On BA, "OK" does not mean confirmed...
Jul 10, 2002, 4:04 pm
#31
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Sorry, flyrights, I can't agree with you either.
It may be wrong or illegal for a government to discriminate based on money, but private companies should and do make choices between different customers based on it. It's called capitalism.
Check-in times aren't really fair anyway. On a flight like the one you mentioned, LHR-Berlin, most of the passengers are going to be connecting. They'll all have checked in when they boarded their original flights, which was probably upwards of 10 hours before the LHR-Berlin flight in question, so it wouldn't really be "fair" to people who weren't connecting and just checked in an hour before the flight.
Part of the reason premium tickets are more expensive is because they bring a lot of other benefits, like top priority in an abnormal schedule/operations condition.
Also, the thread title and your continuous reference to the "OK" status is misleading and incorrect. You had "OK" status for the original flight, but that was canceled. While you still had a valid ticket coupon, you didn't have a reservation on any flight at that point.
Also, everyone has the same chance to get to their destination, but better customers may be able to get their more quickly. Think about whatever line of work you are in. People you do business with more frequently and know better are probably going to get a phone call returned from you more quickly than someone you've never heard of.
"British Airways wouldn't provide a hotel room for the night, nor any meals."
As for this, it sounds like it was a force majeure situation, so BA had no responsibility to provide you with food or a hotel. They didn't cause the problem, they aren't responsible for feeding or lodging you. I got rained out of a Mets game last week, but I didn't ask them to reimburse me for my transportation costs.
d
It may be wrong or illegal for a government to discriminate based on money, but private companies should and do make choices between different customers based on it. It's called capitalism.
Check-in times aren't really fair anyway. On a flight like the one you mentioned, LHR-Berlin, most of the passengers are going to be connecting. They'll all have checked in when they boarded their original flights, which was probably upwards of 10 hours before the LHR-Berlin flight in question, so it wouldn't really be "fair" to people who weren't connecting and just checked in an hour before the flight.
Part of the reason premium tickets are more expensive is because they bring a lot of other benefits, like top priority in an abnormal schedule/operations condition.
Also, the thread title and your continuous reference to the "OK" status is misleading and incorrect. You had "OK" status for the original flight, but that was canceled. While you still had a valid ticket coupon, you didn't have a reservation on any flight at that point.
Also, everyone has the same chance to get to their destination, but better customers may be able to get their more quickly. Think about whatever line of work you are in. People you do business with more frequently and know better are probably going to get a phone call returned from you more quickly than someone you've never heard of.
"British Airways wouldn't provide a hotel room for the night, nor any meals."
As for this, it sounds like it was a force majeure situation, so BA had no responsibility to provide you with food or a hotel. They didn't cause the problem, they aren't responsible for feeding or lodging you. I got rained out of a Mets game last week, but I didn't ask them to reimburse me for my transportation costs.
d
Jul 10, 2002, 4:51 pm
#32
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Thanks for your input...
I said "some impartial way", like order of check in... Admittedly, that may not be the most fair...perhaps a RANDOM drawing to determine who gets to snap up those ten seats would be more fair. Or what about an AUCTION, right there at the gate... Airlines do this all the time to get volunteers to give up their seats... why not simply have an aution at the gate... those who bid the most, get to take the first available flight...all the money goes right to the airline. May not be perfect, but at least it's fair...
And YES, many frequent flyers know the pecking order, but it's NEVER been disclosed on any ticket, or anywhere else. Therefore the airlines have a REAL obligation to DISCLOSE to people exactly what they are buying... if you are buying a ticket with MORE rights, you may want to have that chance... at LEAST, inform the ticket buyer exactly what rights they get or don't get on a particular ticket, and let the consumer decide if they want to buy the ticket or not.
Remember, FIRST CLASS passengers are paying for more ROOM, and better FOOD ONLY... they are NOT paying for the right to bump other passengers...especially when the airlines don't disclose openly that one ticket has a better chance of getting "accomodated" in unusual airport situations.
And yes, everyone had a RIGHT to pay 10 or 20 times and BUY a first class ticket, I agree with that... but it STILL doesn't mean you have bought the right to have priority in unusual situations... Just because someone bought a discounted ticket, even a consolidator ticket, DOES NOT MEAN they have FEWER RIGHTS, becuase THE AIRLINE NEVER DISCLOSED THAT. If airlines DID disclose that, and informed passengers at the time of ticket purchase something like "just so you know, your $200 ticket will give you LOWEST priority in denied boarding situations... if you really have to get there, we highly recommend buying our $3,000 First Class ticket...the choice is yours". If the airlines did that, AT LEAST THEY WOULD BE GIVING FULL AND REASONABLE DISCLOSURE. Right now, it's all a big secret, and it's NOTHING SHORT OF FRAUD not to inform people exactly what they are buying.
And if someone is a LOUNGE CLUB member, and has the right to get to a ticket agent with no line, perhaps that is their right. BUt quite frankly, to be fair and equitable, in unusual situations, LOUNGE members should have to get in the same line as everyone else.
Yes, I've been on this board since 1999, and I am a frequent flyer... about half the time I fly First class, and the other half I don't...
I can tell you that the only time I feel TRULY FAIRLY TREATED, is when I travel on Southwest, which is ONE CLASS... I may not get as wide a seat as on other airlines, or as good a meal, but I DON'T feel discriminated on Southwest. I don't feel like someone has a right to cut in front of mine, which is wrong.
Thanks for your input.
Jim
I said "some impartial way", like order of check in... Admittedly, that may not be the most fair...perhaps a RANDOM drawing to determine who gets to snap up those ten seats would be more fair. Or what about an AUCTION, right there at the gate... Airlines do this all the time to get volunteers to give up their seats... why not simply have an aution at the gate... those who bid the most, get to take the first available flight...all the money goes right to the airline. May not be perfect, but at least it's fair...
And YES, many frequent flyers know the pecking order, but it's NEVER been disclosed on any ticket, or anywhere else. Therefore the airlines have a REAL obligation to DISCLOSE to people exactly what they are buying... if you are buying a ticket with MORE rights, you may want to have that chance... at LEAST, inform the ticket buyer exactly what rights they get or don't get on a particular ticket, and let the consumer decide if they want to buy the ticket or not.
Remember, FIRST CLASS passengers are paying for more ROOM, and better FOOD ONLY... they are NOT paying for the right to bump other passengers...especially when the airlines don't disclose openly that one ticket has a better chance of getting "accomodated" in unusual airport situations.
And yes, everyone had a RIGHT to pay 10 or 20 times and BUY a first class ticket, I agree with that... but it STILL doesn't mean you have bought the right to have priority in unusual situations... Just because someone bought a discounted ticket, even a consolidator ticket, DOES NOT MEAN they have FEWER RIGHTS, becuase THE AIRLINE NEVER DISCLOSED THAT. If airlines DID disclose that, and informed passengers at the time of ticket purchase something like "just so you know, your $200 ticket will give you LOWEST priority in denied boarding situations... if you really have to get there, we highly recommend buying our $3,000 First Class ticket...the choice is yours". If the airlines did that, AT LEAST THEY WOULD BE GIVING FULL AND REASONABLE DISCLOSURE. Right now, it's all a big secret, and it's NOTHING SHORT OF FRAUD not to inform people exactly what they are buying.
And if someone is a LOUNGE CLUB member, and has the right to get to a ticket agent with no line, perhaps that is their right. BUt quite frankly, to be fair and equitable, in unusual situations, LOUNGE members should have to get in the same line as everyone else.
Yes, I've been on this board since 1999, and I am a frequent flyer... about half the time I fly First class, and the other half I don't...
I can tell you that the only time I feel TRULY FAIRLY TREATED, is when I travel on Southwest, which is ONE CLASS... I may not get as wide a seat as on other airlines, or as good a meal, but I DON'T feel discriminated on Southwest. I don't feel like someone has a right to cut in front of mine, which is wrong.
Thanks for your input.
Jim
Jul 10, 2002, 5:46 pm
#33
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One more thing...
To the poster that thinks I must not be a frequent flyer...
Please see my earlier posting of 7/1/01, under the topic "What are the top 10 promotions of all time", go to the second page, about 1/3 down, and you'll see this posting, which I'll paste here for your convenience:
I think the ALL TIME most generous award ever offered was SAS EUROBONUS award of a few years back: fly all 5 Star Alliance segments (at that time, only 5!), within about two months, and get TWO FREE ROUNDTRIP tickets on EACH of the 5 Star Alliance members, anywhere they go. I used the roundtrips for two as follows: United: LAX/BANGKOK/LAX; THAI: LAX/Bali/LAX; Air Canada: LAX/FRANKFURT/LAX; Lufthansa: LAX/Delhi/LAX; SAS: Newark/Milan/Chicago; PLUS, I earned mileage for the 5 segments I had to take, (which I quickly and inexpensively "earned" on a quick trip to Europe); PLUS, United had a SIMULTANIOUS offer for flying SIX Star Alliance carriers, (with the addition of a Varig flight between AMsterdam and Paris), which got me an ADDITIONAL UNITED bonus of 100,000 miles. My total out of pocket expenses to "earn" this award was about $1,000. At the time, I thought SAS Eurobonus was crazy, and they had NOT repeated this offer.
James
So, I trust you believe me that I am a frequent flyer. I trust I've made the point that just because I may often fly in First Class, doesn't mean the preferential treatment is fair to everyone, especially when the airlines don't DISCLOSE in advance openly and fairly for everyone to know, that certain tickets entitle certain people to more rights. It would be nice if the airlines would be up front and DISCLOSE what the law probably requires them to disclose--that is that someone ELSE'S "OK" status may be just a little MORE "OK" than someone elses.
James
To the poster that thinks I must not be a frequent flyer...
Please see my earlier posting of 7/1/01, under the topic "What are the top 10 promotions of all time", go to the second page, about 1/3 down, and you'll see this posting, which I'll paste here for your convenience:
I think the ALL TIME most generous award ever offered was SAS EUROBONUS award of a few years back: fly all 5 Star Alliance segments (at that time, only 5!), within about two months, and get TWO FREE ROUNDTRIP tickets on EACH of the 5 Star Alliance members, anywhere they go. I used the roundtrips for two as follows: United: LAX/BANGKOK/LAX; THAI: LAX/Bali/LAX; Air Canada: LAX/FRANKFURT/LAX; Lufthansa: LAX/Delhi/LAX; SAS: Newark/Milan/Chicago; PLUS, I earned mileage for the 5 segments I had to take, (which I quickly and inexpensively "earned" on a quick trip to Europe); PLUS, United had a SIMULTANIOUS offer for flying SIX Star Alliance carriers, (with the addition of a Varig flight between AMsterdam and Paris), which got me an ADDITIONAL UNITED bonus of 100,000 miles. My total out of pocket expenses to "earn" this award was about $1,000. At the time, I thought SAS Eurobonus was crazy, and they had NOT repeated this offer.
James
So, I trust you believe me that I am a frequent flyer. I trust I've made the point that just because I may often fly in First Class, doesn't mean the preferential treatment is fair to everyone, especially when the airlines don't DISCLOSE in advance openly and fairly for everyone to know, that certain tickets entitle certain people to more rights. It would be nice if the airlines would be up front and DISCLOSE what the law probably requires them to disclose--that is that someone ELSE'S "OK" status may be just a little MORE "OK" than someone elses.
James
Jul 10, 2002, 9:28 pm
#34
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http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif Ok, so you're a very frequent flyer. You still don't have a leg to stand on! YOUR OK FLIGHT WASN'T OK-- IT WAS CANCELLED! Now if you're arguing what BA did or didn't do beyond accomodating you on the very next flight (which was full), I think you will find a more receptive audience. As it stands, you sound like someone crying ME ME ME.
Jul 10, 2002, 9:55 pm
#35
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I'd be seriously peeved at an airline that didn't consider fare paid and status in making decisions in irregular ops. Better treatment is expected by those flying in Club Europe or who have status with BA/Oneworld.
Jul 10, 2002, 10:36 pm
#36
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Flyrights,
From all the posts I've read, no one supports your arguments. You won't accept any of their valid explanations. You continue to say that the airlines should make all these disclosures when purchasing a ticket. Yet you brag about your generous awards, and then say that the only time you've been fairly treated was when you were traveling on Southwest which is one class. Believe me, with your attitude and stubborness you are going to be discriminated again in the future. So I suggest you do all your flying on Southwest. You will be happy, Southwest will be happy, and the agents on the major airlines will be happy that they won't have to contend with you when a flight is canceled. Furthermore, if you feel so strongly about this, why don't you file a lawsuit. It won't be a class action lawsuit because no one their right mind would go along with you.
From all the posts I've read, no one supports your arguments. You won't accept any of their valid explanations. You continue to say that the airlines should make all these disclosures when purchasing a ticket. Yet you brag about your generous awards, and then say that the only time you've been fairly treated was when you were traveling on Southwest which is one class. Believe me, with your attitude and stubborness you are going to be discriminated again in the future. So I suggest you do all your flying on Southwest. You will be happy, Southwest will be happy, and the agents on the major airlines will be happy that they won't have to contend with you when a flight is canceled. Furthermore, if you feel so strongly about this, why don't you file a lawsuit. It won't be a class action lawsuit because no one their right mind would go along with you.
Jul 10, 2002, 10:53 pm
#37
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Thanks for setting me straight, YesHym... Oh!, if only the rest of us could be just like you!
All the awards I've ever "won", and it's a lot, were "won" by my following the disclosed rules. So they weren't really "won", they were PAID FOR, by rules disclosed in advance. So if someone follows the agreed rules, and doesn't receive or expect any so-called "preferential treatment", in your mind, they must be stubborn. Actually, it's not about "me, me, me"... I admit I'm a frequent flyer, yet don't I seem MORE concerned that the NON frequent flyers don't get stepped on? I guess you missed that point, YesHym... At least we agree if someone filed a lawsuit, it wouldn't be a class action lawsuit... the rules are stacked against NON frequent flyers, who pay for most of the seats. Since they don't fly that often, they are less saavy about how to railroad an airline into thinking that the airline can't economically survive unless they have the ability to commit fraud by not disclosing what rights come with different types of tickets.
In "winning" frequent flyer awards, all the rules are known in advance by all parties. With denied boarding situations, NONE of the pecking orders are DISCLOSED in advance... and how awful some people left at the gate might feel if they have to miss, say their mother's funeral, for the benefit of some executive who has to get to a meeting a day early to decide something like what color wallpaper to pick for the office.
Jim
All the awards I've ever "won", and it's a lot, were "won" by my following the disclosed rules. So they weren't really "won", they were PAID FOR, by rules disclosed in advance. So if someone follows the agreed rules, and doesn't receive or expect any so-called "preferential treatment", in your mind, they must be stubborn. Actually, it's not about "me, me, me"... I admit I'm a frequent flyer, yet don't I seem MORE concerned that the NON frequent flyers don't get stepped on? I guess you missed that point, YesHym... At least we agree if someone filed a lawsuit, it wouldn't be a class action lawsuit... the rules are stacked against NON frequent flyers, who pay for most of the seats. Since they don't fly that often, they are less saavy about how to railroad an airline into thinking that the airline can't economically survive unless they have the ability to commit fraud by not disclosing what rights come with different types of tickets.
In "winning" frequent flyer awards, all the rules are known in advance by all parties. With denied boarding situations, NONE of the pecking orders are DISCLOSED in advance... and how awful some people left at the gate might feel if they have to miss, say their mother's funeral, for the benefit of some executive who has to get to a meeting a day early to decide something like what color wallpaper to pick for the office.
Jim
Jul 10, 2002, 11:03 pm
#38
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Or what about an AUCTION, right there at the gate... Airlines do this all the time to get volunteers to give up their seats... why not simply have an aution at the gate... those who bid the most, get to take the first available flight...all the money goes right to the airline. May not be perfect, but at least it's fair... </font>
[This message has been edited by SMessier (edited 07-11-2002).]
Jul 10, 2002, 11:33 pm
#39
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Is everybody READY? The AUCTION will now BEGIN. Do I hear TWO HUNDRED BUCKS for a seat on the NEXT FLIGHT? YES, the MAN IN THE BACK WEARING BLUE. Do I hear THREE HUNDRED BUCKS? The WOMAN NEAR THE WINDOW. Do I hear FOUR HUNDRED BUCKS? Going going...
Jul 10, 2002, 11:54 pm
#40
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Call me crazy, but isn't that auction idea discrimination based on money; and isn't discrimination based on money what flyrights has been against since the first post?
This "disclosure" business is nonsense. It's really no secret in our world that better customers get better treatment.
The same is true of friendships. If two people call and leave messages for me on an urgent matter - one of them is my best friend and another is someone I've never heard of I'm going to call back my best friend first. flyrights - you know you'd do the same.
Better friend, better customer; it doesn't make a difference, the principle is the same.
d
This "disclosure" business is nonsense. It's really no secret in our world that better customers get better treatment.
The same is true of friendships. If two people call and leave messages for me on an urgent matter - one of them is my best friend and another is someone I've never heard of I'm going to call back my best friend first. flyrights - you know you'd do the same.
Better friend, better customer; it doesn't make a difference, the principle is the same.
d
Jul 10, 2002, 11:59 pm
#41
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flyrights:
Or what about an AUCTION, right there at the gate... Airlines do this all the time to get volunteers to give up their seats... why not simply have an aution at the gate... those who bid the most, get to take the first available flight...all the money goes right to the airline. May not be perfect, but at least it's fair... </font>
Or what about an AUCTION, right there at the gate... Airlines do this all the time to get volunteers to give up their seats... why not simply have an aution at the gate... those who bid the most, get to take the first available flight...all the money goes right to the airline. May not be perfect, but at least it's fair... </font>
If you stand by your assertion an auction might be a good way to solve this, can I ask what you would have bid to ensure a seat on this fated flight? Yeah, it's a question for which I really don't expect an answer. In fact, I probably won't revisit this thread, but I thought I'd add my comments in support of the masses who suggest you addle over to the Southwest counter.
Or heck, why not start your own airline? You could call it EarlyBird Air, with a motto of, "The sooner you get here, the sooner we'll get you where you want to go."
Happy flying.
Jul 11, 2002, 9:42 am
#42
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I guess you missed the point... Yes, an auction is based on ability to pay, but AT LEAST IT'S FAIR TO ALL.... everyone has an EQUAL chance to bid on seats. It would be out in the open, and fully disclosed. It's not perfect, but at least it's FAIR to all. The way it is now, you are all parties to LEGALLY discriminating against people. How does that make you feel: you get to step on non-frequent flyers, left out in the dark about their rights, who may be in a rush to get to a funeral, for your benefit, so you can get to your supposedly critical meeting a day early. Until the time airlines openly disclosing their so-called "PECKING ORDER" before tickets are sold, they are all guilty of admittedly LEGAL discrimination. I don't know how you people were raised, but even if discrimination is LEGAL, I still think it's wrong, and won't be a part of it. I guess the rest of you don't have a problem with that... And wouldn't it be interesting to know how many of you actually pay for your OWN tickets, rather than have your employer pay for the tickets, which are tax right-offs, which means, again, as usual, the LITTLE people are paying for your tickets, who you knowingly step on for your own personal selfish benefit. Shame on you.
Jul 11, 2002, 11:14 am
#43
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http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
Someone (a) named flyrights and (b) who is crying for disclosure really ought to read the Contract of Carriage. Also, have you written British Airways with your concerns?
Someone (a) named flyrights and (b) who is crying for disclosure really ought to read the Contract of Carriage. Also, have you written British Airways with your concerns?
Jul 11, 2002, 1:10 pm
#44
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The following came from AA's Conditions of Carriage
https://www.aa.com/content/customerS...Carriage.jhtml
This means that if an ATC strike were to cancel a flight, you are not entitled to anything except a refund.
You've been warned.
This means that your ability to re-route is based stricly on availability. Availability is based on fare class.
You've now been fully warned that if your flight is canceled for any reason, your ability to be rerouted will be limited if you are on a discount economy ticket [or the award travel equivalent].
If your future travels put you on AA flights, flyrights, consider yourself forewarned and full disclosure given.
https://www.aa.com/content/customerS...Carriage.jhtml
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">FORCE MAJEURE EVENTS
AA may, in the event of a force majeure event, without notice, cancel, terminate, divert, postpone or delay any flight or the right of carriage or reservation of traffic accommodations without liability except to issue an involuntary refund. The involuntary refund will be made in the original form of payment in accordance with involuntary refund rules for any unused portion of the ticket. AA will also reserve the right to determine if any departure or landing should be made without any liability except the afore mentioned involuntary refund.
Force Majeure Event Means
Any condition beyond AA's control including, but without limitation, meteorological conditions, acts of God, riots, civil commotion, embargoes, wars, hostilities, disturbances or unsettled international conditions - actual threatened or reported. Also, because of any delay, demand, circumstances or requirement due, directly or indirectly to such conditions
Any strike, work stoppage, slowdown, lockout or any other labor related dispute involving or affecting AA's service
Any government regulation, demand or requirement
Any shortage of labor, fuel or facilities of AA or others
Any fact not reasonably foreseen, anticipated or predicted by AA. </font>
AA may, in the event of a force majeure event, without notice, cancel, terminate, divert, postpone or delay any flight or the right of carriage or reservation of traffic accommodations without liability except to issue an involuntary refund. The involuntary refund will be made in the original form of payment in accordance with involuntary refund rules for any unused portion of the ticket. AA will also reserve the right to determine if any departure or landing should be made without any liability except the afore mentioned involuntary refund.
Force Majeure Event Means
Any condition beyond AA's control including, but without limitation, meteorological conditions, acts of God, riots, civil commotion, embargoes, wars, hostilities, disturbances or unsettled international conditions - actual threatened or reported. Also, because of any delay, demand, circumstances or requirement due, directly or indirectly to such conditions
Any strike, work stoppage, slowdown, lockout or any other labor related dispute involving or affecting AA's service
Any government regulation, demand or requirement
Any shortage of labor, fuel or facilities of AA or others
Any fact not reasonably foreseen, anticipated or predicted by AA. </font>
You've been warned.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">When cancellations and major delays are experienced, you will be rerouted on our next flight with available seats. </font>
You've now been fully warned that if your flight is canceled for any reason, your ability to be rerouted will be limited if you are on a discount economy ticket [or the award travel equivalent].
If your future travels put you on AA flights, flyrights, consider yourself forewarned and full disclosure given.
Jul 11, 2002, 1:16 pm
#45
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by flyrights:
I don't know how you people were raised, but even if discrimination is LEGAL, I still think it's wrong, and won't be a part of it</font>
I don't know how you people were raised, but even if discrimination is LEGAL, I still think it's wrong, and won't be a part of it</font>
It doesn't matter what system the airline uses to determin who will be reaccomodated first. If the system is applied uniformly to everyone then it is fair.
Have you called your airline(s) and asked how they handle such a situation? I think you'll find that most, if not all, go by ticket price paid.