put on making further changes to the ticket (as opposed to what the agent told me).

Thanks also for the clarification on the stopover rule. Just one point on this. In relation to that rule, I assume that Europe/Middle East is a regarded as single continent (i.e. not Europe and Middle East separately). On that assumption, I think the following should be valid as long as DOH is used as a transit point for SGN-DOH-WAW and LHR is used as a transit point for WAW-LHR-MCT (i.e. no stopovers in DOH and LHR, which I believe means less than 24 hours)

CAI-LHR-IAD-DFW-SYD-WLG-AKL-KUL-CMB-MLE-HKG-SGN-DOH-WAW-LHR-MCT-DOH

Would you agree ?

Actually Brianek is my dog's name. Well Brian actually, but we sometimes call him Brianek. My real name is Evan :).

Probably the BA agent was incorrect. I do not know enough about the BAEC programme to be certain. I expect to upgrade it would have to be a BA-issued ticket, and the segment has to have a BA flight number and be operated by a BA aircraft.

Yes - Europe/Middle East is one continent (this is defined in the fare rules)
Re-writing your itinerary slightly - CAI-LHR-IAD-DFW-SYD-WLG-AKL-KUL-CMB-MLE-HKG-SGN-xDOH-oWAW-xLHR-oMCT-DOH
(x = transit, meaning no longer than 24hrs; o=stopover, meaning longer than 24hrs)
So you are correct, you will have just the two stopovers on your return. BUT what about the start of your journey - was it CAI-xLHR-IAD or CAI-oLHR-IAD? If the latter, then you can have only one stopover on your return

You can masquerade as your dog if you want to. We are non-judgmental here on flyertalk;)

It was CAI-oLHR-IAD. So, the only way I can see out of that is to finish the ticket in Muscat. That will do the trick. Thank you !

I think if I get the ticket into a form where it complies with the rules, that will sort out the upgrades issue - we'll see...

AA and BA allow flights operated by any of AA, BA, IB and sold as any of AA, BA, IB to be upgraded using Avios or AA miles, regardless of who issued the ticket. BA does severely limit the booking codes that can be upgraded, but D is permitted. However, whenever I've tried to upgrade BA segments using AA miles or Avios on a DONEx, I was told that BA prohibits this via some unpublished rule. I haven't tried in a few years (mostly gave up flying BA except for short intra-Europe flights). You can of course upgrade AA flights.

I don't think who issued the ticket or whose code is on it matters, because as I mentioned above, both AA and BA have published info on upgrades using Avios/miles that say it's OK to have codeshares (provides the flight is operated by any of AA/BA/IB and sold as any of AA/BA/IB). I suspect the problem is BA's non-published ban on upgrading DONEx tickets.

In my limited experience, I find that who issues the ticket does matter, as I have had no problem upgrading flights on a BA issued DONEn to first using Avios. Whenever I plan to upgrade DONEn BA segments to first I book the DONEn through BA. For example, most recently on a BA issued DONE3 I upgraded LHR-IAD to first and my upcoming PVG-LHR has also been upgraded to first, in both cases using Avios.

If there is a non-published ban, then your statement should probably be modified to read "the problem is BA's non-published ban on upgrading DONEx tickets issued by other airlines".

Discussion in BA forum on Avios upgrade

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...el-agents.html

I've never had BA issue a DONEx, so that might very well be why I have never been able to upgrade a BA segment to first. Thanks for the info.

I called BA asking to use gold upgrade for 2 on BA flights since the upgrade was going to expire. they denied because the ticket was not on BA stock.

QR has the same policy. I tried to upgrade DOH-SYD J -> F last year into an empty F cabin. Answer from several different people/departments at QR was that the ticket had to be on 157 stock to upgrade.

To join in, BA limits the use of avios, Gold Upgrade vouchers (GUF), and other upgrade instruments to 125 (BA) ticket stock.
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29235586-post7.html
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28823617-post3.html

BA does indeed have a policy that TA issued (on BA stock) booking cant be applied to booking with other carriers.

In practice, I dont think it is enforced. I contacted propeller and they were able to upgrade
BKK - HKG (stop) - xLHR - AMS - xLHR - HKG (stop) BKK from PE to J on the 4 BA operated legs. BKK HKG BKK is on CX E class and left untouched.

Also, I dont believe it was issued in the country of my parents BAEC membership as well.

Propeller?

https://propellertravel.com/guf2/


If you use upgrade voucher on BA, it is upgraded to award booking class. (U for business). but booking via propeller needs only I class, more seats and better earning.
(it is slightly more expensive than buying from BA website, but it is worth it)

I'm certainly no expert on using Avios to upgrade. I will note that just the last few posts in this thread are confusing, since they seem to equate upgrading using Avios with upgrading using other more specialized instruments. I am familiar with AA, and their rules on using SWUs (specialized upgrade instruments for top-tier and million-milers) are much more restrictive than are the rules for using AAdvantage miles (e.g., SWUs cannot be used on codeshares).

I did check the BA EC web site to see what it says. I cannot find any text regarding ticket stock or codeshares. It does say:

• Upgrade on British Airways, Iberia and American Airlines flights.

The section on Travel Agent booking likewise doesn't mention anything about codeshares or ticket stock:

The few times I have attempted to upgrade BA flights on RTWs, I was told (by AA when I tried to use AA miles, and by BA when I tried to use Avios) that it wasn't possible to upgrade on xONEx fares. I'm not saying the agents who told me this were right and FTers are wrong, just that the situation and any actual rules do not seem to be clear.

From the BA Trade Support website:
https://www.britishairways.com/en-nl...es-using-avios

To upgrade using avios (UuA) the flights you are upgraded must be on BA ticket stock as a condition precedent. This applies to any ticket, rtw or otherwise. If that condition is met then there are a number of other conditions that may or may not apply.

Thanks, that's clear. Now, why can't they say the same thing on the customer-facing pages instead of only on the agent-facing ones?

Although, as if they wish to reinforce my point about the rules being unclear, they also say that only BA prime flights can be upgraded, when the customer-facing page I quoted above says flights on BA, IB, and AA can be upgraded.

In my opinion, that page which is directed to travel agents is just explaining that travel agents can only use this process for BA prime (no codeshare, no other airline) flights. That BAEC will allow a customer who is a BAEC member to upgrade AA and IB flights directly with BAEC under very restricted conditions is not relevant in that context.

I have never upgraded with avios. if it is done via TA, what booking class is needed for upgrade?

That's fine if they want to only talk about agency bookings there. My point is that they should inform customers what the rules are on the customer-facing page. If they expect agencies to inform customers, then the agency page should also explain the rules. For example, my recollection from the original announcement some years back regarding upgrading AA/IB/BA flights using either Avios or AAdvantage miles is that an agency or airline booking that includes a flight operated by any of the three and marketed by any of the three is eligible to be upgraded either with Avios or AA miles, but I expect only directly with BA or AA. This was some years back, so I could easily be misremembering, and I certainly can't find anything on BA's site that says what the rules are.

Here's the table from the link jerry a. laska posted above:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...bfc1423b9f.png

yes. i saw the table. but my question is what booking class does it upgrade to...... U or I from PE to J?

Ah, sorry, I interpreted "needed for the upgrade" as what you needed to be booked into, but you meant what you need to have available. I think it's U for PE to J, and Z for J to F, same as straight awards, but I don't know for certain.

no. i didnt put it out clearly.

for gold upgrade for 2 via TA, PE to J is booked into I class as opposed to U class because TA does not see U space.

therefore, it is interesting to do upgrade via Avios if it can be done via TA as they booked into E/I/A class as opposed to award chart which is a big deal for many people.

Interesting. So you think perhaps J to F would book into A?

On TA-issued ticket using upgrade voucher, buy I FARE (I can be ZERO) book into A directly.
for avios, this is what I want to find out.