Locked thread and AC cert giveaway
 

From yet another locked thread:

"Discussion of moderation -- as in several of the most recent replies -- is hardly the subject of the Air Canada Aeroplan forum even under the most liberal of interpretations. Issues of moderation can be taken up with our host."

Why can we not question or dicsuss decisions made by moderators? I believe my request about leaving cert giveaways within the forum was made reasonably, fairly and without offence to anyone. The question was related to Aeroplan, in the sense of the unique nature of Air Canada upgrade certificates that cannot be used by anyone without AC status, and also to the nature of this forum. I don't see why a question about this issue is so bad, nor a public discussion around it.

FBYVR, I'm confused as to what you're talking about?

Giving away AC UG certs for free is perfectly ok to do, because we're not selling them. People on this forum also ask others if they have any spare certs that they are willing to give away... so are people saying that you're not allowed to ask for certs either (because it is essentially the same thing)? Confused... :confused:

Since you are in need of discussion, and I really don't think that metadiscussion belongs in the miles and points forums (nor do I want one closure of a raucous thread to spawn additional threads that distract members), I'm going to move this to the Only Randy Petersen forum.

If he chooses, he can comment on why coupon giveaways don't belong in a specific airline forum (as he's done in the past). Or he can correct a misunderstanding. BUt let's not drag the forum into this discussion.

Thanks,
Gary

yyznomad - it is kind of something and nothing but any threads relating to certificates are now being moved by a mega moderator to the Coupon Connection board. I have raised the question that in the case of AC upgrades (that cannot be used by anyone without status) it makes more sense to post in the AC forum about these. Often people assume that AC are like UA and can be used by anyone, and thus lots of unncessary messages are generated to the OP around this. Also, I think there has been a tradition of give away within this forum that does not always exist within the CC forum. To me it has always felt good to give and receive on this forum. However, it appears there is no flexibilty nor understanding on the part of the moderators over this issue, and any questioning of a moderators decision seems to result in a locking of a thread or perhaps a banning.

Oh ok... I understand now.
I agree with you, FBYVR. It only makes sense this way. AC upgrade certs and their usage are different than other airline upgrade certs. In addition, yes, it does bring a sense of kindness and good-will to this forum. Unfortunately though, we are under the mercy of the moderators, but I hope maybe there's a mechanism in where we can meet halfway on this? Perhaps a compromise? Perhaps have a sticky on AC cert giveaways with some rules attached to it (i.e. no selling of certs, no selling of points, etc.)? Just thinking out loud...

I too would voice my concerns about moving the "giveaway" threads to CC. I don't think it is appropriate if for any reason but the fact that we have a kinda a "help each other" type of culture.

I agree that it makes absolutely no sense to move AC cert/pass giveaways or trades to the CC. Only AC status fliers can use them so it makes no sense. I can't recall anyone wanting to trade certs for car rentals or hotels. We either give them away for free or establish a fair trade value. When they are given away they more often than not go to regular posters in our forum and only ask for people to pay it forward when they can.

Putting otherwise useless certs onto the coupon connection is only going to add confusion for the members there as they won't be able to use them which a) frustrates someone who can't use a cert they were counting on b) takes away a cert from someone who could benefit from it.

No one was being hurt the way we did it in the past and no one will be hurt in the future. If they fly AC and want certs why aren't' they visiting the AC board to begin with where they would see them clear as day?

A discussion on this subject is warranted
 

Given that this subject in this forum has moderator approval, I will add my voice (to my alrady submitted private message to a moderator) and say that the original decision to move the threads in question was a mistake and hope that we can get back to normal soon.

I just have a quick question regarding this ordeal, but let me see if I get things straight

• The certificates in question, cannot be used by anyone else, but a member of aeroplan with elite status
• I am certain that there are similar coupons for other airlines, that cannot be used unless you have elite status
• Everyone else uses CC for their exchanges

Why should AC be the exception?

:confused:

And the answer of "it's the way it's always been done" is not a valid one, CC was designed for that purpose, to cover all travel related exchanges.

Is it really such a bad answer? It encouraged a spirit of giving and community on the forum for specific AC items. No-one was bothered and it seems most liked it. Why bother messing with it? Does every forum have to be the same - I am not sure there is anything wrong with AC being different - though you suggest this is a bad thing?
Also there is history on the CC forum where AC certs always caused so much confusion (mainly with UA certs using similar designations) that posters were often advised (with success) to go to the AC forum. I think they probably are one of the few airline certs that do tend to be given away, as only a few people can use them.
Why would you worry about this except because you are a moderator?

Worried, I am not.

What concerns me is that gleff's action is being looked at in such a negative way.

It's not bad per se that you want to limit the certificates for AC members only, but AC is a public forum, the same way that CC is.

Then again, by moving it to CC, you have the 100 post minimum, which should eliminate some of those duplicate posters that have appeared in occasion at the AC forum, trying to scam certificates.

You can always make a guideline of how the certs work, and have it posted in the stickies that are in the CC forum.

Who knows, by isolating your certs to AC only, you could be missing on some really good opportunity ;)

The AC Forum is an exception in many ways and it works very well that way. Giving away coupons that are of value to no-one other than AC Status Members, news topics of interest primarily to Canadians, recipes, where to stay, local information (such as which is better taxi or limo?) are all exceptions to the TOS but hurt no-one.

If the AC Forum is to remain as quirky, unique and helpful as it is, then threads like giving away AC certs need to remain in that forum.

Ever hear of a little thing called "Distinct society" :eek:

Oh and by the way, it was not Gleff's actions that started all of this.

The AC forum is unique and Randy himself has commented on this fact. Also, why should every forum be the same? Should we be forced to stick to the TOS then all the people who come the AC forum for help as Maple Leaf said would be be out of luck. Would you suggest that FT is hurt or helped by the helpfulness of the AC group? Does the wide ranging info given out by the AC forum actually go to the spirit of FT or hurt it? You know, travelers helping travelers ;)

You suggest that we might benefit from offering certs on the CC. Maybe that's the biggest difference between us and the rest of the board (in general). We don't expect anything or want anything more in return for giving our certs away to other travelers That may not be in the TOS but it is far more noble than the rules being enforced IMHO

So, if those are Randy's wishes, we will abide by them. I just can't believe that one little thread that was moved is the source of such controversy. So, it was moved, if this is against what is the nature of AC, it won't happen again, no big deal. We all can make mistakes, I am sure we all have ;)

So, what was it then?

I could be said that "coming of age" on the AC board is when posters give away their certs. It forms one of the building blocks of the boards society. Many first time posters begin by giving away their certs , and what better place (the same place it has always been)the AC board/community.

The direction FT and the AC forum has taken with the uber moderation lately, makes lose a great deal of interest in FT.

I have contributed many certs, bought a ticket for someone who was in dire straights, received the odd cert, given some good advice, received much advice, met some very interesting people, made some friendships. This has all taken place in our unmoderated AC forum, where we are perfectly capable of looking after ourselves, including chasing away skirtchasers et all.

Gleff and co, you have made a mistake. We all do, I try to limit mine to 10 a day, I admit to them, fix them and move on. Hopefully you can do the same. ^

At the risk of draging this thread OT, why is it this FTer gets to slur another member with a serious attack such as this:

Originally Posted by MapleLeaf
Parnel may have been a good contributor here on AC but on other forums he was rude, homophobic, racist and took the opportunity to slam anyone who didn't agree with him or his opinions. Now I don't know what was said this last time as he has been on my ignore list for quite some time, but given he was banned in a forum where anything goes, it must have been something.

Maybe FT should be set up where you can be banned from only specific forums and not others? Then again the weekend trolls will just jump from forum to forum causing problems.

while others have been banned for what have been arguably more minor infractions? If the rules are to be applied, they should be applied fairly. And don't misunderstand as I'm not pretending in any way shape or form I'm as pure as the driven slush here in YEG, but I've never directed such a direct personal attack on another poster's character as was done in this case. Deleting the offending passage and issuing a warning, if that was done, seems a light sentence given the gravity of the post.

But that's just my two cents and this board is ultimately RP's to run as he sees fit.

taupo:

Vigilante justice with chasing away skirtchasers, rdconsulting, and the like ... you think it's merely the AC forum "regulars" that helped get rid of the problem? You forget that the moderators can and do help. Please remember that we're just regular members too.

FewMiles..

The "Report Post" function (click the red/white triangle icon in the bottom left of the post in question) works well to alert the moderators (senior mods, in the case of forums without regular moderators). If you use this, you might just find the problem dealt with.

FewMiles..

I'm familiar with the feature. My question had more to do with how violations of TOS are handled rather than how to report them.

So the AC forum's "self moderation" is the preferred course of action unless someone does something that annoys you (or one of your friends)?

Can you have it both ways? :confused:

The quoted text from MapleLeaf was deleted and the thread was locked.

I understand that certain members campaign for the suspension of other members, but it's inappropriate to discuss such things publicly.

Moreover, I am not trying to be moderator of the Air Canada forum. On the one hand, folks vehemently argue against any moderation and then on the other complain that moderators haven't suspended a member for posting content.

I first stepped in when one member told another member to Shut the F Up. I also stepped in when there was some nasty discussion of a member who had been suspended - discussion of members and slamming of members has no place in the Air Canada or any other forum. The number of folks asking for a reaction to one of the posts in that thread supports that members are actually appreciative of occasional intervention. Then when a thread started to question the closing of threads, I moved it here.

I am 100% interested in helping members and protecting them from being attacked so that they can enjoy the forum. I am not looking to play any greater role than that.

Regards,
Gary

It is something of a shame this thread got into the banning debate, my concern was more with what I saw as unnecesary trivial moderation (the relatively small issue of the UG cert threads, and what I see as a refusal of the moderator to listen to the argument for not moving these to CC).

As an unmoderated forum I thought we were able to self-moderate ourselves over such small things, and I was surprised that senior moderators found it necessary or worth their time to intervene and meddle with such harmless things - and not to discuss this (I really did not think it merited wasting RP's time over). To me that made AC feel very like a fully moderated forum.

Until this thread got sidetracked I was thinking that it was nice how much agreement on the issue there was from people who often do not agree on the forum, and I am sorry it got onto an entirely different subject. My own personal sense would be that as an unmoderated forum there should only be a need for senior moderator intervention in serious cases of abuse etc, and not for small things like trying to give away certs etc. In this regard we moderate ourselves well I think (I know a moderator banned skirtchasers, but even here no-one was ever going to give them a cert and the opinion of the forum to that individual was made very clear quickly).

But why wasn't said member further disciplined?

What opportunity? To give (GIVE, not TRADE) our certs, lounge passes, etc. away to people we don't know? To say nothing of the fact that I am sure many, many of us don't skim around the other forums, so we in fact would miss the opportunity to take advantage of these generous offers, as many of us have done (both the giving and the receiving).

To me, and I'm sure may others, this is no different than the discussion of WS, SG, the Maple Leafs, etc. on the AC board. It's part of what defines us. Respectfully, I would ask that not be further spoiled.

Simon

Spoiled :confused:

All I am saying is that the way the rest of FT works is by using CC for all trades. If the AC forum likes to give them away, so be it.

Not trying to understand how AC forum works, as I rarely frequent it, I am close to south of the border, not north of the border ;)

So, I guess this case is closed, hope you all can understand why action was taken, and we will try to keep AC the happy forum it always has been :)

I think people are wondering why there was proactive moderation of a seeming harmless long standing practice (trading certs), but no action taken against something clearly against the TOS.

While there is near universal agreement that the AC forum does not want moderation (and wants to keep the cert trading in house), if we are having it forced upon us, we would like it to be as even as possible.

PS - This is my first post to a discussion such as this so please feel free to edit as required.

Actually, I tihnk some action was taken if you're referring to the quote I think you are. As mentioned earlier, it was edited out. A quote of the quote was edited out. The thread where it and other unpleasantries were was closed with a request that members not engage in such things.

As far as any other discussions with individual members and whether some folks here think that other folks deserve timeouts, those kinds of things are private between moderators and individual members so I will not comment on specific cases here.

Again, I think there was action taken.

But speaking only for myself, I don't read through every reply in the Air Canada forum. I am not applying to Randy to serve as moderator of that forum. So I'm not looking to police all of the threads there. So please don't assume that because action hasn't been taken in a thread or with a post that there's tacit acceptance that any particular post is 'okay'.

One member yesterday emailed me wanting to know why a particular comment was allowed to stand for a couple of hours. The truth is that I hadn't seen it yet. Then a member used the report-a-post function and that drew my attention.

When members have concerns they're welcome to use the report-a-post function, it's really quite useful. When there's a real "fire" that folks believe needs attention, that's the way to grab it. But there isn't oging to be a sleuth of proactive moderation in the forum to the extent that there isn't anyone assigned there full-time.

I hope that's not too unsatisfying of an answer.

Best,
Gary

Not unsatisfying at all. Thanks for taking the time to explain. ^

I think your post (and others from mods here) highlights why there was such a reaction from the AC forum. Since you, or none of the other mods are regulars on the forum, the appearance of actions to those of us who spend (too much) time on it is inconsistency. This is probably just a timing issue, and since it seems to work out in the end, perhaps the point is moot...

If there is going to be moderation of the AC forum, regardless of how much we fight against it, then let's just do it. At least then we will have someone who spends enough time there to understand and be connected to our little community and take action that we see to be consistent. And we can get back to talking about points and miles (and all else Canadian) in our little isolationist world.

That being said, I'm against the idea of moderation in the AC forum...and I'm definitely not volunteering. :D

:confused: So since AC is an unmoderated board, I am unable, you're suggesting, to ask a question about penalties for TOS violations?

I sincerely hope this statement does not portend the division of the Air Canada forum into two separate FlyerTalk forums:

• Air Canada — Québec
• Air Canada — Remainder of Canada

Let me offer some clarification, re the placement of upgrade or other coupon giveaways or proposed exchanges:

1. There were exactly two threads offering upgrades that were moved to Coupon Connection by me. They came to my attention when someone used the "Report Bad Post" feature concerning the two threads.

2. Those two threads were not "locked." A re-direct for them remains in the AC forum.

3. Randy Petersen has said that he prefers
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showp...0&postcount=26
all "coupon" offers to be in Coupon Connection (bolding mine):



It is only appropriate and gracious for Randy's volunteer staff moderators to follow his wishes, no?

4. While Randy's "regardless of origin or program involved" settles the issue imo, I would also comment that I believe the "special" nature of AC upgrades and the fact that they have this or that restriction is just not that different from certain other airline or hote upgrades or other certs that get offered on Coupon Connection. Those interested in such certs can learn the restrictions. If those offering such certs don't wish to be bothered with responding to questions about who can use the certs, then don't answer the questions that get asked of you.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify what is, after all, simply not that big a deal, imo. Threads get moved to the appropriate forum every day on FlyerTalk. It's helpful to the members. It honors the owner's wishes. It helps keep things orderly. Why is this particular case such a huge deal that causes some folks (naming no names here) to send borderline abusive PM's to me about how horrible this all is?

Regards,

cblaisd
Senior Moderator, and
Moderator, United and Coupon Connection

I didn't know there was a Senor Jefe in FT :eek:

It could be a handle my dad would use

:p

No, I was just wondering if you were in the "leave us alone, don't worry about the TOS, we'll take care of it ourselves camp" or in the "I want a moderator camp".

How about....... "the we want the TOS applied evenly camp with regards to violations".

Neither, since you asked. I'm in the "leave things the way they are" camp as for the most part I feel things work well without full-time moderation. And since signing on my opinion on the subject has changed a few times, I'll admit. And BTW, I don't think there's in any way a general disregard for TOS among forum participants, or an expectation that anything can be said without fear of punishment. I was just asking why so flagrant an attack has gone seemingly unpunished while other arguably more minor cases in recent months resulted in time outs being given.

Thanks for the reply. I thought that gleff had already answered the question as to why the post was initially left (and subsequently removed).

In my former career as a mod, as far a bannings/suspensions/punishment go, every case is different. I also know that in every case it is between the mod and the poster (and sometimes Randy), not the railbirds...

Back in the day, when we could give away upgrades to whomever we wished, wherever we wished, on FT, I loved to gift my "program mates" with my excess bennies.

When the rules changed, requiring all offerings to be posted on CC, I quit offering any perks on FT. I hate posting freebies on CC because I always get inundated with e-mails from people I don't know and (based on the greedy tone of their requests) honestly don't want to know.

Here is one sad result--today we allowed 4 UA SWUs to expire rather than offer them up on CC.

I don't understand the logic for these FT restrictions and, until it is clarified, I just prefer to not participate in CC.

As a result, everybody loses. :(

Not everybody.