South African Rand
Dec 5, 2001 | 6:34 pm
#16
Join Date: Jul 2001
Programs: FlyingBlue (Platinum); AA (Executive Plat); BAEC (Silver), SPG (Platinum); Hilton (Diamond)
Posts: 712
If anyone is looking for a decent fare to JNB I can get you LAX-JNB at $1200.00 through a consolidator (other departures available). NWA/KLM, miles accrue, only downside is 92 day maximum stay.
Dec 6, 2001 | 7:48 pm
#18
In Memoriam
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Boca Raton, FL DL FO/MM AA EXP SPG PLT
Posts: 968
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CFM3RD:
How is South Africa now? Is there turmoil still? </font>
How is South Africa now? Is there turmoil still? </font>
Dec 7, 2001 | 12:43 am
#19
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SQ, BA, TG, Sheba, VN, MPO since 1980
Posts: 1,058
The incidence of crime in South Africa is well above the world average. However, the country is in some distinguished company. The recorded crime rate of 5 651 (all rates per 100 000 of the population) compares with an international average in 161 countries of 2 662.
This puts the SA crime rate at roughly the same level as Norway (5 563), the US (5 820) and France (6 169).
The following figures illustrate the stark reality that South and Southern Africa are probably the most murderous societies on earth, even with likely under-reporting (rates per 100 000):
South Africa 45
Swaziland 88
Botswana 20
Zimbabwe 18
Colombia 41
Sudan 31
Holland 15
Lebanon 13
Sri Lanka 12
Russia 11
USA 9
Germany 4
UK 2
International Average 5,5
Only the Bahamas, Swaziland and Lesotho have higher murder rates than South Africa. The propensity for crimes of violence in South Africa is also reflected in comparisons of rates of assault. The South African rate is 840, compared with an international average of only 142.
In 72 countries for which a full range of crime statistics is available, murder and assault make up about three percent of all reported crime. In South Africa the figure is 16%.
A possible explanation for this pattern is that South Africa's violent political conflicts have infected civil society with murderous intolerance. But this cannot be the full explanation. Other societies that have been exposed to equally violent political conflict, such as Sri Lanka and Lebanon, do not reflect the extraordinary pattern of brutality found in South Africa.
Have a Nice Trip
source: Independent Newspapers
This puts the SA crime rate at roughly the same level as Norway (5 563), the US (5 820) and France (6 169).
The following figures illustrate the stark reality that South and Southern Africa are probably the most murderous societies on earth, even with likely under-reporting (rates per 100 000):
South Africa 45
Swaziland 88
Botswana 20
Zimbabwe 18
Colombia 41
Sudan 31
Holland 15
Lebanon 13
Sri Lanka 12
Russia 11
USA 9
Germany 4
UK 2
International Average 5,5
Only the Bahamas, Swaziland and Lesotho have higher murder rates than South Africa. The propensity for crimes of violence in South Africa is also reflected in comparisons of rates of assault. The South African rate is 840, compared with an international average of only 142.
In 72 countries for which a full range of crime statistics is available, murder and assault make up about three percent of all reported crime. In South Africa the figure is 16%.
A possible explanation for this pattern is that South Africa's violent political conflicts have infected civil society with murderous intolerance. But this cannot be the full explanation. Other societies that have been exposed to equally violent political conflict, such as Sri Lanka and Lebanon, do not reflect the extraordinary pattern of brutality found in South Africa.
Have a Nice Trip
source: Independent Newspapers
Dec 7, 2001 | 1:17 am
#20
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SQ, BA, TG, Sheba, VN, MPO since 1980
Posts: 1,058
Welcome to danger town
By ED O'LOUGHLIN
Monday 15 October 2001
When Nelson Mandela's new government redrew South Africa's provincial boundaries in the 1990s, it turned the industrial sprawl around Johannesburg and Pretoria into a small, densely populated province called Gauteng - SeSotho for ``Place of Gold''.
Not long afterwards, a retired senior policeman from Newcastle, England, arrived in Johannesburg to visit his son, who had settled in one of the more pleasant northern suburbs. Sitting on the lawn, sipping a gin and tonic under the dry, highveld sun, he began scanning the crime updates on page four of the Citizen newspaper. As he read, a look of consternation crept onto his face. Finally, he let the paper drop to the grass.
``Andrew,'' he addressed his son. ``I've heard that Johannesburg was bad, but thank God you don't live in this Gauteng place.''
``Dad, this is Gauteng.''
The car licence plates read GP, for Gauteng Province. To many of its seven million-odd residents it is also Gangsters' Paradise. They complain, and sometimes boast, that they live in the world's most dangerous city.
Consider the official provincial statistics for 2000: murders, 4873; attempted murders, 7054; reported rapes and attempted rapes, 12,421; kidnaps, 1966; assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm, 59,506; common assault, 53,837; carjacking, 9008.
Of 21,683 murders recorded in South Africa last year, 22.5 per cent occurred in Gauteng - home to less than 17 per cent of the population. The country's murder rate, 49 per 100,000 people, is about nine times higher than that of the United States, and nearly 25 times that of Australia.
As it happens, this is not the world's highest murder rate: Interpol says the figures for Colombia are worse still. But Colombia is host to several interlocking civil wars, including the United States' quixotic crusade against cocaine. South Africa has officially been at peace for seven years.
Johannesburg may not even have the highest murder rate in South Africa. Depending on how you carve the country up, that honor could go to parts of Cape Town or KwaZulu-Natal. But the point about Johannesburg is that it feels more dangerous, because no part of it is really safe.
In Cape Town, as in Rio de Janeiro, Paris or New York, a good address can largely shield you from the poor and the desperate. In Johannesburg, violent crime can strike anywhere, and all too often does.
A couple of years back, the then-Lebanese ambassador left South Africa hurriedly after he had been robbed at gunpoint in his own official guarded residence in the ultra-swish suburb of Houghton. For the second time. Before leaving, he gave a hasty press conference at the airport. ``Beirut,'' he said, ``was never as bad as this.''
Even by American standards, South Africa is awash with guns: indestructible AK47 assault rifles and Tokarov pistols left over from the region's myriad conflicts; the pump-action shotguns and cheap revolvers issued to the meanest security guards; the 4.1 million-odd firearms licensed to ordinary citizens provided they carry them concealed.
With violence so commonplace, many criminals find it less bother to steal your car with you in it rather than fiddle around trying to hot-wire it when you're not around. Carjacking and armed burglary are the greatest fears for most ordinary South Africans. In 95 per cent of cases, if you do as you're told you won't get hurt. The rest of the time you will, and you won't know why.
Local experts complain that the most worrying aspect of South Africa's crime wave is the degree of - for want of a better phrase - ``unnecessary violence'' that often accompanies lower level crime.
AN old lady is shot dead without warning at a bus stop so the robber can take the few rand in her purse; a burglary victim is gang-raped and bludgeoned; a white motorist draws a pistol and shoots dead the black motorcycle messenger who has accidentally damaged his wing-mirror.
The reasons for this high ``background level'' of violence are not hard to identify.
Sociologists would point to the fact that Johannesburg is still essentially the gold-mining town it was 110 years ago, a social no-man's-land where people of all races and tribes go with the sole intention of getting rich quick.
South Africa itself was built on the back of several wars of conquest and a couple of obscure early genocides. The apartheid system reinforced the aggressive siege mentality of the privileged white minority while forcing blacks to live in crime-ridden ghettos.
Despite the passing of white rule in 1994, the income gap between ``formally white'' and ``formally disadvantaged'' areas remains acute. Ironically, many black South Africans blame the rise in crime on immigrants from elsewhere in Africa, who have been swarming to the bright lights of Johannesburg for the past 10 years. Many have settled in the city centre district of Hillbrow.
Hillbrow police station has a total of 277 officers to cover a population of 500,000. On any given night there will be a couple of dozen officers on shift and maybe two cars. The worst time of year is new year, when rowdier residents celebrate by throwing furniture, appliances and people they don't like off the high-rise roofs. Others shoot in the air, or at the police who come to clean up.
It was in Hillbrow in August that off-duty inspector Eric Singo went to the aid of a young woman being mugged at gunpoint. In the ensuing shoot-out, Singo became the 19th member of the 130,000 strong South African Police Service to be murdered since the beginning of the year. Since then, the total has risen to 22 for Gauteng and 76 for the whole of South Africa.
In contrast, a local newspaper noted - before the World Trade Centre tragedy - only three of New York's 41,000 police officers died in the line of duty last year, all in car accidents.
The government has started highlighting the country's violence in an apparent attempt to distract attention from the even worse problem of HIV/AIDS (estimated death toll in South Africa over the next 10 years, seven million).
Put all this together, and life in Johannesburg must be a living hell.
Except that, by and large, it isn't. One of the strange things about living in ``the world's most dangerous city'' is that for much of the time life is rather pleasant.
For the residents of the plush northern suburbs - a rapidly growing number of whom are black - there are good shops and cinemas and great restaurants. Despite inflation and a sliding rand, a little bit of money still buys a considerable amount of comfort.
For the mass of black South Africans, and for hundreds of thousands of immigrants, Hillbrow, downtown Johannesburg and Soweto are the brightest urban centres on a predominantly rural continent. This is still a place where the young and brave come to try to get rich. The streets and nightlife hum with an energy once found in early 20th-century New York.
A lot of the Johannesburgers who haven't fled the crime - to Australia, Britain or Canada - seem to secretly get off on the adrenaline and swagger of living with risk. And a surprising number of those who do leave eventually come back.
OR
you can go to USA, Washington DC
USA Murder rates - per 100,000 population
Location Rate
DC 80.6
New York 14.2
California 12.7
Maryland 11.7
Illinios 11.3
Montana 2.6
Iowa 2.0
Maine 1.2
North Dakota 1.1
Source: FBI UCR of 1995, Table 4, pp 60-67
By ED O'LOUGHLIN
Monday 15 October 2001
When Nelson Mandela's new government redrew South Africa's provincial boundaries in the 1990s, it turned the industrial sprawl around Johannesburg and Pretoria into a small, densely populated province called Gauteng - SeSotho for ``Place of Gold''.
Not long afterwards, a retired senior policeman from Newcastle, England, arrived in Johannesburg to visit his son, who had settled in one of the more pleasant northern suburbs. Sitting on the lawn, sipping a gin and tonic under the dry, highveld sun, he began scanning the crime updates on page four of the Citizen newspaper. As he read, a look of consternation crept onto his face. Finally, he let the paper drop to the grass.
``Andrew,'' he addressed his son. ``I've heard that Johannesburg was bad, but thank God you don't live in this Gauteng place.''
``Dad, this is Gauteng.''
The car licence plates read GP, for Gauteng Province. To many of its seven million-odd residents it is also Gangsters' Paradise. They complain, and sometimes boast, that they live in the world's most dangerous city.
Consider the official provincial statistics for 2000: murders, 4873; attempted murders, 7054; reported rapes and attempted rapes, 12,421; kidnaps, 1966; assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm, 59,506; common assault, 53,837; carjacking, 9008.
Of 21,683 murders recorded in South Africa last year, 22.5 per cent occurred in Gauteng - home to less than 17 per cent of the population. The country's murder rate, 49 per 100,000 people, is about nine times higher than that of the United States, and nearly 25 times that of Australia.
As it happens, this is not the world's highest murder rate: Interpol says the figures for Colombia are worse still. But Colombia is host to several interlocking civil wars, including the United States' quixotic crusade against cocaine. South Africa has officially been at peace for seven years.
Johannesburg may not even have the highest murder rate in South Africa. Depending on how you carve the country up, that honor could go to parts of Cape Town or KwaZulu-Natal. But the point about Johannesburg is that it feels more dangerous, because no part of it is really safe.
In Cape Town, as in Rio de Janeiro, Paris or New York, a good address can largely shield you from the poor and the desperate. In Johannesburg, violent crime can strike anywhere, and all too often does.
A couple of years back, the then-Lebanese ambassador left South Africa hurriedly after he had been robbed at gunpoint in his own official guarded residence in the ultra-swish suburb of Houghton. For the second time. Before leaving, he gave a hasty press conference at the airport. ``Beirut,'' he said, ``was never as bad as this.''
Even by American standards, South Africa is awash with guns: indestructible AK47 assault rifles and Tokarov pistols left over from the region's myriad conflicts; the pump-action shotguns and cheap revolvers issued to the meanest security guards; the 4.1 million-odd firearms licensed to ordinary citizens provided they carry them concealed.
With violence so commonplace, many criminals find it less bother to steal your car with you in it rather than fiddle around trying to hot-wire it when you're not around. Carjacking and armed burglary are the greatest fears for most ordinary South Africans. In 95 per cent of cases, if you do as you're told you won't get hurt. The rest of the time you will, and you won't know why.
Local experts complain that the most worrying aspect of South Africa's crime wave is the degree of - for want of a better phrase - ``unnecessary violence'' that often accompanies lower level crime.
AN old lady is shot dead without warning at a bus stop so the robber can take the few rand in her purse; a burglary victim is gang-raped and bludgeoned; a white motorist draws a pistol and shoots dead the black motorcycle messenger who has accidentally damaged his wing-mirror.
The reasons for this high ``background level'' of violence are not hard to identify.
Sociologists would point to the fact that Johannesburg is still essentially the gold-mining town it was 110 years ago, a social no-man's-land where people of all races and tribes go with the sole intention of getting rich quick.
South Africa itself was built on the back of several wars of conquest and a couple of obscure early genocides. The apartheid system reinforced the aggressive siege mentality of the privileged white minority while forcing blacks to live in crime-ridden ghettos.
Despite the passing of white rule in 1994, the income gap between ``formally white'' and ``formally disadvantaged'' areas remains acute. Ironically, many black South Africans blame the rise in crime on immigrants from elsewhere in Africa, who have been swarming to the bright lights of Johannesburg for the past 10 years. Many have settled in the city centre district of Hillbrow.
Hillbrow police station has a total of 277 officers to cover a population of 500,000. On any given night there will be a couple of dozen officers on shift and maybe two cars. The worst time of year is new year, when rowdier residents celebrate by throwing furniture, appliances and people they don't like off the high-rise roofs. Others shoot in the air, or at the police who come to clean up.
It was in Hillbrow in August that off-duty inspector Eric Singo went to the aid of a young woman being mugged at gunpoint. In the ensuing shoot-out, Singo became the 19th member of the 130,000 strong South African Police Service to be murdered since the beginning of the year. Since then, the total has risen to 22 for Gauteng and 76 for the whole of South Africa.
In contrast, a local newspaper noted - before the World Trade Centre tragedy - only three of New York's 41,000 police officers died in the line of duty last year, all in car accidents.
The government has started highlighting the country's violence in an apparent attempt to distract attention from the even worse problem of HIV/AIDS (estimated death toll in South Africa over the next 10 years, seven million).
Put all this together, and life in Johannesburg must be a living hell.
Except that, by and large, it isn't. One of the strange things about living in ``the world's most dangerous city'' is that for much of the time life is rather pleasant.
For the residents of the plush northern suburbs - a rapidly growing number of whom are black - there are good shops and cinemas and great restaurants. Despite inflation and a sliding rand, a little bit of money still buys a considerable amount of comfort.
For the mass of black South Africans, and for hundreds of thousands of immigrants, Hillbrow, downtown Johannesburg and Soweto are the brightest urban centres on a predominantly rural continent. This is still a place where the young and brave come to try to get rich. The streets and nightlife hum with an energy once found in early 20th-century New York.
A lot of the Johannesburgers who haven't fled the crime - to Australia, Britain or Canada - seem to secretly get off on the adrenaline and swagger of living with risk. And a surprising number of those who do leave eventually come back.
OR
you can go to USA, Washington DC
USA Murder rates - per 100,000 population
Location Rate
DC 80.6
New York 14.2
California 12.7
Maryland 11.7
Illinios 11.3
Montana 2.6
Iowa 2.0
Maine 1.2
North Dakota 1.1
Source: FBI UCR of 1995, Table 4, pp 60-67
Dec 8, 2001 | 1:28 am
#21
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: emerald sky
Posts: 550
Notwithstanding of all these dangerous reports on South Africa, I currently have a OWE4 ticket that is routed thru CPT. Well, if the price is right, I am seduced to the thinking of buying an ex-SA OWE ticket while my brief stay there. I guess getting down to South Africa twice a year in first class won't be too painful. As long as I stay at Mount Nelson Hotel, I hope my danger of staying there to be minimal.
Dec 8, 2001 | 7:04 am
#22
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: LAX, HKG
Programs: AA EXPLT, BA Gold, Shang Elite
Posts: 2,228
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CFM3RD:
Is FD the same as Flying Dutchman? Is there a way to get credit for the same trip on two different airlines?
What is a Flying Dutchman run anyway?
Thanks.
</font>
Is FD the same as Flying Dutchman? Is there a way to get credit for the same trip on two different airlines?
What is a Flying Dutchman run anyway?
Thanks.
</font>
yes.
they are matching whatever mileage balance and tier status you have. all you have to do is fly 20 segments, or sth ~ eqv of 1 inter-cont J or 2 in Y
Dec 8, 2001 | 9:05 am
#23
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Monterey, California
Programs: Affiliated with all, participate in some
Posts: 2,194
Interesting murder rate statistics. The rate for the Netherlands jumps out as extraordinarily high.
Any comments on that?
I have noticed that it is difficult getting domestic news when in the Netherlands because there isn't much English language news available. I had no idea there was that kind of violent crime rate.
Any comments on that?
I have noticed that it is difficult getting domestic news when in the Netherlands because there isn't much English language news available. I had no idea there was that kind of violent crime rate.
Dec 8, 2001 | 11:05 am
#24
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 6,084
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Kaoru Kanetaka:
As long as I stay at Mount Nelson Hotel, I hope my danger of staying there to be minimal.</font>
As long as I stay at Mount Nelson Hotel, I hope my danger of staying there to be minimal.</font>
Dec 8, 2001 | 2:03 pm
#25
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,031
satori, I don't read Dutch (language) news but having lived three years in Amsterdam, I have my doubts about the high murder rate for the Netherlands. If there were so many murders in this country, I'm sure my Dutch colleagues would talk about them as we discuss all other kinds of societal current issues over lunch at work.
Dec 8, 2001 | 5:34 pm
#26
Community Director Emerita
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Anywhere warm
Posts: 35,578
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Kaoru Kanetaka:
As long as I stay at Mount Nelson Hotel, I hope my danger of staying there to be minimal.
</font>
As long as I stay at Mount Nelson Hotel, I hope my danger of staying there to be minimal.
</font>
Dec 9, 2001 | 12:27 am
#28
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: emerald sky
Posts: 550
Eugene san, thank you for your kind recommendation. Its good to know there are reasonably priced hotel right on the beautiful waterfront that is safe in CPT.
San Diego1K, Unfortuntely, the September tragedy has really pushed back all of my OWE itinerary; originally I was supposed to spend the New Years in CPT and then take the blue train to Pretoria. But now I still must visit several other cities in European continents and spent some arabian nights before I can jet down to CPT; probably not until springtime. Thank you for your kind offer and I wish you an enjoyable stay. Do let me know of your experience at Mount Nelson. Oh I am sorry about my email; I was not aware that the recent collapse of excite@home had also impacted their Japanese joint venture site.
Sarecca san,
Now I must really get down to CPT by spring to get my second OWE5 or 6 started. That is indeed a prix tres agreeable! Thank you for such a stimulating impetus!!
[This message has been edited by Kaoru Kanetaka (edited 12-09-2001).]
San Diego1K, Unfortuntely, the September tragedy has really pushed back all of my OWE itinerary; originally I was supposed to spend the New Years in CPT and then take the blue train to Pretoria. But now I still must visit several other cities in European continents and spent some arabian nights before I can jet down to CPT; probably not until springtime. Thank you for your kind offer and I wish you an enjoyable stay. Do let me know of your experience at Mount Nelson. Oh I am sorry about my email; I was not aware that the recent collapse of excite@home had also impacted their Japanese joint venture site.
Sarecca san,
Now I must really get down to CPT by spring to get my second OWE5 or 6 started. That is indeed a prix tres agreeable! Thank you for such a stimulating impetus!!
[This message has been edited by Kaoru Kanetaka (edited 12-09-2001).]
Dec 10, 2001 | 9:54 pm
#29
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: LAX, HKG
Programs: AA EXPLT, BA Gold, Shang Elite
Posts: 2,228
my friends, i have started a thread of
"AONE5 ex-JNB"
the focus has now turned to how to maximize the african journey and regarding the comair regions vs. rest of africa.
essentially, i would like to visit MRU or SEZ for using the rand-fare. but it seems that the rules prohibit this.
i would appreciate your comment in that thread
thanks
"AONE5 ex-JNB"
the focus has now turned to how to maximize the african journey and regarding the comair regions vs. rest of africa.
essentially, i would like to visit MRU or SEZ for using the rand-fare. but it seems that the rules prohibit this.
i would appreciate your comment in that thread
thanks
Dec 14, 2001 | 1:41 pm
#30
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 6,084
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by drbala:
Hi Friends
I am sure some of you are planning to buy OWERTW tickets from South Africa. I am buying two in the next month. Watch the US Dollar Rand rate , the Rand has come down dramatically recently. You may save a bundle by timing your purchase</font>
Hi Friends
I am sure some of you are planning to buy OWERTW tickets from South Africa. I am buying two in the next month. Watch the US Dollar Rand rate , the Rand has come down dramatically recently. You may save a bundle by timing your purchase</font>