Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Global Airline Alliances > oneworld
Reload this Page >

Point of Origin and Return - A Question

Community
Wiki Posts
Search

Point of Origin and Return - A Question

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 11:11 am
  #1  
Original Poster
5M
100 Nights
100 Countries Visited
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, D.C.
Programs: BA Gold Lifetime, AA 2M, Delta 2M, Hilton Diamond, Hertz President's Club, EK Platinum
Posts: 1,018
Point of Origin and Return - A Question

Can I do the following.

Depart from Washington-National (DCA) to Chicago and onto Hong Kong on a westward RTW.

Then... fly London (LHR) to Washington-Dulles (IAD) and continue to Dallas Forth Worth (DFW) and then return to Washington-National (DCA).

My logic. DCA and IAD are separate just like LAX and the various airports in the Los Angeles area are differentiated. Thus, returning to IAD is not the same as returning to the point of origin - DCA.
AlwaysOnTheRoad is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 2:43 pm
  #2  
50 Countries Visited
All eyes on you!
20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Tampere
Posts: 3,340
Originally Posted by AlwaysOnTheRoad
Thus, returning to IAD is not the same as returning to the point of origin - DCA.
But, does 'point' of origin mean airport or city?

It used to be, I think, that multiple airports in a given city were considered 'co-terminous', such that you could transfer between them without regard to your xONEx. In that view, what you want would clearly not be allowed. But now they are differentiated, such that transferring from e.g., IAD to DCA is now considered a ground segment and one of the 16 allowed sectors in the ticket. Arguably, if the point of origin is the airport and not the city, your idea is logical. Unfortunately, the way these things usually work is that the rule is interpreted for the advantage of the system and not the pax, so I wouldn't hold out hope. But good luck!

cheers,

Henry

Last edited by henry999; Dec 15, 2012 at 2:49 pm
henry999 is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 3:14 pm
  #3  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Community Builder
20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: MEL CHC
Posts: 22,868
Originally Posted by AlwaysOnTheRoad
Can I do the following.

Depart from Washington-National (DCA) to Chicago and onto Hong Kong on a westward RTW.....
What type of RTW ticket ? There are many.
Mwenenzi is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 3:24 pm
  #4  
Original Poster
5M
100 Nights
100 Countries Visited
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, D.C.
Programs: BA Gold Lifetime, AA 2M, Delta 2M, Hilton Diamond, Hertz President's Club, EK Platinum
Posts: 1,018
Ticket type. OneWorld Explorer.
AlwaysOnTheRoad is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 5:15 pm
  #5  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: QFF
Posts: 5,304
BWI, DCA and IAD are 'co terminals' under the city code WAS.
However, oneworld removed the ability to use 'co terminals' a few years ago so transferring with a city such as arrive DCA, depart IAD now uses up one of the sectors on the ticket.
eg, Sydney-Tokyo-Osaka is 2 sectors, but if that connection in Tokyo requires changing NRT-HND, then it uses 3 sectors on the ticket.

Flying LHR-IAD-DFW-DCA-ORD-HKG is fine and uses the amount of sectors flown.

My last DONE3 had -SEA-ORD-LAX-IAH-ORD-AMM-. I had additional off ticket flights out of ORD (ORD was just a connection point for stops in STL, DTW and DCA, but as far as the DONE3 was concerned, it was 2 stop overs in ORD). Ticketed just fine via the online tool.
Himeno is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 5:20 pm
  #6  
Original Poster
5M
100 Nights
100 Countries Visited
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, D.C.
Programs: BA Gold Lifetime, AA 2M, Delta 2M, Hilton Diamond, Hertz President's Club, EK Platinum
Posts: 1,018
This would be a little different because one would fly DCA-ORD-HKG.... and then return to the United States but at IAD-DFW-DCA. I have not tried this yet with the on-line tool. Sometimes the RTW desks get a bit twitchy when it comes to rule interpretation - as noted above - they take the interpretation that is favorable to the airline - no surprise.
AlwaysOnTheRoad is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 7:00 pm
  #7  
100 Countries Visited
All eyes on you!
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: used to be PER, now it's nowhere/eveywhere
Programs: QFF NB, AA GLD
Posts: 3,684
It seems we don't know the answer to the question of whether travel through a co-terminal of the airport of origin counts as travel via the point of origin and thus violates rule 4(d):But OP - if you are intending to stopover in Washington and then later stopover in Dallas then you will be in violation of rule 8(2):
2. Maximum two stopovers permitted in the continent of origin of which a maximum of one
stopover is permitted in each direction in the country of origin.
pandaperth is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 7:29 pm
  #8  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
30 Countries Visited
3M
All eyes on you!
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QRPC PLT/OW EMD; Bonvoy LT Titanium
Posts: 14,559
From a practical viewpoint, ending at the point of origin is academic as long as you have an extra segment remaining when you get to where you really want to end. Just book but do not fly the final flight back to your point of origin. While it is true that they then have the legal right to charge you the difference between what you paid and regular fares on the point-to-point flights you actually flew, this has been discussed numerous times here on FT in the past and no one has ever reported that it has happened.
Dr. HFH is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 9:41 pm
  #9  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
All eyes on you!
25 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Juneau, Alaska.
Programs: AS 75K;BA Silver;AA G;HH Dia;HY Glob
Posts: 16,670
Looks like this question was first asked in 2002 by swanhunter without no conclusions reached:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/onewo...origin+lhr+lgw
And again in 2004, at which time a poster gave a definitive answer that all the coterminals listed for that city/metropolitan area would count as routing through the point of origin. No support for the answer was given. See:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/onewo...ty-origin.html
jerry a. laska is offline  
Old Dec 15, 2012 | 10:55 pm
  #10  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: QFF
Posts: 5,304
Originally Posted by jerry a. laska
And again in 2004, at which time a poster gave a definitive answer that all the coterminals listed for that city/metropolitan area would count as routing through the point of origin.
That was when coterminals still counted as a single stop (ie, SYD-NRT/HND-ITM was 2 sectors, not 3 as now). It may have changed ~07/08 when they removed the 'coterminal' allowance from the rules.
Himeno is offline  
Old Dec 16, 2012 | 1:35 am
  #11  
50 Countries Visited
All eyes on you!
20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Tampere
Posts: 3,340
Originally Posted by Dr. HFH
From a practical viewpoint, ending at the point of origin is academic...
Except that 'ending at the point of origin' doesn't really even come into it -- with an extra segment remaining or not -- because there are plenty of exceptions including one big enough to fit a continent in (e.g., "Africa").

cheers,

Henry
henry999 is offline  
Old Dec 16, 2012 | 8:24 am
  #12  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
All eyes on you!
25 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Juneau, Alaska.
Programs: AS 75K;BA Silver;AA G;HH Dia;HY Glob
Posts: 16,670
Originally Posted by Himeno
That was when coterminals still counted as a single stop (ie, SYD-NRT/HND-ITM was 2 sectors, not 3 as now). It may have changed ~07/08 when they removed the 'coterminal' allowance from the rules.
It wasn't that there was any specific language in the rules, it was because we were able to use city codes when booking with paper tickets back then. With the change to etickets it became difficult, if not impossible, to use city codes and about the same time we started getting the interpretation that XXX-LHR, LGW-YYY, (along with other coterminals) was an extra segment.

Regardless, the same rule about using the point of origin has been in the rules unchanged all this time and we have speculated more than once about how to get around it including by using coterminals. Personally I believe, as with most of these rules we parse, that the airlines will interpret it in a way that benefits them and point of origin means city and travel through LHR and LGW (or LCY) will be travel through the point of origin. Whether or not travel through BWI will be allowed on a xonex originating in DC or EWR for an xonex originating New York, is more difficult to predict. I believe some airlines will interpret the rule in that manner. Personally I think with those airports physically located elsewhere like BWI or EWR, it is not travel through the point of origin as you are traveling through a different city (or state). One would want to ignore any talk of coterminals and argue that originating in a different city (or state) and then traveling through BWI or EWR is not travel through the point of origin.
jerry a. laska is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.