On BA, "OK" does not mean confirmed...
Jul 11, 2002, 1:49 pm
#46
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Gas to the fire! Gas to the fire!
I don't get this insistent use of the "rush to the funeral" argument. As far as I know, people don't announce their deaths with 7/14/21-day advance notice, and thus people going to a funeral would be likely paying more full-boat like fares, and thus more likely to get better treatment from the airlines anyway? I think there is alignment there.
Of course, one could use miles on short notice, but I don't think this would be the rule, more the exception, given that most people don't have enough miles sitting around for such trips, and the likelihood of finding open seats that can be bought with miles decreases as the flight date approaches.
I don't get this insistent use of the "rush to the funeral" argument. As far as I know, people don't announce their deaths with 7/14/21-day advance notice, and thus people going to a funeral would be likely paying more full-boat like fares, and thus more likely to get better treatment from the airlines anyway? I think there is alignment there.
Of course, one could use miles on short notice, but I don't think this would be the rule, more the exception, given that most people don't have enough miles sitting around for such trips, and the likelihood of finding open seats that can be bought with miles decreases as the flight date approaches.
Jul 11, 2002, 3:58 pm
#47
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The Contract of Carriage you refer to, I believe includes verbiage from the 1920's "Warsaw Convention", which might be due for another update, (I think the last update was in the mid 50's). It NEVER addressed pecking order to reaccomodate distressed passengers. Also, I know of no airlines whose contract of carriage states anything close to "We reserve the right to reaccomodate in the pecking order we determine". The language just isn't there. Regarding "force majeure" events, that verbiage ALSO doesn't address pecking order to reaccomodate. I'm aware that airlines have very little obligation to do much... but they STILL DON'T address the issue of the pecking order, or of DISCLOSING the pecking order. All of these legal subjects/documents are SILENT on pecking order. Also, "you will be rerouted on the next available flight" STILL doesn't address the pecking order. So the airlines are free to make it up as they go along. I suppose it can vary from gate to gate, airline to airline. There is NO uniform policy, no LAWS regulating or even requiring disclosure. This is what is wrong.
Jim
Jim
Jul 11, 2002, 4:29 pm
#48
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flyrights:
From reading this thread, I don't think it matters whether they choose it by status, or by who checks in first, or by drawing names out of a hat. You wouldn't be complaining if you had gone out on the next flight.
Suppose your complaints, though, get heard. Let's say that they decide to do it in order of who checks in first for a flight, let's say, JFK-SFO. Of course, if you're flying that route and it gets cancelled, you may well have showed up two hours early and checked in first, but - guess what - the 12 people who are flying in from LHR (and checked in there) will get priority over you.
Somehow, I think people will complain because it's not fair that other people got a four or five hour time zone advantage that they didn't get.
The reality of the situation - not everything works out the way we want it to in life. Some people take what they get and go on. Other people will jump and scream until they get their way, no matter how unreasonable.
I think we know where the cards fall on this one.
Mike
From reading this thread, I don't think it matters whether they choose it by status, or by who checks in first, or by drawing names out of a hat. You wouldn't be complaining if you had gone out on the next flight.
Suppose your complaints, though, get heard. Let's say that they decide to do it in order of who checks in first for a flight, let's say, JFK-SFO. Of course, if you're flying that route and it gets cancelled, you may well have showed up two hours early and checked in first, but - guess what - the 12 people who are flying in from LHR (and checked in there) will get priority over you.
Somehow, I think people will complain because it's not fair that other people got a four or five hour time zone advantage that they didn't get.
The reality of the situation - not everything works out the way we want it to in life. Some people take what they get and go on. Other people will jump and scream until they get their way, no matter how unreasonable.
I think we know where the cards fall on this one.
Mike
Jul 11, 2002, 5:17 pm
#49
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I must say that this thread is hysterically funny - the very idea that anyone not living on a commune would think that businesses don't reward their best customers and give them preference over others is astounding. You have all tried to make the point, but it is not going to stick with flyright. Here are a few more for you.
FYI - I assume that if you ever on an overbooked flight, that you will immediately volunteer your seat if the bumped PAX had made their reservation before yours. Also, since this would be the only FAIR response for you, I am sure that you would refuse to accept any compensation from the airline for volunteering.
Jul 11, 2002, 5:20 pm
#50
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You know what I want to complain about? Have you ever been in one of them airplane-thingys, and seen them big-... seats they got in the front of the plane? You ever notice how they let some of the people sit there and not others? Geez! And then they serve them better food too! I think this is discrimination!!!! I need me a lawyer! I wanna sue! (Hold on, I am a lawyer.----and I'd have a fool for a client if I filed suit on any of these preposterous theories too.)
Djlawman
[This message has been edited by Djlawman (edited 07-11-2002).]
Djlawman
[This message has been edited by Djlawman (edited 07-11-2002).]
Jul 11, 2002, 5:32 pm
#51
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flyrights:
Remember, FIRST CLASS passengers are paying for more ROOM, and better FOOD ONLY... </font>
Remember, FIRST CLASS passengers are paying for more ROOM, and better FOOD ONLY... </font>
Look, I know you were ticked off when it happened. I probably wouldn't have been happy, either. But four days later??? Let it go...
[This message has been edited by SuperSlug (edited 07-11-2002).]
Jul 11, 2002, 6:14 pm
#52
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Djlawman:
You know what I want to complain about? Have you ever been in one of them airplane-thingys, and seen them big-... seats they got in the front of the plane? You ever notice how they let some of the people sit there and not others? Geez! And then they serve them better food too! I think this is discrimination!!!! I need me a lawyer! I wanna sue! (Hold on, I am a lawyer.----and I'd have a food for a client if I filed suit on any of these preposterous theories too.)
Djlawman</font>
You know what I want to complain about? Have you ever been in one of them airplane-thingys, and seen them big-... seats they got in the front of the plane? You ever notice how they let some of the people sit there and not others? Geez! And then they serve them better food too! I think this is discrimination!!!! I need me a lawyer! I wanna sue! (Hold on, I am a lawyer.----and I'd have a food for a client if I filed suit on any of these preposterous theories too.)
Djlawman</font>
If the law thingy does not work out, you just might consider stand up comedy!! Well done.
Jul 11, 2002, 7:19 pm
#53
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flyrights:
The Contract of Carriage you refer to, I believe includes verbiage from the 1920's "Warsaw Convention", which might be due for another update, (I think the last update was in the mid 50's). It NEVER addressed pecking order to reaccomodate distressed passengers. Also, I know of no airlines whose contract of carriage states anything close to "We reserve the right to reaccomodate in the pecking order we determine". The language just isn't there. Regarding "force majeure" events, that verbiage ALSO doesn't address pecking order to reaccomodate. I'm aware that airlines have very little obligation to do much... but they STILL DON'T address the issue of the pecking order, or of DISCLOSING the pecking order. All of these legal subjects/documents are SILENT on pecking order. Also, "you will be rerouted on the next available flight" STILL doesn't address the pecking order. So the airlines are free to make it up as they go along. I suppose it can vary from gate to gate, airline to airline. There is NO uniform policy, no LAWS regulating or even requiring disclosure. This is what is wrong.
Jim</font>
The Contract of Carriage you refer to, I believe includes verbiage from the 1920's "Warsaw Convention", which might be due for another update, (I think the last update was in the mid 50's). It NEVER addressed pecking order to reaccomodate distressed passengers. Also, I know of no airlines whose contract of carriage states anything close to "We reserve the right to reaccomodate in the pecking order we determine". The language just isn't there. Regarding "force majeure" events, that verbiage ALSO doesn't address pecking order to reaccomodate. I'm aware that airlines have very little obligation to do much... but they STILL DON'T address the issue of the pecking order, or of DISCLOSING the pecking order. All of these legal subjects/documents are SILENT on pecking order. Also, "you will be rerouted on the next available flight" STILL doesn't address the pecking order. So the airlines are free to make it up as they go along. I suppose it can vary from gate to gate, airline to airline. There is NO uniform policy, no LAWS regulating or even requiring disclosure. This is what is wrong.
Jim</font>
In any case, the plain english of "available seats" seem to be too confusing for you.
Have you heard of this thing called "fare class"? Just because there's an empty seat on an airplane doesn't make it available to you if your ticket is in the wrong fare class.
A frequent traveler such as yourself should understand such basics, unless you're simply putting on blinders in an effort to provoke a response.
[This message has been edited by Plato90s (edited 07-11-2002).]
Jul 12, 2002, 8:47 am
#54
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Firstly, I regret that the title of the Topic here should probably more accurately have been something relating to PECKING ORDER DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENT.
And, no, I wouldn't give up my seat to someone who checked in earlier than I did, unless there were a REQUIREMENT, to be followed uniformely by all, that they do the same, in some reasonable and logical order. After reading this thread, I should have made it clearer that TIME OF CHECK IN, was just an example of some NON-random, NON-partial method of POSSIBLY determing priority. I admit I still can't think of any way that's truly fair to everyone to determine who should get PRIOIRTY for the "NEXT AVAILABLE FLIGHT" in distress situations. What I was going for by SUGGESTING time of check in, was that perhaps the people who had been TRAVELING for the longest amount of time might make a valid argument that they need to get to some destination as early as possible. That is, say someone checked in the day before in say San Diego, on their way to Berlin via Los Angeles and London--they might be more exhausted than someone who connected in London to Berlin from say Dublin. That's why I thought maybe the airlines should try to get the people travling the longest, or who checked in the earliest on the FIRST AVAILABLE FLIGHT. Maybe that's reasonable and fair. I'm still not certain if it is, but I KNOW the airlines arbitrairly making up rules as they go along, and just giving the first available seats based on fare paid, is WRONG.
Also, Yes, I believe First Class passengers are only entitled to better food, larger seats, access to lounges and shorter/VIP check in lines. However, in distressed situations, there is NOTHING in any legal document that gives them any more rights to jump to the TOP OF THE PECKING order. That is, First Class passengers don't somehow automatically have MORE rebooking rights than anyone else.
And Yes, I understand what the term "available seats" means, in plain English, but remember, when there aren't ENOUGH "available seats" in distressed situations, there should be some KNOWN policy disclosed of EXACTLY what order or priority is given. It has to be fair. It has to be in their Contracts of Carriage. We can't trust the airlines to decide things like this on their own. Look at CORPORATE AMERICA in recent weeks: (Martha Stewart, Enron, Adelphia Cable, etc.). They can't be trusted to police themselves, so we need RULES AND LAWS AND CONTRACTS, disclosed, and applied fairly to everyone.
I stand by my statement that the "Warsaw Convention" (of the 1920's) is referenced on all airline tickets, and is in their contracts of carriage.
Jim
And, no, I wouldn't give up my seat to someone who checked in earlier than I did, unless there were a REQUIREMENT, to be followed uniformely by all, that they do the same, in some reasonable and logical order. After reading this thread, I should have made it clearer that TIME OF CHECK IN, was just an example of some NON-random, NON-partial method of POSSIBLY determing priority. I admit I still can't think of any way that's truly fair to everyone to determine who should get PRIOIRTY for the "NEXT AVAILABLE FLIGHT" in distress situations. What I was going for by SUGGESTING time of check in, was that perhaps the people who had been TRAVELING for the longest amount of time might make a valid argument that they need to get to some destination as early as possible. That is, say someone checked in the day before in say San Diego, on their way to Berlin via Los Angeles and London--they might be more exhausted than someone who connected in London to Berlin from say Dublin. That's why I thought maybe the airlines should try to get the people travling the longest, or who checked in the earliest on the FIRST AVAILABLE FLIGHT. Maybe that's reasonable and fair. I'm still not certain if it is, but I KNOW the airlines arbitrairly making up rules as they go along, and just giving the first available seats based on fare paid, is WRONG.
Also, Yes, I believe First Class passengers are only entitled to better food, larger seats, access to lounges and shorter/VIP check in lines. However, in distressed situations, there is NOTHING in any legal document that gives them any more rights to jump to the TOP OF THE PECKING order. That is, First Class passengers don't somehow automatically have MORE rebooking rights than anyone else.
And Yes, I understand what the term "available seats" means, in plain English, but remember, when there aren't ENOUGH "available seats" in distressed situations, there should be some KNOWN policy disclosed of EXACTLY what order or priority is given. It has to be fair. It has to be in their Contracts of Carriage. We can't trust the airlines to decide things like this on their own. Look at CORPORATE AMERICA in recent weeks: (Martha Stewart, Enron, Adelphia Cable, etc.). They can't be trusted to police themselves, so we need RULES AND LAWS AND CONTRACTS, disclosed, and applied fairly to everyone.
I stand by my statement that the "Warsaw Convention" (of the 1920's) is referenced on all airline tickets, and is in their contracts of carriage.
Jim
Jul 12, 2002, 9:44 am
#55
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Jim,
Each airline does have a policy for boarding priority. All you have to do is call them and ask for the details. If you find that some airlines have a system which you prefer over others then you can give those airlines more of your business.
Each airline does have a policy for boarding priority. All you have to do is call them and ask for the details. If you find that some airlines have a system which you prefer over others then you can give those airlines more of your business.
Jul 12, 2002, 11:26 am
#56
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Jim, be honest.
In all your years of flying, did you worry at all about BA's policy for rebooking passengers in the case of a cancelled flight before you didn't get one of those ten seats?
If so, why didn't you ask them when booking the ticket?
If not, why are you still yelling about BA instead of kicking yourself for not thinking to ask them when booking the ticket?
In all your years of flying, did you worry at all about BA's policy for rebooking passengers in the case of a cancelled flight before you didn't get one of those ten seats?
If so, why didn't you ask them when booking the ticket?
If not, why are you still yelling about BA instead of kicking yourself for not thinking to ask them when booking the ticket?
Jul 12, 2002, 12:05 pm
#57
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Since no one has agreed with the original poster (a very unusual circumstance on Flyertalk, even with the most unusual of opinions) hasn't it become time to assume that the original post should be considered to be in "troll" status?
Jul 12, 2002, 12:15 pm
#58
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Kubla, no, I didn't worry about BA's or any other airlines priority policy before I didn't get one of the ten seats to Berlin... because up until that flight, I WRONGFULLY assumed that the airlines were honorable and treated everyone equitabally. It was only after I realized what they were up to that I became so aware of how discriminatory they continue to be. And had I known, and had I asked them IN ADVANCE, I'm quite certain if I called EVERY OTHER AIRLINE, they would have SIMILAR DISCRIMINATORY policies... I supposed it would have been better NOT to single out BA as the oNLY one that does this... i'm certain they are ALL guilty... If not, I await someone from this Board to paste in some text from some airlines contract of carriage that spells out a FAIR priorty for rebooking policy. It won't happen, because it doesn't exist.
Since this board is mostly frequent flyers, who are greedy and out to get the most they can, (admittedly me too, sometimes), I wouldn't expect anyone to agree that all people should be treated fairly. If there were ANOTHER DISCUSSION BOARD, say for COACH-ONLY travelers, I'm certain 99% of them would write things like, "how dare first class passengers think they have priority over me in canceled flights...just because they paid more doesn't entitle them to step to the front of the line... they only bought one seat, just like me, and since our mutual flight was canceled, they are NOW IN THE SAME BOAT THE REST OF US ARE IN... they deserve no more, no less than anyone else in that situation."
JIM
Since this board is mostly frequent flyers, who are greedy and out to get the most they can, (admittedly me too, sometimes), I wouldn't expect anyone to agree that all people should be treated fairly. If there were ANOTHER DISCUSSION BOARD, say for COACH-ONLY travelers, I'm certain 99% of them would write things like, "how dare first class passengers think they have priority over me in canceled flights...just because they paid more doesn't entitle them to step to the front of the line... they only bought one seat, just like me, and since our mutual flight was canceled, they are NOW IN THE SAME BOAT THE REST OF US ARE IN... they deserve no more, no less than anyone else in that situation."
JIM
Jul 12, 2002, 2:06 pm
#59
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flyrights:
Kubla, no, I didn't worry about BA's or any other airlines priority policy before I didn't get one of the ten seats to Berlin... because up until that flight, I WRONGFULLY assumed that the airlines were honorable and treated everyone equitabally. It was only after I realized what they were up to that I became so aware of how discriminatory they continue to be. And had I known, and had I asked them IN ADVANCE, I'm quite certain if I called EVERY OTHER AIRLINE, they would have SIMILAR DISCRIMINATORY policies... I supposed it would have been better NOT to single out BA as the oNLY one that does this... i'm certain they are ALL guilty... If not, I await someone from this Board to paste in some text from some airlines contract of carriage that spells out a FAIR priorty for rebooking policy. It won't happen, because it doesn't exist.
Since this board is mostly frequent flyers, who are greedy and out to get the most they can, (admittedly me too, sometimes), I wouldn't expect anyone to agree that all people should be treated fairly. If there were ANOTHER DISCUSSION BOARD, say for COACH-ONLY travelers, I'm certain 99% of them would write things like, "how dare first class passengers think they have priority over me in canceled flights...just because they paid more doesn't entitle them to step to the front of the line... they only bought one seat, just like me, and since our mutual flight was canceled, they are NOW IN THE SAME BOAT THE REST OF US ARE IN... they deserve no more, no less than anyone else in that situation."
JIM</font>
Kubla, no, I didn't worry about BA's or any other airlines priority policy before I didn't get one of the ten seats to Berlin... because up until that flight, I WRONGFULLY assumed that the airlines were honorable and treated everyone equitabally. It was only after I realized what they were up to that I became so aware of how discriminatory they continue to be. And had I known, and had I asked them IN ADVANCE, I'm quite certain if I called EVERY OTHER AIRLINE, they would have SIMILAR DISCRIMINATORY policies... I supposed it would have been better NOT to single out BA as the oNLY one that does this... i'm certain they are ALL guilty... If not, I await someone from this Board to paste in some text from some airlines contract of carriage that spells out a FAIR priorty for rebooking policy. It won't happen, because it doesn't exist.
Since this board is mostly frequent flyers, who are greedy and out to get the most they can, (admittedly me too, sometimes), I wouldn't expect anyone to agree that all people should be treated fairly. If there were ANOTHER DISCUSSION BOARD, say for COACH-ONLY travelers, I'm certain 99% of them would write things like, "how dare first class passengers think they have priority over me in canceled flights...just because they paid more doesn't entitle them to step to the front of the line... they only bought one seat, just like me, and since our mutual flight was canceled, they are NOW IN THE SAME BOAT THE REST OF US ARE IN... they deserve no more, no less than anyone else in that situation."
JIM</font>
I really feel like I am reading adaptations from Chairman Mao's Little Red Book
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!
Jul 12, 2002, 2:24 pm
#60
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women and children first. able bodied men last.