NW Union/Mgmt Labor Master Thread (merged topics)
Feb 18, 2006, 10:23 am
#136
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SFO
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by Olton Hall
I was certain US was going to go under. They had some serious service related problems, checked baggage mainly, that quickly drove the customers to other airlines. To their credit, they were able to fix the problems and less than a year after those problems they were out of chapter 11. I sure hope NWA does not go under. They serve a large portion of the midsection of this country and without them many communities will not be served.
I think one of the questions we need to pose:
Is there value to the the industry (all of its employees) the economy, and the flying public to let one or two of these "legacy" airlines fail for good, without any bailouts or help.
Many other industrys have had success allowing this to happen.
Last edited by mdelaur; Feb 18, 2006 at 10:28 am Reason: correction
Feb 18, 2006, 10:44 am
#137
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SFO
Programs: Delta Diamond, Some other impressive stuff
Posts: 450
Originally Posted by SchmutzigMSP
What's the big deal with people earning senority? It's the SAME idea in the corporate world as "climbing the corporate ladder". The main difference here is that, unlike the corporate world, FAs/pilots, etc. are only commended or reprimanded by the passengers, and rarely by company execs or coworkers. And most passengers don't report good or outstanding service, only the bad service. This is their equivalient of climbing the corporate ladder. If your company offered you a promotion and a raise after working with them for 10 years, why can't the airlines?
It's not the same as climbing the corporate ladder based on peformance. Now, climbing that ladder due to boot licking and politics, that's just as bad, but at least it can be reversed, not so with union rules.
Feb 18, 2006, 1:01 pm
#138
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 439
Originally Posted by johnnied
... Outsourcing the FA's is not the long term answer. Culture change within the airline is. Unfortunately, I don't think culture change is going to happen with this current management team...
And let me say, while a performance based system sounds great in theory, it is very subjective and guarantees nothing. In the eighties, I was head waiter for a large TGIFridays store, back when Fridays was still a benchmark for service. In addition to teaching service, training the wait staff and scheduling, I participated in performance reviews. We had a "Top 10" for the wait staff and priority in scheduling was given to the best. What "Number 1" wanted, "Number 1" got. The first time I sat in on a rating session, I actually wondered if some of the managers, including the GM worked at the same store I did! Do you know what influences a great performance rating more than anything? Yep, sucking up...sucking up to the managers and sucking up to customers for postive comments. The ratings were a popularity contest as much as an accurate objective reflection of who were the best performers. You may think that a particular FA is great based on the service they provided you but did they do so equally and without bias to everyone ? Do they work well with the rest of the crew and the flight deck? How knowledgable are they of their job and duties? It is difficult from a passenger perspective to accurately note these things and they are all integral parts of of what makes a great service person great.
Feb 18, 2006, 2:56 pm
#139
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SFO
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by MarcoPolosFootprints
BINGO...someone gets it!
And let me say, while a performance based system sounds great in theory, it is very subjective and guarantees nothing. In the eighties, I was head waiter for a large TGIFridays store, back when Fridays was still a benchmark for service. In addition to teaching service, training the wait staff and scheduling, I participated in performance reviews. We had a "Top 10" for the wait staff and priority in scheduling was given to the best. What "Number 1" wanted, "Number 1" got. The first time I sat in on a rating session, I actually wondered if some of the managers, including the GM worked at the same store I did! Do you know what influences a great performance rating more than anything? Yep, sucking up...sucking up to the managers and sucking up to customers for postive comments. The ratings were a popularity contest as much as an accurate objective reflection of who were the best performers. You may think that a particular FA is great based on the service they provided you but did they do so equally and without bias to everyone ? Do they work well with the rest of the crew and the flight deck? How knowledgable are they of their job and duties? It is difficult from a passenger perspective to accurately note these things and they are all integral parts of of what makes a great service person great.
And let me say, while a performance based system sounds great in theory, it is very subjective and guarantees nothing. In the eighties, I was head waiter for a large TGIFridays store, back when Fridays was still a benchmark for service. In addition to teaching service, training the wait staff and scheduling, I participated in performance reviews. We had a "Top 10" for the wait staff and priority in scheduling was given to the best. What "Number 1" wanted, "Number 1" got. The first time I sat in on a rating session, I actually wondered if some of the managers, including the GM worked at the same store I did! Do you know what influences a great performance rating more than anything? Yep, sucking up...sucking up to the managers and sucking up to customers for postive comments. The ratings were a popularity contest as much as an accurate objective reflection of who were the best performers. You may think that a particular FA is great based on the service they provided you but did they do so equally and without bias to everyone ? Do they work well with the rest of the crew and the flight deck? How knowledgable are they of their job and duties? It is difficult from a passenger perspective to accurately note these things and they are all integral parts of of what makes a great service person great.
Performance Based Systems (incentive systems too) are not easy to design or run, for some of the reasons you point out, but they are much better than just straight seniority.
The key is to set goals that are measurable and impact the company's business, Measure them well, and hold people accountable for them. Yes there are plenty of examples in the ececutive ranks in Fortune 500 that dont, but there are tens of millions of employees that are on some form of performance pay, or reward systems, that give the best raise, or wages, or job assignments to the best performing employees, not the high seniority employee.
Im not saying that long service employees arent the best ones. Im saying that internal employment decisions shouldnt be based on seniority first (or seniority only), as it is in many of union environments. Maybe thats one of the reasons why only 8 0f 100 employees in this country are union employees. Every one else got tired of the pie in the sky rhetoric.
Feb 18, 2006, 3:18 pm
#140
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DTW
Programs: DL 0.22 MM, AA 0.34 MM, PC Plat Amb, Hertz #1 GC 5*
Posts: 7,511
Originally Posted by mdelaur
Performance Based Systems (incentive systems too) are not easy to design or run, for some of the reasons you point out, but they are much better than just straight seniority.
Steve B.
Feb 18, 2006, 4:26 pm
#141
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 439
Originally Posted by mdelaur
Performance Based Systems (incentive systems too) are not easy to design or run, for some of the reasons you point out, but they are much better than just straight seniority.
The key is to set goals that are measurable and impact the company's business, Measure them well, and hold people accountable for them. Yes there are plenty of examples in the ececutive ranks in Fortune 500 that dont, but there are tens of millions of employees that are on some form of performance pay, or reward systems, that give the best raise, or wages, or job assignments to the best performing employees, not the high seniority employee.
Im not saying that long service employees arent the best ones. Im saying that internal employment decisions shouldnt be based on seniority first (or seniority only), as it is in many of union environments. Maybe thats one of the reasons why only 8 0f 100 employees in this country are union employees. Every one else got tired of the pie in the sky rhetoric.
The key is to set goals that are measurable and impact the company's business, Measure them well, and hold people accountable for them. Yes there are plenty of examples in the ececutive ranks in Fortune 500 that dont, but there are tens of millions of employees that are on some form of performance pay, or reward systems, that give the best raise, or wages, or job assignments to the best performing employees, not the high seniority employee.
Im not saying that long service employees arent the best ones. Im saying that internal employment decisions shouldnt be based on seniority first (or seniority only), as it is in many of union environments. Maybe thats one of the reasons why only 8 0f 100 employees in this country are union employees. Every one else got tired of the pie in the sky rhetoric.
Feb 18, 2006, 6:49 pm
#142
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: KOA
Programs: NWA PE, UA 1P; Displaced Illini Quadruple Diamond
Posts: 461
If the international FA's are outsourced, wouldn't those same FA's move to the domestic routes based on seniority. As someone who does 95% of my flying domestically, I would really hate to see this happen. When I fly internationally I just want to sleep anyways, but having the bad service domestically would be another issue.
Feb 18, 2006, 10:44 pm
#143
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: IAD
Programs: Chase Million Miler, SPG Gold, HHonors Gold, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 2,729
I worked as a ramp agent for a regional airline, but not as a unionized employee. THERE IS NO GUARANTEE (or even strong likelyhood) that the best/most qualified/most knowledgeable job applicants would get promoted to ramp supervisor. Management did not promote those who knew their jobs and did it well and stuck up for doing things the right way; they promoted those who were known to be company yes men who could be pushed around without to much "feedback."
Having worked in aviation for several years now, and NEVER as unionized employee, I CANNOT say that unions are what's wrong with the industry. In fact, if a labor group votes in a union, management has to ask themselves what they did wrong.
Besides, pilots, mechanics, rampers, etc, all want to know, "What's a FAIR, OBJECTIVE way to measure our performance? How do we make sure that the guys who are the first to suck up aren't the first to get promoted?"
Having worked in aviation for several years now, and NEVER as unionized employee, I CANNOT say that unions are what's wrong with the industry. In fact, if a labor group votes in a union, management has to ask themselves what they did wrong.
Besides, pilots, mechanics, rampers, etc, all want to know, "What's a FAIR, OBJECTIVE way to measure our performance? How do we make sure that the guys who are the first to suck up aren't the first to get promoted?"
Feb 18, 2006, 11:32 pm
#144
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 439
Now, c'mon guys, let's be fair.
High seniority equates to bad service as much as high elite status equals surly passenger...
...then again, maybe there's something to that...
High seniority equates to bad service as much as high elite status equals surly passenger...
...then again, maybe there's something to that...
Feb 19, 2006, 2:48 am
#145
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: ORF
Programs: NW Plat, UA PE, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Silver, Hertz PC, Delta Platinum Medalion.
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by MarcoPolosFootprints
NWA does not recognize the value of employees outside of insincere lip service. They view employees as an expense which translates into the liability side of the ledger.
Feb 19, 2006, 2:50 am
#146
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: ORF
Programs: NW Plat, UA PE, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Silver, Hertz PC, Delta Platinum Medalion.
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by p9142
If the international FA's are outsourced, wouldn't those same FA's move to the domestic routes based on seniority. As someone who does 95% of my flying domestically, I would really hate to see this happen. When I fly internationally I just want to sleep anyways, but having the bad service domestically would be another issue.
Feb 19, 2006, 4:38 am
#147
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SFO
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by DHAST
I worked as a ramp agent for a regional airline, but not as a unionized employee. THERE IS NO GUARANTEE (or even strong likelyhood) that the best/most qualified/most knowledgeable job applicants would get promoted to ramp supervisor. Management did not promote those who knew their jobs and did it well and stuck up for doing things the right way; they promoted those who were known to be company yes men who could be pushed around without to much "feedback."
Having worked in aviation for several years now, and NEVER as unionized employee, I CANNOT say that unions are what's wrong with the industry. In fact, if a labor group votes in a union, management has to ask themselves what they did wrong.
Besides, pilots, mechanics, rampers, etc, all want to know, "What's a FAIR, OBJECTIVE way to measure our performance? How do we make sure that the guys who are the first to suck up aren't the first to get promoted?"
Having worked in aviation for several years now, and NEVER as unionized employee, I CANNOT say that unions are what's wrong with the industry. In fact, if a labor group votes in a union, management has to ask themselves what they did wrong.
Besides, pilots, mechanics, rampers, etc, all want to know, "What's a FAIR, OBJECTIVE way to measure our performance? How do we make sure that the guys who are the first to suck up aren't the first to get promoted?"
Maybe employees could be part of the process (not by seniority!) of setting objectives or interviewing candiates for promotions?
Feb 19, 2006, 5:53 am
#148
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: GRB
Programs: DL Diamond Charter Member, 3 Million Miler, Hertz Pres Club, Hilton Gold
Posts: 525
Originally Posted by Radiocycle
I personally believe that both the unions and NWA management are applying maximum pressure and dipsplaying "Brinkmanship" in the union contract negotiatons.
If the pilots vote to approve a strike passes, then there will be tremendous pressure on NWA management to cut a deal, in the end, I believe a compromise acceptable to both sides will be made.
The PFAA/NWA also need to find common ground. The last foreign FA percentage NWA was discussing was for 30%, down from 50% and the original contract openers of 75%. So some movement seems to be occuring.
We should see some decisions in the next few weeks.
RC
If the pilots vote to approve a strike passes, then there will be tremendous pressure on NWA management to cut a deal, in the end, I believe a compromise acceptable to both sides will be made.
The PFAA/NWA also need to find common ground. The last foreign FA percentage NWA was discussing was for 30%, down from 50% and the original contract openers of 75%. So some movement seems to be occuring.
We should see some decisions in the next few weeks.
RC
Feb 19, 2006, 12:42 pm
#149
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CLT
Programs: AA EP, AA AC
Posts: 4,268
Hey all:
Writing from AMS and talked to an FA inflight from MSP-AMS about a strike possibility and the FA did not sound too enthusiastic as to a solution. I hope and pray that one can be averted. As many of you NW FTers I found a flying home on NW, and I sure hope that I don't need to find another one. Safe journeys my friends!!
Writing from AMS and talked to an FA inflight from MSP-AMS about a strike possibility and the FA did not sound too enthusiastic as to a solution. I hope and pray that one can be averted. As many of you NW FTers I found a flying home on NW, and I sure hope that I don't need to find another one. Safe journeys my friends!!
Feb 19, 2006, 7:28 pm
#150
Join Date: May 2004
Location: LAX
Programs: CO Platinum HHonors Diamond Avis President's Club
Posts: 2,312
I spoke with a DTW GA on a recent trip and she was pretty embittered to say the least. I believe her exact words were:
"Everyone got cuts in 94, they want more cuts now, and the execs just take all of our money for themselves. I already lost one house and now after all this I'm out another $800 a month and am going to lose the house I have now. For $8/hour, I'd rather the FAs and Pilot sstrike them into liquidation so that I can collect unemployment instead."
She said she's going to retire in a few months. Even after chatting with me and despite an empty gate area she claimed she was too busy to add me to a waitlist for my flight and I should go to some other gate and ask. Great customer service.
I guess we get what they pay for.
peace,
~Ben~
"Everyone got cuts in 94, they want more cuts now, and the execs just take all of our money for themselves. I already lost one house and now after all this I'm out another $800 a month and am going to lose the house I have now. For $8/hour, I'd rather the FAs and Pilot sstrike them into liquidation so that I can collect unemployment instead."
She said she's going to retire in a few months. Even after chatting with me and despite an empty gate area she claimed she was too busy to add me to a waitlist for my flight and I should go to some other gate and ask. Great customer service.
I guess we get what they pay for. peace,
~Ben~