"Selling Miles" or "Certs" and Caught--what to do?
Aug 5, 2005, 4:27 pm
#91
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: MN
Posts: 688
Originally Posted by lateacher
Well said. I think a lot of us are interested in the discussion, and we're curious to see how the situation is handled by NW.
DITTO
Aug 5, 2005, 5:00 pm
#92
Join Date: May 2004
Programs: UA lifetime 1K
Posts: 2,033
Originally Posted by lateacher
I think a lot of us are interested in the discussion, and we're curious to see how the situation is handled by NW.
If NWA, and the other program sponsors, don't defend us by enforcing the zero basis at which we get and use our miles, and if publicly accessible, de-facto markets for miles were to begin to thrive without the sponsors' intervention to preclude them, it isn't too far out to imagine some lawmakers thinking "Now, let's see: six trillion miles times two cents per mile times the marginal tax rate of those business travelers equals..."
So I don't think the OP deserves to be bashed. He made a mistake, probably didn't realize it before the fact, admitted it, and is gonna get spanked, maybe hard, by the airline. And I'll bet there are some viewers of this thread who won't now think about turning their miles to some quick cash. That benefits everybody.
Aug 5, 2005, 5:17 pm
#93
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: MSP
Programs: Hilton Gold, SPG PLAT, NWA Plat
Posts: 645
kdinino were this seat mailes by just you or you and your employees? Just interested in knowing.
Posting the outcome would help many others who make like decisons.
Posting the outcome would help many others who make like decisons.
Aug 6, 2005, 4:59 am
#94
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NW Platinum, SPG Platinum, HHonors Diamond.
Posts: 1,186
Originally Posted by YesHyM
This guy is really stupid; first for selling his miles on E-Bay and second for revealing what he did in this forum. I bet NW has read all of his posts; especially the second paragraph of his first post where he disparages NW and then in post #13 he "emailed them pretty much begging them to re-open my account." I'm sure he has many miles left to redeem and wants to make one more big sale because he said he is financially desperate. NW, if you are reading these posts, please close this guy's account.
Also your hypothesis on having additional miles was truly inspirational. “I'm sure he has many miles left to redeem and wants to make one more big sale.”
Let me guess, you’re a detective with a PHD in the classics?
Aug 6, 2005, 10:26 am
#95
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: He who dies with the most miles wins!!
Programs: WorldPerks Demoted again to SE, DL 3.1MM Hilton Diamond, SPG Gold
Posts: 11,674
Originally Posted by TRVLRZ
Let me guess, you’re a detective with a PHD in the classics?
Aug 6, 2005, 2:29 pm
#96
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC, LON
Programs: *
Posts: 2,790
Originally Posted by kdinino
I have no problem with the heat. I do have a problem w/ berating by people I don't even know who are on some big soapbox.
I get it.
In any course, Im asking to close the thread due to the fact taht the thread have evolved into a bashing (insert my name) thread. I appreciated Randy Peterson's post and I agree I won't divulge anymore info. It does me no good.
So again, thanks for all the advice.
I get it.
In any course, Im asking to close the thread due to the fact taht the thread have evolved into a bashing (insert my name) thread. I appreciated Randy Peterson's post and I agree I won't divulge anymore info. It does me no good.
So again, thanks for all the advice.
We can also not pretend this is not an issue worthy of discussion. FF miles and discount vouchers of all description are sold openly online. Many of us have either, bought, sold, or considered buying or selling, such vouchers or miles. We have even seen threads on FT by posters who are seeking to 'buy' up the few miles they lack to achieve an award.
Personally I think the honesty and modesty in your thread and in all your replies should be one that we all aspire to on FT. In many ways it is us (and not yourself) that you are helping by telling us your experience, so it strikes me that you get all these unfriendly responses. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Aug 6, 2005, 4:24 pm
#97
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: BSB
Programs: DL 2 MM
Posts: 4,917
Hopefully the lesson here is non-transferable Worldperk points should not be sold
The message this thread offers is that Worldperk Points should not be sold and selling of points can result in the closing of your Worldperks account, Seizure of any open/future tickets and litagation to recover the value of the sold points/tickets.
The OP broke the rules and got caught. What more can we say?
RC
The OP broke the rules and got caught. What more can we say?
RC
Aug 7, 2005, 5:13 am
#98
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: RST
Programs: Delta Diamond; Hilton Diamond; Accor Gold
Posts: 4,839
Originally Posted by Radiocycle
The message this thread offers is that Worldperk Points should not be sold and selling of points can result in the closing of your Worldperks account, Seizure of any open/future tickets and litagation to recover the value of the sold points/tickets.
The lesson is that if you are going to sell your miles don't do it on eBay!
Aug 7, 2005, 6:46 am
#99
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: MSP
Programs: Hilton Gold, SPG PLAT, NWA Plat
Posts: 645
Randy you say lots of things in the following - can you offer any data or show where 2000 people got busted or the AA\UA is better or worse? I am most interested in knowing the differences at different levels.
I am not trying to knock you just wondering how/where you get information?
I am not trying to knock you just wondering how/where you get information?
Originally Posted by Randy Petersen
kdinino:
This scenario happens daily and to at least a few hundred members on FlyerTalk in the various forums. In my 19 years tracking these programs, I've dealt with no less than 2-3,000 members who got busted in circumstances similar to yours. The outcome is a mixed bag actually. The patterns are that the higher elite level you are, the more likely you will get off with a warning. As a Silver member, you're in the zone most likely to have your account permanently frozen (sorry for the news). Now some semi-good news. NWA while having a mileage police department, does not rank among the top airlines for penalties - American and United have the more strict enforcement of the no "Buy, Sell or Barter..." rules. NWA ranks in the lower half of programs as measured by their account cancel/apprehension ratio. So that might be good. What matters and i can't tell from your initial post, is the amount of miles sold and the type of awards converted. Interestingly enough, that has an effect of the final result as well. Sale of miles for domestic coach tickets are often confiscated with a warning while multiple awards for first class international face the largest penalties.
Again, not knowing your exact situation (and i might suggest you keep that situation close to your own vest and resist saying too much more here on FT) it's hard to tell. Now, I'll give you some additional advice. It usually does not pay to penalize the airline by moving your business elsewhere if busted. Philosophically speaking, they did not do you wrong. What has happened in the past is that your name might be exchanged with another airline (or airlines in the case of an alliance....) for fraud control issues - sort of like the FBI comparing notes with the local police department, etc. When that happens, there have been situations where that members account is also flagged with the other airline because of "interest." I'd suggest waiting to hear the final outcome and then making a decision. You can complicate the issue by adding too much argument to NWA. I personally would not suggest the "labor issues, possible bankruptcy, etc." issues in making my point. There's every respect for someone who simply says - "I screwed up...."
What typically happens and how members get busted is that airlines are continually shutting down these mileage brokers you see on the Internet. When that happens, they really are interested in the customer database of the broker. They feed the file and flag all members who have in the past or in the future (since you register to sell your awards in the future) and watch for additional activity. So be very aware how you choose to participate in any of this activity. For the record - the legal system has backed up the airlines in every single situation of selling your miles, so please don't let any of these award brokers tell you any different and those of you who insist that there is no law against selling your miles - know the facts first.
This scenario happens daily and to at least a few hundred members on FlyerTalk in the various forums. In my 19 years tracking these programs, I've dealt with no less than 2-3,000 members who got busted in circumstances similar to yours. The outcome is a mixed bag actually. The patterns are that the higher elite level you are, the more likely you will get off with a warning. As a Silver member, you're in the zone most likely to have your account permanently frozen (sorry for the news). Now some semi-good news. NWA while having a mileage police department, does not rank among the top airlines for penalties - American and United have the more strict enforcement of the no "Buy, Sell or Barter..." rules. NWA ranks in the lower half of programs as measured by their account cancel/apprehension ratio. So that might be good. What matters and i can't tell from your initial post, is the amount of miles sold and the type of awards converted. Interestingly enough, that has an effect of the final result as well. Sale of miles for domestic coach tickets are often confiscated with a warning while multiple awards for first class international face the largest penalties.
Again, not knowing your exact situation (and i might suggest you keep that situation close to your own vest and resist saying too much more here on FT) it's hard to tell. Now, I'll give you some additional advice. It usually does not pay to penalize the airline by moving your business elsewhere if busted. Philosophically speaking, they did not do you wrong. What has happened in the past is that your name might be exchanged with another airline (or airlines in the case of an alliance....) for fraud control issues - sort of like the FBI comparing notes with the local police department, etc. When that happens, there have been situations where that members account is also flagged with the other airline because of "interest." I'd suggest waiting to hear the final outcome and then making a decision. You can complicate the issue by adding too much argument to NWA. I personally would not suggest the "labor issues, possible bankruptcy, etc." issues in making my point. There's every respect for someone who simply says - "I screwed up...."
What typically happens and how members get busted is that airlines are continually shutting down these mileage brokers you see on the Internet. When that happens, they really are interested in the customer database of the broker. They feed the file and flag all members who have in the past or in the future (since you register to sell your awards in the future) and watch for additional activity. So be very aware how you choose to participate in any of this activity. For the record - the legal system has backed up the airlines in every single situation of selling your miles, so please don't let any of these award brokers tell you any different and those of you who insist that there is no law against selling your miles - know the facts first.
Aug 7, 2005, 9:19 pm
#100
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC, LON
Programs: *
Posts: 2,790
Little wonder NWA is in so much trouble
Originally Posted by Radiocycle
The message this thread offers is that Worldperk Points should not be sold and selling of points can result in the closing of your Worldperks account, Seizure of any open/future tickets and litagation to recover the value of the sold points/tickets.
The OP broke the rules and got caught. What more can we say?
RC
The OP broke the rules and got caught. What more can we say?
RC
Little wonder the airline is in trouble. Looks to me more like mismanagement and misdirection of resources. There are bigger fish to fry than a few customers trading thousands of miles here and there - mind you that such miles are exchangeable for awards so NWA gains nothing by stopping this trade (except the hope that the legitimate owner would never have cashed such miles and it would have been NWA's gain).
Maybe NWA should concentrate on the welfare of their employees, improving profitability and making their customers happy rather than closing WP accounts and chasing mileage touts - whatever they gain from this is miniscule and isn't what is going to save the airline from sinking.
Aug 7, 2005, 9:40 pm
#101
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: BSB
Programs: DL 2 MM
Posts: 4,917
You don't need a lot of employees to monitor WP T&C violations
Worldperks is a profitable department at NWA.
Worldperks makes money for NW, even though other departments lose money.
The integrity and value of the WP program is degraded when WP members sell tickets/points.
This doesn't require 100's of employees to monitor ebay and internet ticket brokers/sellers. Furthermore the forfeited WP points have value, and perhaps the NWA employees that do monitor this activity may be fully paid for by the forfeited WP points from the closed accounts.
It may be a part time function, but it is smart to monitor this activity.
If this was your product/business, wouldn't you watch this type of fraud?
RC
Worldperks makes money for NW, even though other departments lose money.
The integrity and value of the WP program is degraded when WP members sell tickets/points.
This doesn't require 100's of employees to monitor ebay and internet ticket brokers/sellers. Furthermore the forfeited WP points have value, and perhaps the NWA employees that do monitor this activity may be fully paid for by the forfeited WP points from the closed accounts.
It may be a part time function, but it is smart to monitor this activity.
If this was your product/business, wouldn't you watch this type of fraud?
RC
Originally Posted by ani90
Surprises me though that while NW should be directing their resources towards solving their employee and financial crisis that they are using their resources tracking people selling miles.
Little wonder the airline is in trouble. Looks to me more like mismanagement and misdirection of resources. There are bigger fish to fry than a few customers trading thousands of miles here and there - mind you that such miles are exchangeable for awards so NWA gains nothing by stopping this trade (except the hope that the legitimate owner would never have cashed such miles and it would have been NWA's gain).
Maybe NWA should concentrate on the welfare of their employees, improving profitability and making their customers happy rather than closing WP accounts and chasing mileage touts - whatever they gain from this is miniscule and isn't what is going to save the airline from sinking.
Little wonder the airline is in trouble. Looks to me more like mismanagement and misdirection of resources. There are bigger fish to fry than a few customers trading thousands of miles here and there - mind you that such miles are exchangeable for awards so NWA gains nothing by stopping this trade (except the hope that the legitimate owner would never have cashed such miles and it would have been NWA's gain).
Maybe NWA should concentrate on the welfare of their employees, improving profitability and making their customers happy rather than closing WP accounts and chasing mileage touts - whatever they gain from this is miniscule and isn't what is going to save the airline from sinking.
Aug 8, 2005, 7:29 am
#102
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: MSP
Programs: Hilton Gold, SPG PLAT, NWA Plat
Posts: 645
Originally Posted by ani90
Surprises me though that while NW should be directing their resources towards solving their employee and financial crisis that they are using their resources tracking people selling miles.
Little wonder the airline is in trouble. Looks to me more like mismanagement and misdirection of resources. There are bigger fish to fry than a few customers trading thousands of miles here and there - mind you that such miles are exchangeable for awards so NWA gains nothing by stopping this trade (except the hope that the legitimate owner would never have cashed such miles and it would have been NWA's gain).
Maybe NWA should concentrate on the welfare of their employees, improving profitability and making their customers happy rather than closing WP accounts and chasing mileage touts - whatever they gain from this is miniscule and isn't what is going to save the airline from sinking.
Little wonder the airline is in trouble. Looks to me more like mismanagement and misdirection of resources. There are bigger fish to fry than a few customers trading thousands of miles here and there - mind you that such miles are exchangeable for awards so NWA gains nothing by stopping this trade (except the hope that the legitimate owner would never have cashed such miles and it would have been NWA's gain).
Maybe NWA should concentrate on the welfare of their employees, improving profitability and making their customers happy rather than closing WP accounts and chasing mileage touts - whatever they gain from this is miniscule and isn't what is going to save the airline from sinking.
Why does that surprise you - does not your business watch for thief and fraud (or do you work for Enron - just kidding).
Aug 8, 2005, 8:27 am
#103
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: St. Paul, MN
Programs: I've gone dormant. For now.
Posts: 1,480
Doesn't sound like a 100-reply situation to me. You did wrong and they are doing what they say they do.
Aug 8, 2005, 12:29 pm
#104
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 57
very informative--where do you get your data?
Originally Posted by ewj
Randy you say lots of things in the following - can you offer any data or show where 2000 people got busted or the AA\UA is better or worse? I am most interested in knowing the differences at different levels.
I am not trying to knock you just wondering how/where you get information?
I am not trying to knock you just wondering how/where you get information?
Aug 8, 2005, 12:36 pm
#105
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 57
Thank you for sharing your experience
Originally Posted by Bikeguy
I agree this is uncalled for and should be deleted and an apology made.
Many in this forum are being educated in what can happen. I can only imagine several won't go down this path that may have thought it an acceptable idea.
I commend the OP for his openness and would urge others to learn through his willingness to share what can happen. Not judge him.
And if any FTers feel compelled to name call, I would suggest they work on their own self esteem instead.
Many in this forum are being educated in what can happen. I can only imagine several won't go down this path that may have thought it an acceptable idea.
I commend the OP for his openness and would urge others to learn through his willingness to share what can happen. Not judge him.
And if any FTers feel compelled to name call, I would suggest they work on their own self esteem instead.