no first class?
Sep 17, 2002 | 5:30 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Phoenix/Columbus
Programs: Delta Silver Medallion, United Gold, US Airways silver
Posts: 1,748
no first class?
from the WSJ today:
September 16, 2002
First-Class Fliers Fear Airlines
Will Cut Costs at Their Expense
Are first-class airline seats destined to become a collector's item?
Concerns among passengers about a reduction in the number of seats in the front of the
plane were heightened last month when American announced it was removing the
first-class section from a number of 767s that service some cities in Europe, Latin
America and Hawaii. Rumors now are swirling on travel message boards that AMR
Corp.'s American Airlines is planning to eliminate between 10 and 12 first-class seats in
its Boeing 757 and 737-800 domestic aircraft.
American spokesman Todd Burke declined to
comment, except to say that the airline is
currently engaged in a review of all of its
services. Though it "wouldn't be uncommon to
re-evaluate seating," he says the airline has
made no decision.
Talk of eliminating first-class seats pains the hearts and legs of business travelers, most of
whom would like to see the industry recover, but not at their expense. In recent weeks,
passengers have seen an onslaught of new fees assessed for incidentals such as excess
baggage, ticket changes and standby flights, all of which have combined to make frequent
fliers paranoid about their ability to hold on to what remains of their perks -- especially the
ones that feature more legroom and a 60-inch seat-pitch.
"It's a legitimate question," says Michael Allen, an industry expert who serves as chief
operating officer of Back Aviation, a consulting firm in New Haven, Conn. Mr. Allen
predicts that airlines will downsize -- if not eliminate -- first-class seating in markets where
low-fare carriers put pressure on profits. "They may keep some seats as a product
differentiator, but there won't be very many."
Although Southwest Airlines' all-coach strategy may be a profitable business model, the
airline doesn't discriminate: Business travelers are treated no differently than passengers
who fly once a year to Disney World. Some frequent fliers point out that full-service
airlines attempting to "Southwesternize" domestic operations by reducing or eliminating the
number of comfy seats available for upgrades run the risk of permanently alienating their
best customers.
"First-class upgrades are one of the major perquisites of being a frequent flier," says Brian
Glicklich, a United Airlines million-mile flier from Los Angeles. "If they were no longer
available, my loyalty would be in play for another airline that had better upgrade
availability."
Unfortunately for Mr. Glicklich, United's first-class section is also under the microscope --
along with every other aspect of the business -- now that the airline is conducting a
top-to-bottom review of the UAL Corp. unit's operations. Spokesman Chris Brathwaite
declined to speculate on the future of domestic first class, except to say that United
passengers should expect "a product commensurate with what they pay."
Officials at Continental Airlines are more sanguine about seating. "We're not making any changes in our cabin
configurations now," says spokeswoman Julie King. "First class is not something we would easily dismiss. We tried that
with Continental Lite, and the result wasn't satisfactory for us or our customers."
Over the past decade, the number of premium seats on aircraft around the world has declined. According to the Air
Transport Association, first-class sections accounted for only 4% of seats by the end of the decade, down from 10% in
1993. In the mid-90s, several airlines including Continental, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines and Virgin Atlantic
replaced aging first-class sections with quasi-first-class/business sections when corporations began to refuse to allow
employees to fly in first class.
To be sure, the airlines have invested millions to refurbish premium seats in order to make them more comfortable and to
increase legroom, so the argument can be made that passengers are enjoying more comfortable accommodations than they
were 10 years ago. But domestic first class has largely been left out of the renovation rage, and passengers who sit there
aren't pampered in the same way their counterparts are on transcontinental or international flights.
"First class in the old days meant something," says Wayne Tan, a business traveler from San Diego. "These days, all you get
is a seat that's a few inches wider, but not necessarily better pitch. You get a drink served in a glass instead of plastic and
you get free booze."
But for the majority of airline passengers who fly within the U.S., "first-class light" is better than nothing. Few people pay
first-class fare to sit there, but the section is almost always full as a result of travelers who either used frequent-flier miles or
pay cash to upgrade. Over the past few years, it's become increasingly difficult for anyone other than a top-tier frequent
flier to find a free seat in first.
"It's not easy to get one," says Matthew Bennett, publisher of FirstClassFlyer.com2, a Web site based in Monterey, Calif.
He blames an increase in the number of marketing alliances with domestic and international carriers for the glut of
passengers now eligible to claim elite status. In airline "hub" cities, only platinum and platinum-plus passengers can count on
receiving upgrades on a regular basis.
Even though few people pay first-class fares, the section does generate revenue along with good will. In addition to the
intangible benefits of keeping top fliers happy, airlines can make money from the number of people willing to pay their way
out of coach. On one airline it's about to get more costly: Beginning Oct. 1, United will charge passengers $325 to
purchase four 500-mile upgrades; premier members will be charged $200.
Airlines also have begun experimenting with ways in which to generate as much revenue as possible from a premium seat
before it's released as an upgrade. Typically, there is only one first-class or business-class fare listed per flight, as opposed
to as many as 10 different economy-class fares.
But some airlines have found a way to sell a seat that might otherwise be available for an upgrade to passengers willing and
able to adjust their schedules. Delta recently put business class on sale to a select group of passengers, charging a
nonrefundable, 30-day advance purchase fare of $1,600 for travel between Atlanta and London. Delta's competitors
quietly matched that, giving passengers who could plan their itineraries in advance the chance to travel in their coveted
business-class sections.
"Airlines are getting smarter: now they're discounting these tickets to certain markets to get certain individuals to fly," says
Mr. Bennett. "They're running a business and they're not making any money, so they have to try new strategies."
Unfortunately, a strategy that places more restrictions on the best seats isn't welcome news to business travelers, since most
must travel with little advance notice. And some industry experts warn that tinkering with first class won't be enough; a
more radical change will be necessary in order for airlines to become profitable.
"If the front of the cabin is occupied by frequent fliers on an upgrade, the airline isn't selling those seats," says Mr. Allen. "In
low-yield markets, airlines need to be able to compete with other airlines that have more seats to sell."
But the airline's best customers aren't ready to part with their most precious perk. They argue that airlines still need to be
able to reward their best customers on the spot with a tangible benefit -- preferably one that comes with a footrest.
"If I were solely price-driven, I'd be on Southwest," says Spencer Martin, a finance professor from Arizona State
University who goes out of his way to fly American instead of his hometown airline, America West, because he likes to
upgrade to American's first class. "I spent thousands of dollars on flights last year. If American were to decide to kill my
'costly' perks, how on earth would they attract enough other low-spending customers to replace me?"
Send comments about Clear the Air to Jane Costello at [email protected]
Updated September 16, 2002 5:36 p.m. EDT
September 16, 2002
First-Class Fliers Fear Airlines
Will Cut Costs at Their Expense
Are first-class airline seats destined to become a collector's item?
Concerns among passengers about a reduction in the number of seats in the front of the
plane were heightened last month when American announced it was removing the
first-class section from a number of 767s that service some cities in Europe, Latin
America and Hawaii. Rumors now are swirling on travel message boards that AMR
Corp.'s American Airlines is planning to eliminate between 10 and 12 first-class seats in
its Boeing 757 and 737-800 domestic aircraft.
American spokesman Todd Burke declined to
comment, except to say that the airline is
currently engaged in a review of all of its
services. Though it "wouldn't be uncommon to
re-evaluate seating," he says the airline has
made no decision.
Talk of eliminating first-class seats pains the hearts and legs of business travelers, most of
whom would like to see the industry recover, but not at their expense. In recent weeks,
passengers have seen an onslaught of new fees assessed for incidentals such as excess
baggage, ticket changes and standby flights, all of which have combined to make frequent
fliers paranoid about their ability to hold on to what remains of their perks -- especially the
ones that feature more legroom and a 60-inch seat-pitch.
"It's a legitimate question," says Michael Allen, an industry expert who serves as chief
operating officer of Back Aviation, a consulting firm in New Haven, Conn. Mr. Allen
predicts that airlines will downsize -- if not eliminate -- first-class seating in markets where
low-fare carriers put pressure on profits. "They may keep some seats as a product
differentiator, but there won't be very many."
Although Southwest Airlines' all-coach strategy may be a profitable business model, the
airline doesn't discriminate: Business travelers are treated no differently than passengers
who fly once a year to Disney World. Some frequent fliers point out that full-service
airlines attempting to "Southwesternize" domestic operations by reducing or eliminating the
number of comfy seats available for upgrades run the risk of permanently alienating their
best customers.
"First-class upgrades are one of the major perquisites of being a frequent flier," says Brian
Glicklich, a United Airlines million-mile flier from Los Angeles. "If they were no longer
available, my loyalty would be in play for another airline that had better upgrade
availability."
Unfortunately for Mr. Glicklich, United's first-class section is also under the microscope --
along with every other aspect of the business -- now that the airline is conducting a
top-to-bottom review of the UAL Corp. unit's operations. Spokesman Chris Brathwaite
declined to speculate on the future of domestic first class, except to say that United
passengers should expect "a product commensurate with what they pay."
Officials at Continental Airlines are more sanguine about seating. "We're not making any changes in our cabin
configurations now," says spokeswoman Julie King. "First class is not something we would easily dismiss. We tried that
with Continental Lite, and the result wasn't satisfactory for us or our customers."
Over the past decade, the number of premium seats on aircraft around the world has declined. According to the Air
Transport Association, first-class sections accounted for only 4% of seats by the end of the decade, down from 10% in
1993. In the mid-90s, several airlines including Continental, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines and Virgin Atlantic
replaced aging first-class sections with quasi-first-class/business sections when corporations began to refuse to allow
employees to fly in first class.
To be sure, the airlines have invested millions to refurbish premium seats in order to make them more comfortable and to
increase legroom, so the argument can be made that passengers are enjoying more comfortable accommodations than they
were 10 years ago. But domestic first class has largely been left out of the renovation rage, and passengers who sit there
aren't pampered in the same way their counterparts are on transcontinental or international flights.
"First class in the old days meant something," says Wayne Tan, a business traveler from San Diego. "These days, all you get
is a seat that's a few inches wider, but not necessarily better pitch. You get a drink served in a glass instead of plastic and
you get free booze."
But for the majority of airline passengers who fly within the U.S., "first-class light" is better than nothing. Few people pay
first-class fare to sit there, but the section is almost always full as a result of travelers who either used frequent-flier miles or
pay cash to upgrade. Over the past few years, it's become increasingly difficult for anyone other than a top-tier frequent
flier to find a free seat in first.
"It's not easy to get one," says Matthew Bennett, publisher of FirstClassFlyer.com2, a Web site based in Monterey, Calif.
He blames an increase in the number of marketing alliances with domestic and international carriers for the glut of
passengers now eligible to claim elite status. In airline "hub" cities, only platinum and platinum-plus passengers can count on
receiving upgrades on a regular basis.
Even though few people pay first-class fares, the section does generate revenue along with good will. In addition to the
intangible benefits of keeping top fliers happy, airlines can make money from the number of people willing to pay their way
out of coach. On one airline it's about to get more costly: Beginning Oct. 1, United will charge passengers $325 to
purchase four 500-mile upgrades; premier members will be charged $200.
Airlines also have begun experimenting with ways in which to generate as much revenue as possible from a premium seat
before it's released as an upgrade. Typically, there is only one first-class or business-class fare listed per flight, as opposed
to as many as 10 different economy-class fares.
But some airlines have found a way to sell a seat that might otherwise be available for an upgrade to passengers willing and
able to adjust their schedules. Delta recently put business class on sale to a select group of passengers, charging a
nonrefundable, 30-day advance purchase fare of $1,600 for travel between Atlanta and London. Delta's competitors
quietly matched that, giving passengers who could plan their itineraries in advance the chance to travel in their coveted
business-class sections.
"Airlines are getting smarter: now they're discounting these tickets to certain markets to get certain individuals to fly," says
Mr. Bennett. "They're running a business and they're not making any money, so they have to try new strategies."
Unfortunately, a strategy that places more restrictions on the best seats isn't welcome news to business travelers, since most
must travel with little advance notice. And some industry experts warn that tinkering with first class won't be enough; a
more radical change will be necessary in order for airlines to become profitable.
"If the front of the cabin is occupied by frequent fliers on an upgrade, the airline isn't selling those seats," says Mr. Allen. "In
low-yield markets, airlines need to be able to compete with other airlines that have more seats to sell."
But the airline's best customers aren't ready to part with their most precious perk. They argue that airlines still need to be
able to reward their best customers on the spot with a tangible benefit -- preferably one that comes with a footrest.
"If I were solely price-driven, I'd be on Southwest," says Spencer Martin, a finance professor from Arizona State
University who goes out of his way to fly American instead of his hometown airline, America West, because he likes to
upgrade to American's first class. "I spent thousands of dollars on flights last year. If American were to decide to kill my
'costly' perks, how on earth would they attract enough other low-spending customers to replace me?"
Send comments about Clear the Air to Jane Costello at [email protected]
Updated September 16, 2002 5:36 p.m. EDT
Sep 17, 2002 | 9:52 am
#2
Original Member and FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Kansas City, MO, USA
Programs: DL PM/MM, AA ExPlat, Hyatt Glob, HH Dia, National ECE, Hertz PC
Posts: 16,619
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by remedy:
"First-class upgrades are one of the major perquisites of being a frequent flier," says Brian Glicklich, a United Airlines million-mile flier from Los Angeles. </font>
"First-class upgrades are one of the major perquisites of being a frequent flier," says Brian Glicklich, a United Airlines million-mile flier from Los Angeles. </font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">"It's not easy to get one," says Matthew Bennett, publisher of FirstClassFlyer.com2, a Web site based in Monterey, Calif. He blames an increase in the number of marketing alliances with domestic and international carriers for the glut of passengers now eligible to claim elite status. In airline "hub" cities, only platinum and platinum-plus passengers can count on receiving upgrades on a regular basis.
</font>
Sep 17, 2002 | 12:37 pm
#3
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: 36,000'
Posts: 1,206
And I for one as neither a platinum nor a "platinum plus" have no complaints about how many upgrades I received on NW--nearly every flight--and all of NWs are to/from hubs. LOL
Sep 17, 2002 | 3:02 pm
#4
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, TX USA
Posts: 609
Does any one know if the AA "first class" being cut is on three class planes -- coach, business, and first? The mention of Europe, Latin America and Hawaii might suggest that first being cut is on long range planes with 3 classes. The last time that I flew AA first class to Latin America (on an operational upgrade) it was just a little better than the business class on the same plane.
Sep 17, 2002 | 4:08 pm
#5
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: "Did you ever see Dallas from an MD-80 at night?" just doesn't have the same ring to it...
Posts: 1,685
AA's 767-300s will become 2-class planes; coach and a hybrid biz/first cabin similar to DL, NW, and CO. They will operate to secondary int'l markets, like FRA and ZRH
777s will retain a 3-class config, flying "premium" routes like NRT and LHR.
The 767-200s currently used for transcon 3-class service like JFK-LAX (no flat sleeper seats, etc) will stay in service on those routes.
AA has always had 2-class planes serving Central America, Canada and the Caribbean. They call it "business class" instead of "first," but it's the same meals, service, and seating as domestic F.
We've heard rumblings on the AA board about removal of F seats on the 757s and 737s. Nobody really seems to know anything definitive. It would make sense, though because the 757 has a disproportionate number of F seats compared to, say, an MD-80 (22 vs 14), but then again AA uses 757s on a lot of premium long-haul routes, including transcons, so they may decide to keep the F cabin at 22. Who knows? I guess we'll find out sooner or later.
Hope that helps.
777s will retain a 3-class config, flying "premium" routes like NRT and LHR.
The 767-200s currently used for transcon 3-class service like JFK-LAX (no flat sleeper seats, etc) will stay in service on those routes.
AA has always had 2-class planes serving Central America, Canada and the Caribbean. They call it "business class" instead of "first," but it's the same meals, service, and seating as domestic F.
We've heard rumblings on the AA board about removal of F seats on the 757s and 737s. Nobody really seems to know anything definitive. It would make sense, though because the 757 has a disproportionate number of F seats compared to, say, an MD-80 (22 vs 14), but then again AA uses 757s on a lot of premium long-haul routes, including transcons, so they may decide to keep the F cabin at 22. Who knows? I guess we'll find out sooner or later.
Hope that helps.
Sep 17, 2002 | 8:59 pm
#6
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Join Date: Nov 2000
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First, I must say I only read some of the article, but enough to realize this reporter was trying to make more of a story than it was/is. Many airlines removed first some time ago and now go with business and coach. In fact, the author even says that in the article. First was very small, since so many have moved to business. News? Yes. A big story... I don't think so.
Sep 17, 2002 | 9:29 pm
#7
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,748
Its amazing how so many people are against airlines changing their failing business model. Consider the following situation (thought up and written in less than 5 minutes, so excuse any flaws):
Lets say NW were to overhaul their current First Class product. Instead of 22 First Class seats on the B752, they now offer 12 premium seats similar to International First Class and an additional 12 E+-type seats. In addition to premium seats, First Class passengers enjoy their personal entertainment system, luxurious meals and outstanding service. Meanwhile, E+ passengers receive more comfortable seats, complimentary meals and entertainment and preferred service. Economy passengers receive standard seats, a light snack and water and have the option of paying for meals and entertainment. First Class seats may be purchased (of course) or upgraded only via premium fares (elite = complimentary, nonelite = small fee based on availability). E+ seats are available to everyone, but only elites receive additional services listed above.
What would be so bad about this?
Lets say NW were to overhaul their current First Class product. Instead of 22 First Class seats on the B752, they now offer 12 premium seats similar to International First Class and an additional 12 E+-type seats. In addition to premium seats, First Class passengers enjoy their personal entertainment system, luxurious meals and outstanding service. Meanwhile, E+ passengers receive more comfortable seats, complimentary meals and entertainment and preferred service. Economy passengers receive standard seats, a light snack and water and have the option of paying for meals and entertainment. First Class seats may be purchased (of course) or upgraded only via premium fares (elite = complimentary, nonelite = small fee based on availability). E+ seats are available to everyone, but only elites receive additional services listed above.
What would be so bad about this?
Sep 18, 2002 | 5:24 am
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Phoenix/Columbus
Programs: Delta Silver Medallion, United Gold, US Airways silver
Posts: 1,748
Nothing is so bad about that scenario, but look what happened to the international product. FC to WBC to considerably higher fares to upgrade and VERY limited access to them. I know the airlines need to stay in business, but amenities erode too much or become difficult to access, they lose their impact in maintaining customer loyalty. Why should I continue to take four segment trips, doubling the time that it takes to get to and from destinations, if I cannot derive benefits from the loyalty (miles). That's why I left DL (L and U class fares that could not be upgraded)