Bait and Switch
Nov 28, 2007 | 5:37 am
#76
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It seems some people get so stuck in their opinions, the most important thing to them is they stand their ground and defend to their death if necessary (ok, maybe not that far, but...), that original opinion and never stop for a second to step back and to to look at all sides and consider reassessing what's happen. "I'm right!! I'm right!! I'm right..!! don't nobody tell me I'm wrong because I'm right!!" Sad.
This is NOT bait-and-switch. For it to be bait-and-switch, there's a requirement of willful and intentional mispresentation by the party providing the goods or services. That's NOT what happened here.
As I (and I believe the majority) see it, GA made an offer of 600 EU with the assumption the OP would be delayed overnight. I am certain the GA did not think "we need volunteers to bump, I'm going to offer 600 EU, but later rescind that and only offer 300 EU". That would be bait-and-switch.
There was much chaos and such getting the plane boarded and on its way, for the GA to be fully aware of all the various bump options is going beyond reasonable expectations. As it turns out, a flight was available to put the bumpees on and incur only a 45-min delay, IMHO, 300 EU is quite a good deal in this case.
If some kind of written agreement had been handed out and signed off on, this would be a different matter. It's why I think things like mistake fares need to be honored-- a<mistake> amount is advertised, money is exchanged, an agreement is made in writing <albeit electronically>. But there's a purely human factor here-- a GA who's difficult job is to get that plane off. Like many here have already pointed out, agreeing to a VDB means giving up some things, including boarding at a time where there's enough overhead luggage space. In the end, it wasn't necessary to stay overnight and put up with the hassles of returning a day later.
In the words of Howie Mandel, the OP got, "a good deal".
This is NOT bait-and-switch. For it to be bait-and-switch, there's a requirement of willful and intentional mispresentation by the party providing the goods or services. That's NOT what happened here.
As I (and I believe the majority) see it, GA made an offer of 600 EU with the assumption the OP would be delayed overnight. I am certain the GA did not think "we need volunteers to bump, I'm going to offer 600 EU, but later rescind that and only offer 300 EU". That would be bait-and-switch.
There was much chaos and such getting the plane boarded and on its way, for the GA to be fully aware of all the various bump options is going beyond reasonable expectations. As it turns out, a flight was available to put the bumpees on and incur only a 45-min delay, IMHO, 300 EU is quite a good deal in this case.
If some kind of written agreement had been handed out and signed off on, this would be a different matter. It's why I think things like mistake fares need to be honored-- a<mistake> amount is advertised, money is exchanged, an agreement is made in writing <albeit electronically>. But there's a purely human factor here-- a GA who's difficult job is to get that plane off. Like many here have already pointed out, agreeing to a VDB means giving up some things, including boarding at a time where there's enough overhead luggage space. In the end, it wasn't necessary to stay overnight and put up with the hassles of returning a day later.
In the words of Howie Mandel, the OP got, "a good deal".
Nov 28, 2007 | 7:54 am
#77
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My guess is that you'll find less sympathy there than you have here. But, there is really only one way to find out.
Nov 28, 2007 | 8:47 am
#78
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This isn't a bad idea (taking it to the KLM forum). There, there will be many more people that have experience with the KL GAs, as well as the EU rules governing those things. I would check over there to see whether or not you got screwed.
My guess is that you'll find less sympathy there than you have here. But, there is really only one way to find out.
My guess is that you'll find less sympathy there than you have here. But, there is really only one way to find out.
Nov 28, 2007 | 3:58 pm
#79
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SRQ
Posts: 2,175
Yup, I'm with Yaatri. How is this NOT bait and switch? He's offered 600, he gives up his seat, then he's told he's only getting 300? If there's a seat on his original flight, he should've been told that they didn't need him to volunteer anymore, not be given a lesser offer.
Apr 4, 2008 | 7:57 am
#80
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It was indeed Bait and Switch.
A few months ago a thread titled Bait and Switch regarding VDB compensation for volunteering our seats.
Many people felt that my characterisation of the situation as "Bait and Switch" was unreasonable, and I was to be blamed for the situation which I brought upon myself. Some personalised the issue claiming once they volunteered their seats and ended up getting nothing, suggesting that I was "well compensated". A few felt it was indeed bait and switch, while some others felt it was not simply a black and white call.
I usually do not complain, I know I should, about minor things such as malfunction of AVOD or seats, and have not complained about even some major incidents, some of which I have mentioned here on FT.
This time I drafted a note and faxed it to NW/KLM European Operations people at an address in MSP, different from that for Customer care.
After about a month, I got a response from Customer Care.
To those of you who felt KLM did not do anything wrong, and that my complaints were hollow, NW felt otherwise. To those who were rather rude, to the extent of making remarks bordering on personal attacks, making judgement about my behaviour, I hope they will refrain from doing so in the future and apologise if they made insulting remarks about my attitude and/or eat crow. 
$1.65 to 1 Euro is better rate than any I have seen.
Kudos to NW.
Many people felt that my characterisation of the situation as "Bait and Switch" was unreasonable, and I was to be blamed for the situation which I brought upon myself. Some personalised the issue claiming once they volunteered their seats and ended up getting nothing, suggesting that I was "well compensated". A few felt it was indeed bait and switch, while some others felt it was not simply a black and white call.
I usually do not complain, I know I should, about minor things such as malfunction of AVOD or seats, and have not complained about even some major incidents, some of which I have mentioned here on FT.
This time I drafted a note and faxed it to NW/KLM European Operations people at an address in MSP, different from that for Customer care.
After about a month, I got a response from Customer Care.
Dear Mr. Yaatri:
Thank you for writing about your recent flight experience. On behalf of
Northwest/KLM Airlines, we sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding
regarding the amount of compensation due for volunteered denied
boarding.
First, I would like to thank you and your family for volunteering
and helping us out in an overbooked situation. I regret the amount of
compensation that was promised to you was not delivered. I would be
happy to issue an additional voucher for 100 Euro which is todays
equivalent of $165.65 USD. See voucher numbers below.
- 012 XXXX XXXXXX $165.65 Yaatri
- 012 XXXX XXXXXX $165.65 Yaatri the Younger
- 012 XXXX XXXXXX $165.65 Yaatri the Youngest
................
Sd/-
Sincerely,
XXXX XXXXX
Supervisor, Customer Care
Northwest/KLM Airlines
Thank you for writing about your recent flight experience. On behalf of
Northwest/KLM Airlines, we sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding
regarding the amount of compensation due for volunteered denied
boarding.
First, I would like to thank you and your family for volunteering
and helping us out in an overbooked situation. I regret the amount of
compensation that was promised to you was not delivered. I would be
happy to issue an additional voucher for 100 Euro which is todays
equivalent of $165.65 USD. See voucher numbers below.
- 012 XXXX XXXXXX $165.65 Yaatri
- 012 XXXX XXXXXX $165.65 Yaatri the Younger
- 012 XXXX XXXXXX $165.65 Yaatri the Youngest
................
Sd/-
Sincerely,
XXXX XXXXX
Supervisor, Customer Care
Northwest/KLM Airlines
$1.65 to 1 Euro is better rate than any I have seen.
Kudos to NW.
Apr 4, 2008 | 8:07 am
#81
Join Date: Feb 2008
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A few months ago a thread titled Bait and Switch regarding VDB compensation for volunteering our seats.
Many people felt that my characterisation of the situation as "Bait and Switch" was unreasonable, and I was to be blamed for the situation which I brought upon myself. Some personalised the issue claiming once they volunteered their seats and ended up getting nothing, suggesting that I was "well compensated". A few felt it was indeed bait and switch, while some others felt it was not simply a black and white call.
I usually do not complain, I know I should, about minor things such as malfunction of AVOD or seats, and have not complained about even some major incidents, some of which I have mentioned here on FT.
This time I drafted a note and faxed it to NW/KLM European Operations people at an address in MSP, different from that for Customer care.
After about a month, I got a response from Customer Care.
To those of you who felt KLM did not do anything wrong, and that my complaints were hollow, NW felt otherwise. To those who were rather rude, to the extent of making remarks bordering on personal attacks, making judgement about my behaviour, I hope they will refrain from doing so in the future and apologise if they made insulting remarks about my attitude and/or eat crow.
$1.65 to 1 Euro is better rate than any I have seen.
Kudos to NW.
Many people felt that my characterisation of the situation as "Bait and Switch" was unreasonable, and I was to be blamed for the situation which I brought upon myself. Some personalised the issue claiming once they volunteered their seats and ended up getting nothing, suggesting that I was "well compensated". A few felt it was indeed bait and switch, while some others felt it was not simply a black and white call.
I usually do not complain, I know I should, about minor things such as malfunction of AVOD or seats, and have not complained about even some major incidents, some of which I have mentioned here on FT.
This time I drafted a note and faxed it to NW/KLM European Operations people at an address in MSP, different from that for Customer care.
After about a month, I got a response from Customer Care.
To those of you who felt KLM did not do anything wrong, and that my complaints were hollow, NW felt otherwise. To those who were rather rude, to the extent of making remarks bordering on personal attacks, making judgement about my behaviour, I hope they will refrain from doing so in the future and apologise if they made insulting remarks about my attitude and/or eat crow.
$1.65 to 1 Euro is better rate than any I have seen.
Kudos to NW.
Apr 4, 2008 | 8:23 am
#82
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Yeah, let's shut this one down before it gets ugly...
Apr 4, 2008 | 8:31 am
#83
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but, in all seriousness, why do you need the apologies?
We're all friends here
The debate, and contrary opinions, are just the general nature of FlyerTalk.Dewd, make love --- NOT war.
or, at minimum, relax in front of a warm fire with a nice glass of Woodford Reserve. 
Apr 4, 2008 | 8:55 am
#84
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This is just a consolation prize -- a good will gesture for family of Plats. Remember that you were demanding an additional 300 Euro each, and my arithmetic says you're 3 x 200 = 600 Euro short of that.
The agent might have been wiser to say "300-600 Euro depending on how much later you arrive", etc., but you can't expect her to stand there reciting the entire policy manual while she's asking people to volunteer.
In the original thread, you admit that you were given an opportunity to board your originally scheduled flight when you objected to the "switch". You should count your blessings (to the tune of 1200 Euro = $1980) and move on.
The link to the original thread is incorrect. This is the orginal thread: Bait and Switch
The agent might have been wiser to say "300-600 Euro depending on how much later you arrive", etc., but you can't expect her to stand there reciting the entire policy manual while she's asking people to volunteer.
In the original thread, you admit that you were given an opportunity to board your originally scheduled flight when you objected to the "switch". You should count your blessings (to the tune of 1200 Euro = $1980) and move on.
The link to the original thread is incorrect. This is the orginal thread: Bait and Switch
Apr 4, 2008 | 9:07 am
#85
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Join Date: Dec 1999
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Posts: 16,896
A few months ago a thread titled Bait and Switch regarding VDB compensation for volunteering our seats.
Many people felt that my characterisation of the situation as "Bait and Switch" was unreasonable, and I was to be blamed for the situation which I brought upon myself. Some personalised the issue claiming once they volunteered their seats and ended up getting nothing, suggesting that I was "well compensated". A few felt it was indeed bait and switch, while some others felt it was not simply a black and white call.
I usually do not complain, I know I should, about minor things such as malfunction of AVOD or seats, and have not complained about even some major incidents, some of which I have mentioned here on FT.
This time I drafted a note and faxed it to NW/KLM European Operations people at an address in MSP, different from that for Customer care.
After about a month, I got a response from Customer Care.
To those of you who felt KLM did not do anything wrong, and that my complaints were hollow, NW felt otherwise. To those who were rather rude, to the extent of making remarks bordering on personal attacks, making judgement about my behaviour, I hope they will refrain from doing so in the future and apologise if they made insulting remarks about my attitude and/or eat crow.
$1.65 to 1 Euro is better rate than any I have seen.
Kudos to NW.
Many people felt that my characterisation of the situation as "Bait and Switch" was unreasonable, and I was to be blamed for the situation which I brought upon myself. Some personalised the issue claiming once they volunteered their seats and ended up getting nothing, suggesting that I was "well compensated". A few felt it was indeed bait and switch, while some others felt it was not simply a black and white call.
I usually do not complain, I know I should, about minor things such as malfunction of AVOD or seats, and have not complained about even some major incidents, some of which I have mentioned here on FT.
This time I drafted a note and faxed it to NW/KLM European Operations people at an address in MSP, different from that for Customer care.
After about a month, I got a response from Customer Care.
To those of you who felt KLM did not do anything wrong, and that my complaints were hollow, NW felt otherwise. To those who were rather rude, to the extent of making remarks bordering on personal attacks, making judgement about my behaviour, I hope they will refrain from doing so in the future and apologise if they made insulting remarks about my attitude and/or eat crow.
$1.65 to 1 Euro is better rate than any I have seen.
Kudos to NW.
On a semi-related note, I was asked to volunteer at MSN to take a different routing to LGW as the MSN-DTW flight was oversold. $250 in order to arrive at LGW an hour later. No brainer as I was going in 2 days early.
In the end, though, they had the wrong number of seats programmed into the system for the new RJ they were flying and there were 4 extra seats, hence they didn't need the volunteers.
As I was boarding the plane and heading for my new Y seat (they gave my F seat away thinking they WERE going to route me differently) the agent told me that there'd be something for me attached to my WP account and when I checked a few days later, sure enough, I got an ECV for $250 or 25K miles.
Apr 4, 2008 | 9:09 am
#86
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$1.65 to 1 Euro is better rate than any I have seen.
Apr 4, 2008 | 9:21 am
#87
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Apr 4, 2008 | 9:55 am
#88
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Never saw the first thread but I'd agree with this guy.
Apr 4, 2008 | 11:19 am
#89
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This is just a consolation prize -- a good will gesture for family of Plats. Remember that you were demanding an additional 300 Euro each, and my arithmetic says you're 3 x 200 = 600 Euro short of that.
The agent might have been wiser to say "300-600 Euro depending on how much later you arrive", etc., but you can't expect her to stand there reciting the entire policy manual while she's asking people to volunteer.
In the original thread, you admit that you were given an opportunity to board your originally scheduled flight when you objected to the "switch". You should count your blessings (to the tune of 1200 Euro = $1980) and move on.
The link to the original thread is incorrect. This is the orginal thread: Bait and Switch
The agent might have been wiser to say "300-600 Euro depending on how much later you arrive", etc., but you can't expect her to stand there reciting the entire policy manual while she's asking people to volunteer.
In the original thread, you admit that you were given an opportunity to board your originally scheduled flight when you objected to the "switch". You should count your blessings (to the tune of 1200 Euro = $1980) and move on.
The link to the original thread is incorrect. This is the orginal thread: Bait and Switch
I did not demand 800 from NW. My stand was that the amount that was given was different from the amount that was offered initially (600). That's what I wrote to NW. I am not going to re-hash the circumstances again. It might very well have been a goodwill gesture. But it is pretentious to say you know why NW chose to say "compensation that was promised to you was not delivered". This indicates that it wasn't quite black and white as some posters claimed it to be.
People. A winky is there for a reason. Stop taking yourselves so seriously.
congrats, Yaatri^
but, in all seriousness, why do you need the apologies?
We're all friends here The debate, and contrary opinions, are just the general nature of FlyerTalk.
Dewd, make love --- NOT war. or, at minimum, relax in front of a warm fire with a nice glass of Woodford Reserve.
but, in all seriousness, why do you need the apologies?
We're all friends here
The debate, and contrary opinions, are just the general nature of FlyerTalk.Dewd, make love --- NOT war.
or, at minimum, relax in front of a warm fire with a nice glass of Woodford Reserve.
Last edited by thezipper; Apr 4, 2008 at 11:35 am Reason: multiple posts by OP
Apr 4, 2008 | 12:09 pm
#90
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Posts: 22,778
Congrats. I was on your side then and am glad you received the compensation you were promised. The reaction in your original thread was bizarre and the embodiment of the old adage "no good deed goes unpunished."
On a semi-related note, I was asked to volunteer at MSN to take a different routing to LGW as the MSN-DTW flight was oversold. $250 in order to arrive at LGW an hour later. No brainer as I was going in 2 days early.
In the end, though, they had the wrong number of seats programmed into the system for the new RJ they were flying and there were 4 extra seats, hence they didn't need the volunteers.
As I was boarding the plane and heading for my new Y seat (they gave my F seat away thinking they WERE going to route me differently) the agent told me that there'd be something for me attached to my WP account and when I checked a few days later, sure enough, I got an ECV for $250 or 25K miles.
On a semi-related note, I was asked to volunteer at MSN to take a different routing to LGW as the MSN-DTW flight was oversold. $250 in order to arrive at LGW an hour later. No brainer as I was going in 2 days early.
In the end, though, they had the wrong number of seats programmed into the system for the new RJ they were flying and there were 4 extra seats, hence they didn't need the volunteers.
As I was boarding the plane and heading for my new Y seat (they gave my F seat away thinking they WERE going to route me differently) the agent told me that there'd be something for me attached to my WP account and when I checked a few days later, sure enough, I got an ECV for $250 or 25K miles.
Too bad they gave your F away and you were stuck in Y. You deserved to be in Y as you obviously have poor negotiating skills. You didn't deserve anything. The $250 ECV or 25000 miles is only a consolation prize since you are a plat.
That just about sums it all. I am sure you know what I mean.