One more old Washington "saw"
Mar 13, 2002, 5:26 pm
#31
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Geez, LL, I was expecting a number with lots of Zeros...not just one...
Are you sure you're an attorney?
Are you sure you're an attorney?
Mar 13, 2002, 6:20 pm
#32
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kokonutz, you would get a number with lots of zeros after the "1" but it's likely to be the bill from your attorney, not the verdict from the jury. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
------------------
"Yes, but at least mine will be found in a first class seat." -- Peattie and Taylor
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"Yes, but at least mine will be found in a first class seat." -- Peattie and Taylor
Mar 13, 2002, 8:15 pm
#33
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squeakr, No moderator has been chosen or not chosen for that matter. Since Kokonutz chose to
1) post a private stolen thread
2) and post it out of context
I will answer your questions. No other person was discussed in any personal way. The PROOF of this... IF they had been you can bet Kokonutz would have posted those pieces of the thread too. More ways to try and hang me. Go ahead... ASK KOKONUTZ if anything negative is said about anyone else. You will find, I made one ill concieved post, that's it. No star chamber, nothing exciting. Just "here's a list"... *yawn* okay with us kinda thing. I hope that answers your question.
[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 03-13-2002).]
[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 03-13-2002).]
1) post a private stolen thread
2) and post it out of context
I will answer your questions. No other person was discussed in any personal way. The PROOF of this... IF they had been you can bet Kokonutz would have posted those pieces of the thread too. More ways to try and hang me. Go ahead... ASK KOKONUTZ if anything negative is said about anyone else. You will find, I made one ill concieved post, that's it. No star chamber, nothing exciting. Just "here's a list"... *yawn* okay with us kinda thing. I hope that answers your question.
[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 03-13-2002).]
[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 03-13-2002).]
Mar 13, 2002, 9:11 pm
#34
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Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 19,523
FlyerTalk is a realm of the written word.
I don't think anyone's actions outside this bulletin board should have any bearing on any official considerations.
I don't care if someone is a Saint in person.
I don't care if someone is a total demon in person.
For the purposes of evaluating in regards to FlyerTalk, it is ones action here on this bulletin board that should be the only consideration. IMHO.
BTW, I've never yet seen any "official" FlyerTalk event. Never.
I've seen Freddie Award Ceremonies.
I've seen dinners and meetings with individuals that happened to come together through FlyerTalk.
But I've never seen or heard of any "official" FlyerTalk event where one was held to the responsiblity to represent FlyerTalk.
You all know what a bad idea I think TalkBoard is. No matter who's in there. This is just further proof, IMHO.
Randy, please shut it down now. Before it's very existance does more harm than good by one hundred fold.
As I think we've already witnessed. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
I don't think anyone's actions outside this bulletin board should have any bearing on any official considerations.
I don't care if someone is a Saint in person.
I don't care if someone is a total demon in person.
For the purposes of evaluating in regards to FlyerTalk, it is ones action here on this bulletin board that should be the only consideration. IMHO.
BTW, I've never yet seen any "official" FlyerTalk event. Never.
I've seen Freddie Award Ceremonies.
I've seen dinners and meetings with individuals that happened to come together through FlyerTalk.
But I've never seen or heard of any "official" FlyerTalk event where one was held to the responsiblity to represent FlyerTalk.
You all know what a bad idea I think TalkBoard is. No matter who's in there. This is just further proof, IMHO.
Randy, please shut it down now. Before it's very existance does more harm than good by one hundred fold.
As I think we've already witnessed. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
Mar 13, 2002, 10:15 pm
#35
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Cigarman wrote, then later edited:
Aw, geez. Just when this thread was going in a nice, goofy direction.
Oh, well, here goes:
Cman: The "President" of an advisory board of a "club" to which I belong calls me an alcoholic and a person of "severly bad judgment" to that board.
How in the world do you expect:
1) That your disparagement would NOT get back to me and,
2) Any one to have any further faith in the ‘secret’ proceedings
You feel that you are in a position to judge me and you find me lacking. Trust me, you’re not the first.
But I never asked to be judged by you or your star chamber. I am nothing more then a humble poster here and never have asked to or wanted to be anything more.
You, sir, are the one in a position of ‘responsibility,’ a position you have voraciously coveted and eventually fallen into. You are the one who ought to be called to a higher standard. You are Randy’s hand-picked representative of this community. Don’t you feel the least compulsion to act in a professional manner, whether you believe you are conducting official business in secret or not?
Rather then paraphrasing myself, I’ll just quote liberally and out of context here my ‘private’ comments to Randy on the subject of this thread:
Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll take your advice and go grow up now.
Oh, wait, IJAFIBB...
[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 03-13-2002).]
[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 03-14-2002).]
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">cigarman
Posts: 1958
From: Smoke filled room, CLT, LAX :CO PLAT,DL rookie (comp status),starwd PLAT,hilton diamond,hyatt diamond
Registered: May 2000
posted 03-13-2002 08:15 PM
Kokonutz, You are offended and that I understand. But, that does not excuse posting information you should not have access to. Why should you expect me to "say something to your face". We were discussing who was a good choice for moderators. Clearly a moderator should behave in a manner above the norm. I am not sutable, thanks to a couple of flame wars I had with Ozstamps and Doc. I accept that, and freely admit that. I would not be offended if that is pointed out. Another poster asked about private lives. Well let me delicate and say, I based my orignal post on FT events. PUBLIC FT events. How we behave at publically FT events, surely has some bearing as to our temperment and ability to moderate. I would think the very posting of this thread makes my point, that I personally think you would make a bad moderator. In addition, I would point out you also started the thread on timeouts. This again, was inside information. Should every discussion of any board be public? We voted no... I happened to have voted YES. Since I believed the convesation was private, I do not see the need to apologize. If someone broke in house and heard you say something, should you apologize? If you want to call me a jacka** to your friends privatly... feel free. But libelous... grow up. </font>
Posts: 1958
From: Smoke filled room, CLT, LAX :CO PLAT,DL rookie (comp status),starwd PLAT,hilton diamond,hyatt diamond
Registered: May 2000
posted 03-13-2002 08:15 PM
Kokonutz, You are offended and that I understand. But, that does not excuse posting information you should not have access to. Why should you expect me to "say something to your face". We were discussing who was a good choice for moderators. Clearly a moderator should behave in a manner above the norm. I am not sutable, thanks to a couple of flame wars I had with Ozstamps and Doc. I accept that, and freely admit that. I would not be offended if that is pointed out. Another poster asked about private lives. Well let me delicate and say, I based my orignal post on FT events. PUBLIC FT events. How we behave at publically FT events, surely has some bearing as to our temperment and ability to moderate. I would think the very posting of this thread makes my point, that I personally think you would make a bad moderator. In addition, I would point out you also started the thread on timeouts. This again, was inside information. Should every discussion of any board be public? We voted no... I happened to have voted YES. Since I believed the convesation was private, I do not see the need to apologize. If someone broke in house and heard you say something, should you apologize? If you want to call me a jacka** to your friends privatly... feel free. But libelous... grow up. </font>
Aw, geez. Just when this thread was going in a nice, goofy direction.
Oh, well, here goes:
Cman: The "President" of an advisory board of a "club" to which I belong calls me an alcoholic and a person of "severly bad judgment" to that board.
How in the world do you expect:
1) That your disparagement would NOT get back to me and,
2) Any one to have any further faith in the ‘secret’ proceedings
You feel that you are in a position to judge me and you find me lacking. Trust me, you’re not the first.
But I never asked to be judged by you or your star chamber. I am nothing more then a humble poster here and never have asked to or wanted to be anything more.
You, sir, are the one in a position of ‘responsibility,’ a position you have voraciously coveted and eventually fallen into. You are the one who ought to be called to a higher standard. You are Randy’s hand-picked representative of this community. Don’t you feel the least compulsion to act in a professional manner, whether you believe you are conducting official business in secret or not?
Rather then paraphrasing myself, I’ll just quote liberally and out of context here my ‘private’ comments to Randy on the subject of this thread:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
My intention today was to point out in a crystal clear (and eventually humorous) way the downside of how the TB is conducting business. And to register my displeasure at having been disparaged during the conduct of official business of same. Cigarman has made similar comments about me to Flyertalkers in social situations, and frankly it doesn't bother me since I could really care less about [his] opinion… Water off a duck, so to speak.
A friendly piece of advice: the TalkBoard is not highly valued by any Flyertalker I have ever spoken to about it. In fact, IMHO, it is more of a liability to Flyertalk and to you personally then an asset. Most folks just think it’s a joke. If I were you, I'd disband it and simply implement the things that have been generally agreed upon by the community. You know your market. Just deliver product! But, as ever, it is your company, your Board and your call. You're the guru, I'm just a VFF :-D.
Out of respect, I will tell you that the quotes I posted came to me NOT from current OR former members of the TB. What my sourceS’ (plural: like a good reporter I did use the two-source rule) sources were is a mystery to me, and I didnt ask.... I enjoyed being able to make my point in a demonstrative way. If the result is more professional, more open conduct of TB business then I think the effort will have been successful http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif. If not, well at least I can be satisfied with the knowledge that I made my point.
</font>
My intention today was to point out in a crystal clear (and eventually humorous) way the downside of how the TB is conducting business. And to register my displeasure at having been disparaged during the conduct of official business of same. Cigarman has made similar comments about me to Flyertalkers in social situations, and frankly it doesn't bother me since I could really care less about [his] opinion… Water off a duck, so to speak.
A friendly piece of advice: the TalkBoard is not highly valued by any Flyertalker I have ever spoken to about it. In fact, IMHO, it is more of a liability to Flyertalk and to you personally then an asset. Most folks just think it’s a joke. If I were you, I'd disband it and simply implement the things that have been generally agreed upon by the community. You know your market. Just deliver product! But, as ever, it is your company, your Board and your call. You're the guru, I'm just a VFF :-D.
Out of respect, I will tell you that the quotes I posted came to me NOT from current OR former members of the TB. What my sourceS’ (plural: like a good reporter I did use the two-source rule) sources were is a mystery to me, and I didnt ask.... I enjoyed being able to make my point in a demonstrative way. If the result is more professional, more open conduct of TB business then I think the effort will have been successful http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif. If not, well at least I can be satisfied with the knowledge that I made my point.
</font>
Oh, wait, IJAFIBB...
[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 03-13-2002).]
[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 03-14-2002).]
Mar 14, 2002, 2:02 am
#36
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Ok, I'll take someone's advise and lighten up a bit and have edited my post. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
(Now, in the next post below, I make ElmhurstNick look like the old geezer who's wandering off on some unrelated conversation.) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 03-14-2002).]
(Now, in the next post below, I make ElmhurstNick look like the old geezer who's wandering off on some unrelated conversation.) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 03-14-2002).]
Mar 14, 2002, 6:24 am
#37
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PremEx:
...Makes me look like some old geezer that's wandering off on some unrelated conversation.</font>
...Makes me look like some old geezer that's wandering off on some unrelated conversation.</font>
Mar 14, 2002, 7:39 am
#38
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cigarman: No other person was discussed in any personal way
Actually this seems not to be the case. I too was the recipient of anonymous e-mails yesterday containing several derogatory and/or false comments recently made on TalkBoard about Punki (and others).
Actually this seems not to be the case. I too was the recipient of anonymous e-mails yesterday containing several derogatory and/or false comments recently made on TalkBoard about Punki (and others).
Mar 14, 2002, 7:52 am
#39
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Cigarman claims in his edited post:
Do you really hunger for this to continue? Do you REALLY want me to post all the negative things you said about other Flyertalkers, especially the one who "chaps your butt" and that other TB members asked you to tone down about?
FWIW: Lesson #1 of being caught in a cover-up: fully disclose, apologize, and try to move forward.
Perhaps you want to hit that 'edit' icon one more time?
OBTW: I challenge you to name a single event we attended together where I was so drunk I couldn't even walk and made a complete ... of myself...I only ever recall seeing you at two events, DUS and LA. Is it one of those you are talking about?
Ooops, how'd I know you posted that slander against me again yesterday at 7:57pm Flyertalk time when you were advocating that I recieve a timeout from Randy for starting this thread????
[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 03-14-2002).]
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">squeakr, No moderator has been chosen or not chosen for that matter. Since Kokonutz chose to
1) post a private stolen thread
2) and post it out of context
I will answer your questions. No other person was discussed in any personal way. The PROOF of this... IF they had been you can bet Kokonutz would have posted those pieces of the thread too. More ways to try and hang me. Go ahead... ASK KOKONUTZ if anything negative is said about anyone else. You will find, I made one ill concieved post, that's it. No star chamber, nothing exciting. Just "here's a list"... *yawn* okay with us kinda thing. I hope that answers your question.</font>
1) post a private stolen thread
2) and post it out of context
I will answer your questions. No other person was discussed in any personal way. The PROOF of this... IF they had been you can bet Kokonutz would have posted those pieces of the thread too. More ways to try and hang me. Go ahead... ASK KOKONUTZ if anything negative is said about anyone else. You will find, I made one ill concieved post, that's it. No star chamber, nothing exciting. Just "here's a list"... *yawn* okay with us kinda thing. I hope that answers your question.</font>
FWIW: Lesson #1 of being caught in a cover-up: fully disclose, apologize, and try to move forward.
Perhaps you want to hit that 'edit' icon one more time?
OBTW: I challenge you to name a single event we attended together where I was so drunk I couldn't even walk and made a complete ... of myself...I only ever recall seeing you at two events, DUS and LA. Is it one of those you are talking about?
Ooops, how'd I know you posted that slander against me again yesterday at 7:57pm Flyertalk time when you were advocating that I recieve a timeout from Randy for starting this thread????
[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 03-14-2002).]
Mar 14, 2002, 8:10 am
#40
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cigarman:
Since Kokonutz chose to
1) post a private stolen thread</font>
Since Kokonutz chose to
1) post a private stolen thread</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> 2) and post it out of context
I will answer your questions. No other person was discussed in any personal way.
The PROOF of this... IF they had been you can bet Kokonutz would have posted those pieces of the thread too.</font>
I will answer your questions. No other person was discussed in any personal way.
The PROOF of this... IF they had been you can bet Kokonutz would have posted those pieces of the thread too.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">More ways to try and hang me. Go ahead... ASK KOKONUTZ if anything negative is said about anyone else. You will find, I made one ill concieved post, that's it. No star chamber, nothing exciting. Just "here's a list"... *yawn* okay with us kinda thing. I hope that answers your question.</font>
So that makes at least two inaccurate statements you've made: that nobody else was mentioned, and that there was just the one post. My questions were certainly answered. What I wanted, besides an explanation (should I have requested one based on facts??) and the the informing of parties who were discussed (and since you're denying that anybody else was discussed despite evidence to the contrary, I don't think you're going to make this happen) were the appropriate apologies. Given your response, I have no confidence that any will be forthcoming from you.
Oh, I asked that the posts here be edited to delete third parties' names, which was done by kokonutz. Since he has chosen not to edit his own name out of the quotes, I think we can all take it as consent for others not to protect his privacy in this thread. I had also asked that the TalkBoard thread be edited after affected parties had been informed, but given your ham-handedness in editing your own posts here after they've been rebutted, without acknowledging that you were doing so, my $0.02 says you're already deleting evidence in the TalkBoard thread.
You have left me with no choice in this matter. I request that you resign from the TalkBoard, and should you not do so, I request that the rest of the TalkBoard remove you.
islandcub
P.S. I just reviewed the posts to the thread that came in after I started writing this. I have the utmost respect for Rudi, and I believe him. I note that kokonutz has apparently received a more complete TalkBoard thread than he posted. And I note that according to him, the other members of the TalkBoard tried to get you to tone it down, which explains why there was some discussion. None of this mitigates what you have done, and some of it makes it clear that you've done more than the minimum we could assume yesterday. It's time to do the honourable thing: tell us the truth, apologize, and resign.
islandcub
Mar 14, 2002, 10:00 am
#41
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islandclub states:
Whether I agree with your request or not in this particular case, to beat a dead horse...I think the faux/semi-democratic TalkBoard as it currently exists on this bulletin board, is the root problem, and these same types of problems/clashes/conflits will always be popping up no matter who's "in charge."
Politics on FlyerTalk = BAD!
IMHO.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">You have left me with no choice in this matter. I request that you resign from the TalkBoard, and should you not do so, I request that the rest of the TalkBoard remove you.</font>
Politics on FlyerTalk = BAD!
IMHO.
Mar 14, 2002, 10:22 am
#42
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FWIW, I had posted a while ago that the TalkBoard should be readable by all:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000017.html
Upon re-read of that thread, I find in there the comments of the then TB members to be interesting.
[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-14-2002).]
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000017.html
Upon re-read of that thread, I find in there the comments of the then TB members to be interesting.
[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-14-2002).]
Mar 14, 2002, 11:01 am
#43
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Like Pam (svpii) I too suggested long ago the addition of an advisory board to Randy in private email.
I am very much for the concept if implemented correctly (partially explaining my departure from TalkBoard).
No doubt Cigarman was also factored into my decision to leave TalkBoard.
As I stated in email to an FT member I respect greatly...for me the happenings that initiated this thread are merely the cherry on top.
Dorian
I am very much for the concept if implemented correctly (partially explaining my departure from TalkBoard).
No doubt Cigarman was also factored into my decision to leave TalkBoard.
As I stated in email to an FT member I respect greatly...for me the happenings that initiated this thread are merely the cherry on top.
Dorian
Mar 15, 2002, 8:10 am
#44
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Location: In protest of Flyertalk's uncalledfor censoring of my point of view, I cancelled my InsideFlyer subscription. So long, and thanks for everything.
Posts: 3,325
No other comments on this thread?
Is the whole Talk Board on Time Out? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Is the whole Talk Board on Time Out? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Mar 15, 2002, 9:21 am
#45
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No, they are under a self-imposed gag order not to talk openly about the TB or the issues they discuss in order to maintain 'secrecy' of deliberations.
Of course, the ill-conceivedness of said secrecy was my major motivation in starting this thread in the first place...
Of course, I am under no such obligation, so let me say that the TB has decided to redouble their focus on the issues at hand, such as opening the GLBT Forum:
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/000001.html
and getting moderation up and running.
And I am happy to report that the moderation threads where flyertalkers were judged as to whether they are worthy of moderator responsibilities has been cleaned up considerably. The edit icon in that forum must be sore from over use http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif.
All in all, I would say that since being exposed to some sunshine the TB is moving forward more responsibly and swiftly, if not more openly...
I think we might anticipate some official announcement in this vein soon enough....
Of course, the ill-conceivedness of said secrecy was my major motivation in starting this thread in the first place...
Of course, I am under no such obligation, so let me say that the TB has decided to redouble their focus on the issues at hand, such as opening the GLBT Forum:
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/000001.html
and getting moderation up and running.
And I am happy to report that the moderation threads where flyertalkers were judged as to whether they are worthy of moderator responsibilities has been cleaned up considerably. The edit icon in that forum must be sore from over use http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif.
All in all, I would say that since being exposed to some sunshine the TB is moving forward more responsibly and swiftly, if not more openly...
I think we might anticipate some official announcement in this vein soon enough....