I see things as less black and white than a lot of you. I am with jiburi on this one. The news for NW just came out and folks are jumping ship already! The bad news is that they really do not know what they are getting into. Fine with me, more room in FC! ^

The Platinum Point scheme is not yet out and that could make a big difference.

Apples vs. Oranges. People are comparing NW '05 to UA '04. Wait until the other airline plans have been released before making any decisions. Assuming there will still be some differences between them perhaps the best policy is to book the largest number of flights with the carrier that is most convenient / best schedule / or with the best package of bennies, but accrue miles on a second carrier for that award flight (Australia/Europe).

People are also comparing carriers as if there was no difference in the likelihood of the failure / liquidation of each carrier. NW, with the new pilots agreement and anticipated debt reschedule, is relatively strong compared to for example UA. Unless you are planning to earn and burn miles within a short period, a more favorable schedule would be worthless if the carrier fails.

For my requirements, NW offers the schedule and pricing that is better than other carriers and the Worldperks plan is best for me. :) I think I will be making WP Silver this year after a four year absence. But I will be taking notice of the reduced miles on other carriers (UA) for Australia and thinking about how I might pick up some miles on them.

Wow..all the folks jumping and bailing..sad to see it happen but for selfish reasons the less elite members the more upgrades for me!! I think that looking at NW's changes in equipment to both Europe and Asia and some drastic decreases in the size of those business classes that the increase in mileage doesn't really surprise me much. Why give the seats away when you can sell them and make money on them?? NW still, IMO, has the best domestic upgrade policy and will continue to in 2005. They kept EQMs at 100% which I love since all of my travel is done on my dime so I can possible keep my status. Airlines are really in some financial binds right now and maybe next year if things turn for the better and costs continue to be driven down, mileage requirements may come down. I won't be at all surprised to see other airlines follow suit and increase their mileage requirements as well. Don't get me wrong, I am disappointed that any freebie tickets I may want to use may go up in mileage costs, I can live with it. They kept the most important things to me in place for 2005 so I will enjoy my newly received Gold Elite Status and hope to improve on my 87% success rate as a Silver and continue to support the redtail!!!

Jer

I think there is an "inflation" in NWA miles. I have a "monetary theory" about this.

NWA is letting us earn more miles (Milezilla, etc.). So, there are more miles earned out there per person per year (than let say UA miles). So, value of 1 NWA mile depreciates faster comparing to 1 UA mile, because 1 NWA mile is less scarce than 1 UA mile. To fight this depreciation, NWA has to increase the cost of award fares in some markets.

Now, if "1 NWA mile is less scarce than 1 UA mile" is true and if we suppose that it costs about the same in $ to fly someone on an award ticket, then in some markets NWA may want to charge us more miles per award ticket than let say UA.

It's only my theory. I could easily be wrong and this may not make sense:)

I know that whenever I change a reward ticket, the miles are redeposited into my account, and then taken out again. From this, I'd say that if change it, you'll be charged the difference.

i would actually be willing to bet that they won't charge the difference. aside from having a strong hunch, the following paragraphs from the members guide clearly differentiate between changing and redepositing; the fact that the fee for both actions is $50 seems irrelevant:

27. Once award tickets are confirmed, any changes, including changes to date and times, will require a $50 USD administrative fee per person, per ticket when Northwest agents are required to revise the award ticket. Fee may be avoided or reduced if changes are made on nwa.com.
28. You may redeposit any number of award tickets for a non-refundable
administrative fee of $50 USD per person, per ticket when all valid tickets for
redeposit are from the same WorldPerks account and are presented at the
same time. Miles can only be redeposited into the account from which they
were redeemed.

I'd think you'd be charged the new amount. The reasoning is this. You lock in a price (in this case # of miles) only when you TICKET. If you change that ticket it will have to be re-ticketed, which means the price (miles) will be reflective of what is available that day, since that is when the ticket for those flights will be issued. In your case your price would no longer be available and you'd have to move up to what is.

I hope this is the case, but I can't help but notice that there are a few rows (awards) in the award chart that show only "N/C" (no change?) and/or "N/A" (not applicable?) straight across, such as US49 - Hawaii. I'm assuming these awards have no changes, yet do show up on the webpage award chart.

I would be even less pleased than I am already with these changes if your theory turns out to be correct. So, residing here in Asia, I don't get to take part in most of the great mileage building promos, credit card promos (the bonuses for credit card signups here are but a fraction of what they are stateside), etc., but I do get hit by the increases in miles needed for awards to most places, and in limbo (not knowing about intra-Asia or N. Asia to Hawaii awards as they were not on the new chart) on others? :mad:

NW Miles versus UA Miles, Early 2005 Forecast
 

I believe this is true in many ways, but contradicting those thinking of switching to UA, I think NW miles are just as valuable, if not more as UA.

EQM: ADVANTAGE NW
As an elite, UA provides 100% EQM, just like NW, but platinum requalification is 75,000 with NW, 100,000 with UA. The only spoilers to NW's 100% EQM policy is Continental and Delta's 50% policy on deeply discounted tickets. I must add that UA does have a fee based "double EQM" promotion going on right now though. (This promotion can be a major heartbreaker to fee paying double EQM'ers if UA decide to change mileage redemption levels)

MILEAGE EARNING POWER: ADVANTAGE NW
Both airlines provides standard "mileage flown" miles of its flights and its partner flights. The marked difference is the elite bonus miles. UA will only provide elite bonus (25% Premier, 100% Premier Exec and 1K) to United, US Airways, and Lufthansa(transatlantic only) operated flights. No elite bonus miles are awarded for any of its other Star Alliance member flights(eg. Air Canada, SAS, ANA, BMI, etc). NW provides elite bonus miles (50% silver, 100% gold, 125% platinum) to EVERY AIRLINE PARTNER in addition to the regular flown miles. (Obviously, the region where you begin and end your flying can definitely impact this, as you may not see service to your region) Also keep in mind that if your flying more than 75K, your NW platinum status will earn more miles than 1K at UA.

UPGRADE: Advantage NW-Domestic, Advantage UA-International
Upgrading is a different creature all together, where NW will provide its elites, high percentage of complimentary domestic upgrades. UA scores better on international upgrades for elites. Domestically, as a NW Plat, I'm 100% on NW upgrades (34 segments out of 34), and 87.5% at Continental (7 out of 8), and 67% at Alaska Airlines (4 out of 6). As a UA Premier Exec, I have to pick and choose where I get my domestic UA upgrades. I've only gotten 3 UA segments upgraded out of about 24 segments. UA, however scores better on international upgrades, as they provide for complimentary systemwide upgrades to some of its higher elites. They are, however limited to amount of certificates you earn.

MILEAGE REDEMPTION: Advantage UA for 2005 non-elites, Draw for Elites
Since Non-elites don't see any additional bonus miles, United is probably the winner (for 2005) with its lower award level. United, however, hasn't announced changes for 2005. For the 2004 levels, I think UA and NW is a draw. For frequent flyers, however, it would be a wash. NW provides more mileage earning opportunties(flown miles, bonus elite miles and non-flown promotion) than UA, but due to an upcoming 2005 increase in redemption level, NW elites may need to cough up more miles. UA hasn't announced any award changes yet, but despite its current lower redemption levels, United doesn't give out as much elite bonus miles as NW. In addition, United has less "non-flight" bonus miles earning opportunities.

Jiburi '04

That has been my experience as well. Miles and taxes are redeposited and the miles, fees, and taxes are recalculated based on the availability of the new dates. I am 100% positive that a change (past Mar 05) to later dates requires the new charges/levels.

However, booking before the effective date (Mar 05) for a flight past this date triggers the old charges.

I hope everyone is sending in comments through the "talk to us" page -- that's the feedback that NW needs to know it matters.

Steve

This makes no sense. If both NW and UA both give 100% EQM, how can the conclusion be "ADVANTAGE NW"?

UA already has announced 2005 Mileage Plus changes. There is no increase in redemption levels and there is nothing to suggest that this will change. Further, to say that NW provides more mileage earning opportunities is completely subjective. UA has/had a number of mileage promotions (Early Bird, etc) along with everyday online booking bonuses. In this case, your mileage really does vary.

If you think about the whole "change" more clearly. More EQM = More Elite = Even harder to get award seat. The rules of NW is similar to UA, but UA award get you to all Star alliance Premium Cabin, while NW gets you limited. Also, UA's intra-Aisa award chart is far more reasonable than NW. A First class award from HKG to NRT is still 40,000 miles on UA flights, and they can be quite easily found.


I still have some NW miles on hand, and I don't really plan to fly them anymore in the near future.

Because it takes 25,000 less of them to qualify for the highest level of elite membership.

while i'm inclined to agree with the "ua blows nw out of the water," sentiments that are being expressed by roughly half the posters here, intra-asia award travel is one area in which i have to side with nw, mainly because nw serves more destinations out of nrt than ua. with ua, you can use *a partners, but those awards aren't as good a value, especially if you fly between zones.

True, to be 1K you need 100k EQM on UA.

However, benefits of 1K greatly exceed NW's Plat if you fly international.

How about some nice SWU (system wide free upgrades) certificates to begin with?

Agree with all those who consider this a major devaluation. I'm particularly troubled by the lack of Asia-Hawai'i and intra-Asia awards info. All areas except CONUS have taken major hits.

But that really has nothing to do with Elite Qualifying Miles and how they are earned. To compare elite tiers between NW and UA is a whole other subject.

Taken out of the context of elite level qualification, a discussion of EQMs is utterly meaningless. They can't be used for anything else.

On another note: I assume it's an error, but the new Standard Awards chart lists "N/C" for J awards from US/Caribbean/Mexico/Central America to Hawaii, and "N/A" for F. The current chart says "N/A" for J and 75k for F. Taken literally, that would mean that there are no longer any non-RuleBuster awards to Hawaii from North America.

Did I read it right that the standard award in the US(49) has doubled to 50,000 miles on Jan 1st and that on March 1st there is no change and it will be $50,000 from now on?

no

I'm thinking it's got to be a typo as well. Perhaps it should be N/C - N/A - N/C for standard award from US 49 to Hawaii.

But looking at elite level qualifications without looking at the benefits is also rather meaningless. UA does require 100K vs NW's 75K for top tier, but the two tiers offer very different benefits.

Silly Question:

Does the March 1, 2005 effective date for the higher Asia WBC awards refer to date of travel or date of ticketing?

Also, has anyone noticed the lack of trans-pacific WBC availability in January and February 2005 since this announcement? My online search keeps turning up nothing, even with full date flexibility, to take advantage of the lower mileage requirement. [I've been searching ex-SFO to NRT, TPE, HKG so far and can't find anything, even with full date flexibility]

It refers to date of ticketing. Ticket before March 1, 2005 and you'll get the lower cost. After (including deciding to change a ticket issued before the date) it will cost the new amount of miles.

Ticketing.

I agree it's definitely another subject. And it depends upon where you are and what type of travel you do. I live in a market where NW has 40% of the market and 14 out of 15 flights are mainline jets, most of my travel is domestic and the hubs are conveniently located for me. Meanwhile, UA offers hellish CRJ's and the occasional ARJ (1-class) through the hell that is ORD and their prices aren't competitive. Therefore, in my case the fact that NW requires less EQM is almost irrelevant because I'd be flying them anyway.

However, there are people that are obviously on both sides of the fence as to which program offers better top tier benefits. But irrefutably it's easier to get there on NW and that's going to affect how you view the benefits.

Europe to Africa /Indian Subcontinent/ Middle East is 70,000 miles. AA's got it for 40k, UA and BA for 50k and NW for 70k?!?

This is pretty ridiculous. Coupon connection could be a pretty mutually beneficial mileage saving opportunity.

I fail to understand that too -- especially given the fact that paid fares from California to Australia are at very reasonable levels in coach. 100k miles for a fligth that UA will sell for $700. I don't think I will be taking up that option.

Confirmed tonight... MH is still a NW partner, the new award structure will apply to them as well.

that's cool. i doubt there will be too many takers for their new J awards since F is the same price (i'm pretty sure others have pointed out such in this thread as well).

This has already been happening in 2004. I am a CO Plat, use my status as a CO Plat for upgrades, but have all flights deposited in my NW account. I'll unfortunately be Gold this year because I always earned my Plat status via segments on CO... And the move NW made to allow all fares to qualify for EQS is perfect for a guy that does a lot of east coast, short haul travels.

NW already makes it easy for a CO Plat to convert, and I would suggest to anyone who's fed up with CO to make that change... I did, and its been worth it.

RuleBuster Awards(waives MOST capacity controls).
on UA, Standard Award doesn't have ANY capcity control.

NW Standard Award Flights within or between North Asia and South Asia on Korean Air require 50,000 miles for Coach, 70,000 miles for Business and 100,000 miles for First Class.
The comparable UA Saver Award on ANY star-alliance flights operate out of NRT requires 40,000 , 60,000 and 80,000 only.

Also, NW doesn't even operate an F class product within Asia.

If NW has not changed, UA's *A partner within Asia might not be a good value, but NW has changed to the ever confusing new chart, and requiring a LOT more miles than before.

I was perusing my credit card account, and noticed that NW has charged my credit card the $5 booking free for my award. Now it hasn't "cleared" yet, but I'm pretty sure I'll have to call them to get it taken off. Yet more fun.

All a big mistake?
 

In response to my letter explaining my displeasure with the new award levels, I received the following e-mail:

Dear TRVLRZ,

We are sorry, to hear about your dissatisfaction with our program. What
award fare increase are you referring to? Travel within the
Continental US is still 25,000 award miles.

Thank you for choosing Northwest/KLM Airlines. We appreciate your
business.

Sincerely,

Bob @@@@@@
Correspondence Specialist
WorldPerks Customer Service Center

According to the correspondence Specialist, continental us awards are still only 25,000 miles and they are not aware of any other increases? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

well, yeah, but this thread has nothing to do with domestic Y awards. it's the asia, europe, and s. america changes that have people fuming.

your facts are valid, of course, but the awards i was referring to when you quoted me were the 20/30/40k intra-asia awards of old (aa, nw, and ua all used to let people travel around asia for a pittance). the situation has steadily worsened throughout the industry, but NW still lets pax fly on any route in asia -for which it publishes fares- for 20k in y and 30k in c. plus you can split the legs (i usually do y on morning flights and c in the evening). this can be a great value if you live in shanghai and need to get to tokyo for a few days. ua is still comparable in this regard; however nw wins because it has great coverage out of nrt (ua doesn't even fly between japan and china any more). as you point out, *a awards on ua provide a lot of flexibility, but they are more expensive.

Yes, that and the fact that they did not know about any award changes were the ironic part of the whole letter sent to me. ;)

I completely get your point now! Yes, NW has more flights out of NRT, but if you think about flights such as HKG - BKK/ HKG - SIN or SIN - BKK, Star Alliance flights are better choice. I mean, the new changes to NW's award chart is just ridiculous......