Hi all,

I'm currently a 1P with UA and fly through ORD and IAD a lot. My wife is planning on accepting a job near MSP, so there may be a change of scenery in the near future. I'm weighing whether to switch FFPs from UA to NW and quickly getting disconcerted:

UA fares from MSP are generally in the same ballpark, but for the routes I'd need, they're surprisingly higher by anywhere from $140 to $260.

NW/DL has no Premium Economy (E+) seating for elites.

From what I read, upgrading on NW is harder than UA.

The Worldperks Visa from USBank has been discontinued, so I'm not aware of a mile-earning credit card.

No system-wide upgrades.

Can someone please prove me wrong on these?

One ^ is the lower threshold for highest level elite (Platinum @ 75K).

cb

Sounds like you made up your mind already.

No, I haven't. I'm hoping someone can turn me on to some of the perks of Worldperks. As of right now, I just don't see them. NW has a fairly loyal following, so I'm sure they're out there.

Let me add I'm genuinely seeking input--not trying to bash your program.

Upgrades on NW are automatic if seats are made available -- 5 days out for Plat, 3 for Gold and 1 for Silver. As a platinum flying out of DCA I am at about 95% on getting upgrades. The only ones I've missed in the last 18 months have been Sunday evening MSP-DCA or ATL-DCA (on the management -- Delta). Don't you have to use coupons or something on UA?

The WP Visa is gone. Delta has several AMEX cards.

Delta has implemented its variation of the SWU -- they are good for use with Y, B, and M fares. Platinums get 6 one-way per year.

If my home airport was MSP again (it was once) I can't imagine that I'd want to fly almost every flight with a connection through ORD (mostly) or DEN (well DEN might not be too bad).

500-milers are used for domestic upgrades on UA, but they're pretty plentiful if you fly enough. I read about the "unlimited domestic upgrades" but wasn't sure how common they are. Good to know a platinum is about 95%. I'm 15/16 on UA, so that's comparable to NW. I've noticed NW maintains a larger inventory of F seats, too, so the domestic upgrade seems to be a wash.

International upgrades are a whole different ballgame, though. Does NW/DL permit "gifting" or sponsoring of upgrades? On UA, a 1K (=platinum) can sponsor another passengers upgrade with his/her certificate.

Do any of the AMEX cards earn EQMs (MQMs)?

ORD connections really aren't that bad, the MSP-ORD-xxx connection would likely be in the same concourse or the neighboring one.

Thanks again.

International upgrades are a whole different ballgame, though. Does NW/DL permit "gifting" or sponsoring of upgrades? On UA, a 1K (=platinum) can sponsor another passengers upgrade with his/her certificate.

you can upgrade other pax on the same PNR ... but that's about it.

Do any of the AMEX cards earn EQMs (MQMs)?

yes, some

ORD connections really aren't that bad, the MSP-ORD-xxx connection would likely be in the same concourse or the neighboring one.

Thanks again.

Under ideal conditions, I have no issues connecting in ORD.

However, throw in an extremely hot day with takeoff weight restrictions in place, high winds, the common summer thunderstorm, a standard winter snowstorm, etc. and ORD drops to a snail's crawl.

If you are going to be living close enough to MSP to make it your primary airport, the non-stop options and generally good inclement weather operations are hard to beat.

So long as the non-stop airfare is competitive, I think the non-stop options win out.

Here is the text of the email that I sent earlier today to united's 1K voice customer service. I have been planning on sending this email for a long time.

In 2008 I did an elite match to move my travel from NW to UA. I fly 180,000+ EQM per year, almost all my travel is in the PDX-Japan market. I thought being a 1K would be better than being Platinum Elite at NW. I earned my 1K status and learned much about United. This year I have only flown United to Japan once, as United has become non-competitive with NW/DL in many ways. Here are the reasons you aren�t seeing me purchase United tickets very much anymore (FYI I already have 114,000 EQM at NW/DL this year):

1. Miles expiration is 36 months at NW/DL and 18 months at UA
2. Domestic to International segment upgrades are very disjointed. If the international leg of my trip is not yet available for upgrade, but the domestic leg is, I have to use a 500 mile upgrade to confirm the domestic leg upgrade. However, once the International leg upgrade clears, I don�t get the 500 mile upgrade back.
3. International upgrades are not cleared in a reasonable amount of time. I have seen a 747 SFO-KIX with 30+ open seats in Business Class, and my mileage upgrade didn�t even clear when I checked in at PDX for the PDX-SFO portion of the flight. This is ridiculous � especially for a 1K member. Does United actually think they are going to sell 30+ of these ($6,000+ one way) seats within 12 hours of departure? The 4 hour prior to departure is too strict and puts stress on the 1K member waiting for the upgrade.
4. On a TPA-DEN-PDX flight there was a mechanical problem. Agents were not very helpful and I ended up with an 8 hour delay getting to my destination. When I asked at the Red Carpet Club in Denver if UA would provide me a meal during the 4 hour DEN airport portion of my delay, I was told No. Then the Red Carpet Club agent took the �earned� pass that I had to enter the Red Carpet Club. At that moment, a thoughtful and caring UA employee would have offered me free entry into the RCC. This is a true story. 8 hour domestic delay due to a mechanical and poor re-accommodation policies of UAL. I felt like I was flying on a Chinese airline in the middle of nowhere.
5. Pacific Fuel Surcharges were still being charged many months after fuel prices dropped drastically worldwide.
6. Inferior Economy Product � only the leg room is better. Otherwise the inedible food, lack of Individual VOD on 747 aircraft and old-style economy seats put UA decades behind many Pacific competitors.
7. Inferior Business Class Product � while the new UB seats are nice and the VOD screen is great, the fact that the entire 777 fleet will take 2-3 more years before it is upgraded is enough to make me stop flying UA. How can you take 3 years to replace your inferior 777 UB seats? I refuse to fly those old style seats when much better options are available on your competitors. The UB meal service has obviously been drastically affected by cost-cutting. Your Flight Attendants obviously haven�t been in service training for years. Overall I experienced poor customer service versus excellent customer service.
8. Elite Choices � what a joke. These don�t even include any upgrades? It�s also very insulting to have �entries� into a drawing. This is not a tangible benefit. This is a gimmick. This does not reward loyalty. Time to rethink that one big time! Travel for us is Business, it isn�t a game.
9. Award Fees � NW/DL does not charge Award Fees to Platinum Elites (75,000+ EQM). The fact that UA is charging us to use the miles we earned to show loyalty is insane. There is no administrative cost with issuing an e-ticket within a shorter period of time prior to departure. This is all electronic. How can you charge $100?? This is pure and simple desperate attempts to increase revenue at your customers expense.
10. NW/DL is offering me 10,000 miles round-trip bonus for every round trip I fly through the end of 2009. UA has no such counter-offer.
11. NW/DL offered a 1 mile upgrade on Y/B/M fares this month. There was no similar promotion at UA.
12. Y/B/M FARE BONUS. This is huge!! NW/DL offers a 50% mileage bonus on Y/B/M fares. This is a significant number of miles that I would not have if I flew UA to Asia. This is pretty much the #1 reason I will buy very few UA tickets.
13. Today I woke up to a 15,000 EQM loyalty bonus from NW/DL. This was to help us reach our Elite levels, taking into account the economy and the reduced amount of Business travel. Where is UA�s recognition of this problem? How is UA going to keep their Elite Customers??
14. Red Carpet Club is an inferior product. The Narita Red Carpet Club has a pathetic offering of processed cheese, saltine crackers, Japanese snack crackers, bananas, and cheap cookies. The NW/DL Business Class lounge has a hot/cold buffet of Asian and Western foods that is a true reflection of what an International Business Class Lounge offers their customers. You should ask to tour the NW/DL Club next time you are in Narita � and compare it with the UA NRT RCC. There is no comparison.
15. Award availability - I wanted to look at flying UA for my Fall 2009 European vacation. I wanted to fly Business class using award miles. In February I was doing searches for October 2009, Business Class from PDX-AMS and the computer literally told me there were no Business Class saver award seats available for the entire month of OCTOBER????? Your premium cabins are practically empty as it is. How can you not offer seats for 8 months in the future during a slow travel month??? I ended up booking 2 Business Class tickets on NW/DL using miles with multiple flight/date options to choose from.

Good luck becoming competitive. It is very clear to me after experiencing UA that your airline has lost the ability to compete for very frequent international traveler�s business.

Way too long. Nobody is going to pay attention to an email like that. Got some good points there but also errors.

1. Miles expiration isn't 36 months anymore at DL/NW. Hasn't been that at DL for ages; in fact DL and NWers both are livid about a badly-handled changeover where DL miles expired early this year when people got emails saying they were safe through end-2009. Right now it's back to 24 months.

2. I've heard plenty of stories of people getting their 500s back after the Intl leg cleared with an SWU, by calling 1K1Call to extend the SWU to the domestic leg. E500s don't actually get pulled until you check-in, and don't really get pulled until you actually board, so I don't get the problem. What is a problem is applying an e500 to something like RDU-IAD-EZE and finding that only 224 miles on a CR7 fake-F cleared, with an SWU pulled. I've always gotten the SWU back with a call.

6. Be aware that DL changed the NW PDX-NRT flight from an NW 330 to an older DL 767. Until those get interior and IFE updates it's not as good a hard product as the NW 333/332 aircraft.

9. Those same types of fees are waived for UA's top tier. Granted it takes 25K more for 1K than it does for DL Plat, but 1K has more value especially to the international traveler. And 1Ks still get unlimited award change/redeposit, while DL changed DL/NW programs to give only 2 changes per year free to Plats, with $50 fee afterwards.

14. Yes, RCCs suck. But DL SkyClubs ain't that great either. Overall DL has downgraded the clubs from the old NW WorldClub catering. In some locations (TBIT at LAX comes to mind), *G lounges include very nice lounges like the *A lounge there, the *A lounge in LHR, etc. with all kinds of food. Not to mention the AC MLLs. Those out-do KLM and AF lounges in my experience.

Look, I bailed from UA too. I've got only 3K EQM this year, with zero from flying UA and only 500 flown on BD; the rest is last year's Choices EQM carryover. DL/NW may definitely make sense for your primary program, just as it makes sense for me as my secondary program (CO as my primary). But it's not as rosy as you make it out, and UA isn't as dismal (well not quite) as you make it out.

I'd think long and hard about this. Reasonably-usable SWUs and a stronger Asia network may be of more benefit to you than what DL can offer.

(not that I can't be longwinded too! )

Just to pipe in on upgrades�I can probably count on one hand the times that I haven't gotten an upgrade, and that's as a Silver, Gold, and a Plat for the past two years.

You should also look at where you'll be heading from MSP�to small-ish midwestern cities, you're a lot more likely to find an F cabin on NW, who flies DC-9's to a lot of cities that only otherwise see RJ's.

Thanks, Sam. I was so turned off my the NW Sf340s I didn't even think of the DC-9. That's a good point.

How is NW/DL on alliance awards? RTW fares?

I live in MSP and am Gold on NW/DL and 1k on United. I assume from the posts that you do a lot of Intl travel. Here are my thoughts -- hopefully not too long

Dl/NW have more seats in F than United, but not E+ If you do not get upgraded, there are very few ok seats if you are over 6 feet. From MSP, I get UG to smaller locations or during holidays -- rarely to West coast locations. Platinum, you should almost always get it though if you book a week in advance.

Clubs -- well they took away the RCC in MSP In general you get free drinks in DL club, not UA. Food is ok or bad, depending on which club you go to I personally like the radishes and other garnishes in Den.

I like the ability to change w/o penalties at UA, and if using a swu you don't need to do YBM. If your company pays those fares, then it is worth it. my doesnt

Lastly, how long will you be in MSP? If it is shortterm, stay with UA, as the first year you may get matched to Gold, but takes awhile to get to Plat. If longterm, probably go with DL

Hey MarkXS - I received a sorry email from UA with a $250 Electronic Credit Voucher. Plus a link to a survey to tell them how happy I am now that they have sent me $250. I don't do those pathetic surveys anymore. I guess my long-winded but truthful approach worked.

I think you are wrong about UA. They have lost their ability to compete in many ways and have no plans for the future (no aircraft on order). They are constantly down-sizing. The have no money and think they can charge equally expensive First/Business Class fares internationally and every few months take away more onboard product/service. Just wait until their next round of Union Contracts come due for renewal. It's going to be awful for their customers.

I'm MSP-based and leaning toward making UA my second airline of choice once I re-up Plat on Delta next month.

There is no premium economy on NW/DL - exit rows and bulkheads on A319/A320/DC-9s are the way to go. Adv: UA

That being said, upgrades are easier on DL/NW - no certs domestically, etc. It's all automatically done - no need to request upgrades, etc. Also, larger F cabins on DL/NW for the most part, especially on smaller narrobodies (12F on RJs instead of 6F on UA, most mainline planes have at least 14F, with the smallest being DL 737-700s at 12F; a comparably-sized UA A319 has 8F).

DL has three common AmEx levels - Gold, Plat, Reserve. Plat/Reserve earn EQMs.

Systemwides are currently 6/yr on Y/B/M fares. Look for (positive) changes to the DL PMU program this month.

Top tier on Delta next year will not be 75k - it will most likely be in the 125k range (DL is going with four tiers). Benefits for the new 4th tier (called Diamond) will be similar to UA Global Services (more expanded benefits than 1K from what I've been told).

UA does have good hub locations from MSP. However, as SchmutzigMSP mentions, ORD with a cloud in the sky can turn ugly fast. DEN seems to be a fine hub though. UA just started up MSP-SFO as a 1x daily flight, so that also helps connectivity. There are also plenty of options on US and CO out of MSP to help connect the dots.