IS this a valid AONE5 routing ex Africa
Jul 25, 2016 | 7:20 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 195
IS this a valid AONE5 routing ex Africa
HI
I 'm finding the ticketing rules ex Africa taxing and wondered if anyone could advise if this is a valid routing as per the latest rules
CX in NZ have told me it's not due to the 2 visits to London even though one is a transit and also because it includes travel in SA
The skeleton of the routing is as follows - I have other flights planned to maximize the ticket of course !
MPM DOH LHR SYD LAX LHR transit JNB
So planning to stopover in London at the beginning of the trip and then transit at the end
Look forward to hearing but I thought this was a valid routing ...
Cheers
I 'm finding the ticketing rules ex Africa taxing and wondered if anyone could advise if this is a valid routing as per the latest rules
CX in NZ have told me it's not due to the 2 visits to London even though one is a transit and also because it includes travel in SA
The skeleton of the routing is as follows - I have other flights planned to maximize the ticket of course !
MPM DOH LHR SYD LAX LHR transit JNB
So planning to stopover in London at the beginning of the trip and then transit at the end
Look forward to hearing but I thought this was a valid routing ...
Cheers
Jul 25, 2016 | 8:06 pm
#2
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: used to be PER, now it's nowhere/eveywhere
Programs: QFF NB, AA GLD
Posts: 3,687
IMHO your routing is valid
The relevant rule is:
I suggest you talk it through with them, perhaps as follows:
The relevant rule is:
I suggest you talk it through with them, perhaps as follows:
- Your travel is originating in Africa
- Therefore one of your visits to Europe/Middle East is required to be a transfer without stopover, which your second visit is (LAX-xLHR-JNB)
- The second part of the rule is not relevant to your itinerary, because one of your visits is from Africa to the Middle East (MPM-DOH) and the other is from Europe to Africa (LHR-JNB); for the restriction to apply both visits must be to/from Europe. Therefore you are allowed to include South Africa.
Last edited by pandaperth; Jul 25, 2016 at 8:10 pm Reason: re-read original post and then clarified my response
Jul 25, 2016 | 8:08 pm
#3
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 195
HI thanks for that
That's what I thought too ..
I'll let them know and see what they have to say - just that I don't think anyone in CX here in NZ has ever booked a RTW ticket from anywhere yet alone originating in Africa
Cheers!
That's what I thought too ..
I'll let them know and see what they have to say - just that I don't think anyone in CX here in NZ has ever booked a RTW ticket from anywhere yet alone originating in Africa
Cheers!
Jul 25, 2016 | 11:00 pm
#4
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ORD [formerly] + HKG
Programs: CX Diamond, AA exExPlat, BAEC exGold, HH Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, Starriott Titanium, GE
Posts: 3,087
IMHO your routing is valid
The relevant rule is:
I suggest you talk it through with them, perhaps as follows:
The relevant rule is:
I suggest you talk it through with them, perhaps as follows:
- Your travel is originating in Africa
- Therefore one of your visits to Europe/Middle East is required to be a transfer without stopover, which your second visit is (LAX-xLHR-JNB)
- The second part of the rule is not relevant to your itinerary, because one of your visits is from Africa to the Middle East (MPM-DOH) and the other is from Europe to Africa (LHR-JNB); for the restriction to apply both visits must be to/from Europe. Therefore you are allowed to include South Africa.
Jul 26, 2016 | 2:48 am
#5
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: used to be PER, now it's nowhere/eveywhere
Programs: QFF NB, AA GLD
Posts: 3,687
No.
The rules state:
The backtracking rule (see post #2) explicitly refers to either the continent named Europe-Middle East or the zone named Europe.
In particular the restriction on having travel include South Africa/Mauritius explicitly refers Europe and so that means the zone named Europe.
The rules state:
The continent of Europe-Middle East consists of 2 zones:
* Europe (including Algeria, Morocco, Russia west of the Urals & Tunisia)
* Middle East (including Egypt, Libya and Sudan)
* Europe (including Algeria, Morocco, Russia west of the Urals & Tunisia)
* Middle East (including Egypt, Libya and Sudan)
In particular the restriction on having travel include South Africa/Mauritius explicitly refers Europe and so that means the zone named Europe.
Jul 26, 2016 | 8:50 pm
#6
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 195
HI
The AA RTW desk have also said not a valid itinerary quoting this rule from further down on the sheet
*segments between Europe and Middle East are not permitted if travel includes Africa and the itinerary utilises
the backtracking provisions in Para 4(e) 3.1.3.or 3.2.3.
It's more than frustrating as the online booking tool allows MPM DOH LHR
Help!
The AA RTW desk have also said not a valid itinerary quoting this rule from further down on the sheet
*segments between Europe and Middle East are not permitted if travel includes Africa and the itinerary utilises
the backtracking provisions in Para 4(e) 3.1.3.or 3.2.3.
It's more than frustrating as the online booking tool allows MPM DOH LHR
Help!
Jul 27, 2016 | 8:27 am
#8
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bath, UK
Programs: Free as a bird
Posts: 1,049
Hi all - I am also getting my head caught up in this one. Pandaperth I know you have studied these more than most so very happy you are participating in this. When the OP posted this giving his routing as MPM-DOH-LHR-SYD-LAX-LHR-JNB, my immediate assumption was that it was NOT valid, because it contains travel to Europe in both directions. I understand that his flight at the start is into DOH (middle-east zone), but then goes on to London. On the way back his departure from Europe/MiddleEast is from Europe. So does this not count as visiting Europe in both directions?
I posted a suggested routing in another thread (2016 oneworld booking experience) as follows:
MPM-xDOH-LAX-JFK-SCL-IPC-SCL-GIG-xJFK-HKG-CMB-NRT-LHR-ATH-MAD-DOH-CPT
There were a couple of responses. One suggesting I change the final sector to DOH-MPM or DOH-WDH to avoid South Africa. Someone else said the AA RTW desk said that the problem with that routing was the MAD-DOH flight.
On the issue of ending in CPT, that seems to suggest that I have included Europe in both directions - indicating that the MPM-xDOH-LAX would be considered Europe?
The latter suggestion seems to make sense if you considered the following:
"*segments between Europe and Middle East are not permitted if travel includes Africa and the itinerary utilises
the backtracking provisions in Para 4(e) 3.1.3.or 3.2.3."
However, there no longer appears to be a Para 4(e) 3.1.3 or 3.2.3. - so I am not sure if this is either someone has left that clause in by mistake or that they have left out the clauses under Para 4(e) by mistake.
Any thoughts welcome.
I posted a suggested routing in another thread (2016 oneworld booking experience) as follows:
MPM-xDOH-LAX-JFK-SCL-IPC-SCL-GIG-xJFK-HKG-CMB-NRT-LHR-ATH-MAD-DOH-CPT
There were a couple of responses. One suggesting I change the final sector to DOH-MPM or DOH-WDH to avoid South Africa. Someone else said the AA RTW desk said that the problem with that routing was the MAD-DOH flight.
On the issue of ending in CPT, that seems to suggest that I have included Europe in both directions - indicating that the MPM-xDOH-LAX would be considered Europe?
The latter suggestion seems to make sense if you considered the following:
"*segments between Europe and Middle East are not permitted if travel includes Africa and the itinerary utilises
the backtracking provisions in Para 4(e) 3.1.3.or 3.2.3."
However, there no longer appears to be a Para 4(e) 3.1.3 or 3.2.3. - so I am not sure if this is either someone has left that clause in by mistake or that they have left out the clauses under Para 4(e) by mistake.
Any thoughts welcome.
Jul 27, 2016 | 10:00 am
#9
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: used to be PER, now it's nowhere/eveywhere
Programs: QFF NB, AA GLD
Posts: 3,687
The latter suggestion seems to make sense if you considered the following:
"*segments between Europe and Middle East are not permitted if travel includes Africa and the itinerary utilises
the backtracking provisions in Para 4(e) 3.1.3.or 3.2.3."
However, there no longer appears to be a Para 4(e) 3.1.3 or 3.2.3. - so I am not sure if this is either someone has left that clause in by mistake or that they have left out the clauses under Para 4(e) by mistake.
Any thoughts welcome.
"*segments between Europe and Middle East are not permitted if travel includes Africa and the itinerary utilises
the backtracking provisions in Para 4(e) 3.1.3.or 3.2.3."
However, there no longer appears to be a Para 4(e) 3.1.3 or 3.2.3. - so I am not sure if this is either someone has left that clause in by mistake or that they have left out the clauses under Para 4(e) by mistake.
Any thoughts welcome.
And therefore the words that refer to them have been left in by mistake - IMHO
The AA RTW desk and its fares team are being pig-headed IMHO. Essentially what they are saying is "if you visit Europe/Middle East twice, then you cannot have flight segments between the two zones" even though there is NO wording to that effect in the new rules (whereas there was explicit wording to that effect in superseded rules - in 4(e) 3.1.3 and 3.2.3!)
Jul 28, 2016 | 8:47 am
#11
Join Date: Sep 2008
Programs: A3 *G, AA exePlat, AS MVP 75k Gold, JL sapphire, UA silver
Posts: 4,798
Jul 28, 2016 | 8:49 am
#12
Join Date: Sep 2008
Programs: A3 *G, AA exePlat, AS MVP 75k Gold, JL sapphire, UA silver
Posts: 4,798
The clauses 3.1.3 and 3.2.3, and all the other 3.x.x clauses, have been replaced with new wording. Therefore they have not been left out by mistake.
And therefore the words that refer to them have been left in by mistake - IMHO
The AA RTW desk and its fares team are being pig-headed IMHO. Essentially what they are saying is "if you visit Europe/Middle East twice, then you cannot have flight segments between the two zones" even though there is NO wording to that effect in the new rules (whereas there was explicit wording to that effect in superseded rules - in 4(e) 3.1.3 and 3.2.3!)
And therefore the words that refer to them have been left in by mistake - IMHO
The AA RTW desk and its fares team are being pig-headed IMHO. Essentially what they are saying is "if you visit Europe/Middle East twice, then you cannot have flight segments between the two zones" even though there is NO wording to that effect in the new rules (whereas there was explicit wording to that effect in superseded rules - in 4(e) 3.1.3 and 3.2.3!)
Jul 28, 2016 | 12:04 pm
#13
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: used to be PER, now it's nowhere/eveywhere
Programs: QFF NB, AA GLD
Posts: 3,687
)
Jul 28, 2016 | 12:09 pm
#14
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: used to be PER, now it's nowhere/eveywhere
Programs: QFF NB, AA GLD
Posts: 3,687
I am "in conversation" with AA on this at the moment
(I have skin in the game - I want to fly MPM-xDOH-BKK ... ATL-LHR-TLV-MAD-DKR and AA is saying NO to TLV because "if you backtrack to Europe/Middle East, you are never allowed flights between the Europe and Middle East zones"
Watch this space...
(I have skin in the game - I want to fly MPM-xDOH-BKK ... ATL-LHR-TLV-MAD-DKR and AA is saying NO to TLV because "if you backtrack to Europe/Middle East, you are never allowed flights between the Europe and Middle East zones"
Watch this space...
Jul 28, 2016 | 12:14 pm
#15
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: used to be PER, now it's nowhere/eveywhere
Programs: QFF NB, AA GLD
Posts: 3,687
on three grounds, at least
- they are wrong
- they will also be imposing this restriction on ALL ex-Africa itineraries, some of which are much more costly than ex-MPM itineraries
- they will also be imposing this restriction on itineraries originating elsewhere but which want to backtrack to Europe/Middle East in conjunction with travel to Africa