How is this not fraud?
 

I'm going to use Delta as an example of this, but I've seen an offer like this offered by many carriers:

"Fly at least two non-stop or connecting round trips in any paid fare class excluding T, in one or both promotions before April 15, 2004 to earn a free* Award Ticket"

I just went to the Delta website and looked for a r/t flight from JFK-LAX (3/3-3/10). The cheapest fare--of course in T class--is $216. The cheapest flight that would qualify for the above offer is $430. So purchasing two qualifying fares would cost you $860, while I could buy three r/t tickets for $650.

Is it just me, or am I crazy in thinking that in any other industry this would reek of fraud? Why are airlines allowed to play these kinds of games, and how is that this sort of practice is ethically or legally sound? I know nothing about law so any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

I think using the word "fraud" is a bit to much here. Though I understand your where you're coming from. But as long as they have stated all of the rules upfront, I don't see where it can be called fraud.

I also happen to think it's smart business on the part of the airlines. Why "give away the house" to the person paying $216 a ticket when you don't have to.

Almost 20 years ago American Airlines offered a promotion called the "Ultimate Special". And all you had to do was fly (8) segments anywhere, and you earned a free First Class ticket to Hawaii. And while I loved it because we got to go to Hawaii more than once in First Class. It may not have been very profitable for American, as we were able to get our (8) segments for less than $200 without any problem.

I will agree with you though that the airlines to get to do a number of things that seem a little shady when it comes to pricing. Like advertising a fare of $99, and then if you read in the fine print it states that you must buy a roundtrip, plus pay a number of other fees.

So no "fraud" here IMHO.


[This message has been edited by 1123581321 (edited Jan 14, 2004).]

i don't think its fraud when the terms and conditions are clear, which they seem to be on dl.

Those fares are regularly sold for whatever reason. If you need to buy them, and you get two, then you will be "rewarded" with a free ticket. That is not fraud.

Last year some promotions involved flying a number of times in FC/BC to Europe (forgot the airline) and you would receive a free ticket for US travel. Same thing.

BTW, the reward for doing something does not have to be more than the cost of doing it.

This is why I was asking for redeption strategies that people are using to get the best bang for the buck. I'm having trouble getting qualifying flights and finding a good redeption route that would make this into a "hot deal".

That said, a lot of people on this board fly for status and miles, not so much to save money.


------------------
www.witold.org

fair enough, "fraud" is a bit extreme. the underlying principle, however, is what bothers me so much. it's like when cruises used to advertise their prices without including the port fees (which were always >$100).

i just try to look at it from the average consumer--it's one thing if you're using a grocery store coupon and you have to buy a certain size/#ounces to qualify for the coupon.....but how many members of the general public know what "T class" is and know how to manuever the flight engine to display any fare _other_ than T class? if it weren't for my perusing these boards, i certainly wouldn't know.... but that's just how i perceive it.

First - not all airlines are created equally. American started this promo and they allow you to fly any fare to earn the free ticket.

Second - I don't know the details of the Delta promo, but if the rest of the Terms&Conds are anything like AAs then your example is not correct. You picked one route and according to your theory the free ticket will be used on the same route. AA promo will give you a free ticket to anywhere AA flies. So I could fly 2 trips between TPA-LGA which I could get as low as $156 R/T, so after spending $312 total, I will get a free ticket that will get me to Tokyo, Buenos Aires, Rio, London, Paris or wherever I choose.

Third - I agree with some others here. Even looking at Delta's exemption of the lowest fare, you're assuming that everybody flies on lowest fares. They don't. Just because a promo may not work for you, it does work for many others. I'm mostly leisure flyer so I have to watch the fares. But many people do fly on higher fares because they need flexibility, refundability, etc.. AA has another promo that if you fly 10K miles in Jan. any miles above that will be triple miles, BUT the miles after the 10K can't be on the 2 lowest fares. The promo is great, but for me personally it won't work, yet I don't see it as a fraud. The airlines are choosing to reward the higher spending pax, and I can't blame them.

While you can pay $650 for three tickets from JFK to LAX, you can use your free award ticket anyplace in the world Delta flies.

So your $860 in tickets gets you a ticket anywhere on the planet Delta Flies. If that ticket costs more then $328 (860 minus 532, then it's a good deal. If that ticket costs less then $328, then you would have been better off not taking this deal.

It's not fraud, the terms are clearly laid out.

I'm as frustrated as everyone else about dirty/deceptive advertising used by airlines, hotels, and car rental companies, but this particular promotion seems straightforward to me. A lot of frequent-flyer promotions have restrictions, but as long as they are spelled out completely and in a straight-forward manner, I don't have a problem with it.

The worst abuses, IMHO, are the bogus fees that companies attach to their advertised fares. I don't have a problem with the government taxes being separate, but too often the companies add their own fees in a deceptive way in order to be able to advertise something else altogether. (Examples: fuel surcharges, concession recovery charges, resort fees, etc.)

sometimes I highlight a surpressed opinion I hold that 99% of all business (airlines specially) are sheer fraud by nature! (in the way you describe in this post). A sucker is born every minute and THEY BANK ON IT!

Also, that which is considered legal or "clearly stated" is not always right. In fact, its all too often simply about power and money. That seems a bit juvenile and yet, we've all been on both sides of this at some degree or another. Good, fine, but dont tread on me! AND, when there is someone who figures out the catch, they (the businesses trying to dupe US) should honor the rules set forth. They do not. They just get changed to be even harder to crack.

Avoid schemes like this. Maybe it IS ok to fight fire with fire if you really feel you are getting screwed. I should hope not, but it sure seems to be the only way with airlines. hence, the people who sell mile awards on ebay are often my heros.

You know, there are rules on this - at least DOT rules above and beyond any normal fraud/deceptive marketing laws. See, for example, this recent letter of guidance: http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/20030904.doc

I'm not too familiar with the actual rules (there's a citation in the above link), but my impression is that they (1) have prevented some of the most outrageous fraud, such as making the airline denote that the fares are one way based on round trip; and (2) are the reason why we see some goofy stuff, like that odd breakdown of fares, taxes and fees ('air fare=$133.86, us tax=$12.14, fees=$12') when you get to the purchase screen; but (3) haven't really stopped the stuff that drives most of us nuts.

I agree that it's probably not fraud in this case - but if you think so, you should see if you can get the DOT's Aviation Consumer Protection Division to take it up.

Airlines frequently charges $200.00 for one person and $2,000 for the person who sits next to it. Is it fraud by your definition?

The airlines is selling not just the seat. Delta's higher fare will earn you more EQM and better chance to get upgrade.

The product on the T class is not the same product on K class. Delta is just trying to promote their higher price products.

Its not fraud because technically there is no mis-statement. Its a deceptive trade practice because they have not disclosed that the availability of low-priced fares is limited or non-existant. In addition to the DOT, I believe the FTC has rules about deceptive trade practices.

I would not say that this part (the fare classes) is fraud - if the rules are stated beforehand and are clear, then it is not fraud. Actually this could turn out to be a pretty good deal.

Not to say that they are not overly-complicating things intentionally to make it more difficult to understand than it seems.

Here is the part that I think may be considered, in a way, fradulent: when you go to use the award ticket, is it subject to the same ridiculous, hidden capacity controls that the mileage standard level awards are subject to? If it is, then it is, to me, fradulent. If they say that you are getting a free flight, then they should give you one if the flight is the seat is EMPTY, not if one is available per their undisclosed capacity controls. The reason is that they are the only ones that can determine if you can have a seat and it is a completely closed system. The whole plane could be empty and they might say that you cannot have a seat because they did not allocate any seats on that flight. Your award could expire because you could not use it because everytime you tried to use it they said that there are no seats available. I have not confirmed that this is how it works, but is says in small print: "All Delta SkyMiles program rules and conditions apply." I would call them and hash out all details before using the program.

Nonetheless, provided the award is reasonably usable and you can go anywhere, this can be a pretty lucrative offer.

These deals often appeal to business travelers. Their company pays for the two tickets, and they get the third trip for themselves. The airlines know this.

It can also be noted that T fares are not available on every route, even if they are, they are not necessarily available, and furthermore that pretty much anyone who needs to fly within a 21 day window couldn't generally buy them anyway.

i didn't even realize that it was an offer for a free ticket to *anywhere* delta flies...that does indeed have the potential of being very valuable.

HOWEVER, the fine print underscores the "potential" nature of the offer:

"Award travel may only be booked in E class. E class inventory is limited and seats may not be available on all flights or in all markets."

I'm not a Delta flyer (I've been a CO elite member for several years), but if redeeming any award in a certain class (likely the "standard" reward and not the "easypass" ones) is anything like continental, then that free ticket is about as valuable as monopoly money, especially since the fine print also mentions:

"Award tickets must be issued 24 hours after the reservation is made and at least 14 days prior to departure."

i know that continental, for instance, doesn't start releasing it's "standard" reward inventory UNTIL 14 days before departure (so they can nab you with a $35-50 fee for booking the reservation so close to the travel date)...and if delta is any way like CO in this regard, then you might as well use the free ticket voucher as toilet paper.

Fraud - No
Unethical - No
Illegal - No

They make you an offer, clearly stating the T&C's and you can choose to accept it.

If you know you need 3 tix and the price is less than the 2 in a higher fare class, go ahead an pass on their offer

If your 3rd ticket is to a very expensive destination, or you don't know your schedule but think it is worth the extra $$ to have the option of a free ticket anywhere, take the offer.

I have no problems at all. Of course, I also expect people to be smart enough to read, consider the options, and make a smart decision. I have no sympathy for the 'victim syndrome' - it's all your fault because I couldn't bother to think.

Very well said, CPRich. It's hard to swallow that the thread starter finds cruise line advertising 'deceptive' because they do not include the port tax. Newsflash--most business, including airlines, advertise the cost without the tax. Do you think Macy's includes a NY state sales tax in every item it advertises? When I book a room at Luxor in LAS, they quote me the rate without tax.

Sorry, but you are way, way off base.

It's actually illegal in some states, Connecticut for example, for a store to price an item with tax included in the sticker price.

For travel related prices, I don't care if the cruise is a $1.00 fare with $999 in port charges and taxes, or a $999 fare with $1 in taxes. It's the total cost that matters, not what makes it up.

So how about the airlines advertising airfares based on one way when a round-trip is required. How would you feel if Mcdonalds advertised an extra value meal at 99cents but at the check out said the 99 cents was only for the hamburger and you also needed to pay $3 for the drink and fires?

How about a Ford advertisment for an Excursion for $4000*?
*price is per person based upon a seating capcitiy of 8.

cruises and packaged travel is full of deceptive advertising. things like "free air" & free pre cruise hotel etc" are frequently touted. on some, i have had the price reduced when i declined the air etc. on others, there was no reduction for declining the air, tho i'm sure it was a part of their cost. others have put me on the a/l i wanted, but w/additional cost. port charges & tips sometimes are mentioned in the ad fine print. i take what the defense will give me.

it's tough in the field!

Sold !!!! I will take as many Excursions as you can get for 32k a piece.

"How is this not fraud?" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

I don't know much about cruises, but to me port charges and tax are very different things. (Is a port charge kind of like the fee that an airline pays to have gates at an airport?)

My problem is when an airline advertises a $79 fare, and then you go to book it and it's three components: (a) base fare, (b) taxes paid to directly to the government, (c) garbage fees that go to the airline. IMHO, airline advertisements should include (a) and (c). Government taxes listed separately is normal and to be expected. (And I'm even fine with the R/T required - that is also normal and to be expected with cheap fares.)

For example, a "fuel surcharge" is unethical. When a customer buys a seat on an airplane, it is reasonable to assume that the airplane will not sit stationary, and will therefore need fuel to get to its destination. If a fuel surcharge is OK, why not have a wing surcharge, a fuselage surcharge, a cockpit surcharge, a seat surcharge, etc. etc. etc. (I don't have a problem with airfares changing as a result of the fact that fuel is a fluctuating cost. I have a problem with deceptive advertising.)

it doesn't matter....i brought it up just as an example of a very pervasive and annoying travel industry practice...as the examples in the posts above astutely demonstrate, it's absolutely ridiculous to advertise a fare with the small print saying "ONE WAY, BASED ON ROUND-TRIP PURCHASE". and all the taxes are a different issue---all i know is that with any other purchase, i know what taxes i'm paying....but when i have to pay in excess of $10 for "fuel surcharges", or as i've found in many hotels the "resort fee"... all it does is make me feel like a sucker who is being duped.

pretty much all airlines charge the same taxes and fees, so it's not like i would give one carrier my business over another if they all had to advertise their prices that included the taxes and fees...but as long as airlines will advertise "go to london for $79!*" for example (*79 one-way based on round-trip purchase, not including taxes and fees, etc.) i will continue to feel like they're taking advantage of me.

again, i'm sorry i used the word "fraud"... i'm just frustrated at how deceptive the marketing can be and i don't like when businesses play games like this with their customers. i think in certain cases it's unethical and at other times just unfair.

To those who have a problem with DL's practice here, I ask: would you prefer the alternative?

The alternative would surely be that DL did not offer this promotion, as it's highly unlikely that they'll offer an award ticket anywhere in the world for two or three discount domestic fares, right?

In this case, the airline made an offer, you're free to accept it or not. There's no deception, no fraud, and not even a hint of an ethical lapse.

I've seen posts here and on other FF forums that seem to think that the customer actually IS always right, even when they're not. I don't subscribe to that. When the terms and conditions of business are available in writing, you can hardly call it deceptive or fraud, and in my experience, it is usually people who are lazy or stupid, or have this sense of entitlement who have a problem with it.

So to those who disagree, I'd ask what kind of system they'd prefer.

I just called AA last night to inquire about their similar promotion, buy 2 tix nonstop from NY airport to FL or CA, get a ticket to anywhere that you can use by 4/15/2005. it is promotion AANYC.

My findings are that the free award is coming from the same bucket as the standard award tickets, which as you know are completely under the control of the airlines and completely undisclosed to the public. If I were to take advantage of this offer, I would want to use it next year and I only have a 3.5 month window to get a ticket to the place that I want from that award bucket. At least with miles I do not lose them in 1 year, basically if you are stranded with the ticket voucher, you are out of luck. Not that the airline would do it, but they *could* (by their T&C) simply tell you that every flight you request is not available with that voucher - and that may be the case of a lot of people take advantage of this promotion. There may be a lot of people who either get stranded with the voucher or are forced to use it for something that makes it not worth it.

The deal could be lucrative, but anyone participating is completely unprotected from the airlines' completely undisclosed policies, so the airline, in the T&C, essentially reserved the right to make the voucher worthless if they so desire. I was considering booking a couple of weekend trips to Florida, but now I am reconsidering.

Dont forget the extra fee's:

Fuel surchage of $500 per passenger.
Extra baggage fee if anybody who rides in the car will weigh more than 50 pounds.
Elecronic key fee if you want a metal key.
The fee to have the car sold to you.
Pet fee if you plan on having your dog or cat ride in the car with you.
The UC minor fee if you plan on leaving anybody in the car by themselves who are under the age of 15.

On top of all that, there will be all sorts of taxes and fee's. Taxes depend upon where you plan on driving your car. If you plan on driving the car across the border to Mexico or Canada, there will be INS and custom fee's. Certain cities will charge you to drive through them and so forth. . . .

[This message has been edited by Tango (edited Jan 15, 2004).]

You obviously have no clue as to what constitutes fraud. Before you start rendering a legal opinion, please do us all a favor and do a little homework first so you can at least post something semi-educated.

Such a strongly worded rebuke is hardly called for. The original poster was not expressing a legal opinion, but rather his/her opinion that the terms of this particular offer are unfair.

I happen to think the the terms are neiter fraudulent (in the legal sense) nor unfair. The poster merely makes a rational economic decision not to upgrade the available fares if the cost to do so exceeds the value to him/her of the free ticket. However, there are many other travelers who will earn the free ticket without purchasing more expensive tickets than they otherwise would: business travelers, for example, who do not qualify for the deeply discounted fares to which the promotion does not apply. And it is, after all, these flyers who the airlines are trying to attract.

FedEx and UPS both have fuel surcharges right now, is that fraud too?

Where is the line? You know what the product will cost, and they will be more then happy to break the charges down into the parts that add up to it.

Again, it's the total cost that matters.

The fuel surchage is a bit questionable. The price of fuel is a cost of doing business but the airlines do not want to raise their base rates so they put the surchage in the tax accounting lines. These taxes do not have to be shown when looking at published fares.

Even the DOT does not like this and is trying to stop the airlines from doing this.

With all due respect, did you not read the other posts i made in the same thread:

"fair enough, "fraud" is a bit extreme. the underlying principle, however, is what bothers me so much."

"again, i'm sorry i used the word "fraud"... i'm just frustrated at how deceptive the marketing can be and i don't like when businesses play games like this with their customers."

i mispoke in my original post and i retracted that statement twice. i don't know what about my post in the first place constituted a 'legal' opinion...i thought that this was a forum where we can talk casually amongst each other and discuss certain topics. this is the first time i've posted on the "MilesBuzz!" forum and i feel like i'm being grilled by camryn manheim in an episode of "the practice".

in the future, i hope you and the rest of the flyertalk community will take opportunities like this to help others see things from a different perspective and impart your knowledge and experience onto others, rather than using it as an opportunity to insult and bully people. i've never encountered so much hostility from total strangers.

i'll try to "do my homework" next time. and i guess watching a little judge judy wouldn't hurt either.

So offering a discount on a product that's not the cheapest one available is fraud? I love FT.

I guess a lot depends on your viewpoint. While this is not the situation described you described, yalie25, consider the possibility of the good old last minute reservation because you absolutely have to be somewhere tomorrow, or tonight.

You're going to pay out the nose for the ticket, promo or no promo. In these cases, I think of the offer as a freebie (since I was going to buy the expensive ticket anyway).

The offer certainly didn't increase Delta's revenue, but it was a good thing for me.

Just a thought...

Whether the airlines (or any other company selling its product) itemize the various charges or not, as long as the charges are displayed up-front before I put the plastic on the table (or click the final "submit") I don't really care.

Think of this common situation: you are considering which of two washing machines to purchase. They are identical in all respects, save that one is $399 including free installation and delivery, whereas the other is $349 with a $50 installation and delivery fee. Assuming that one does not wish to self-install, one should be indifferent between the two, even though one is "cheaper." Sure, one can say that he/she would prefer to self-install--but that is a different product/service combination, just as one may choose to purchase a cheaper connecting instead of a non-stop flight.

Similarly, disclosed terms and conditions of special offers are perfectly fine. The DL and AA offers are no different than the restaurant that offers a buy one, get one free offer with the caveat that the discount only applies to the cheaper item.

What's more misleading is the AA commercial for their promo -> fly twice and get a ticket anywhere they fly...

In the commercial, you see a number of people yelling out a destination where they want to go, like Waikiki, Bahamas, Bali (?)... wait a min. AA doesn't fly to Bali... So, with the free ticket, how can one fly to Bali???? I think only AA's partner fly to Bali... The only Asian destination that AA fly to is Tokyo, no?

In my opinion, that's misleading!

i disagree on this point--they are different--because a restaurant would never say 'buy one get one free'--subject to availability. the free meal is only available depending on whether the restaurant feels like giving free food out that day or not. the free meal doesn't have blackout dates. and the free meal doesn't involve having to make reservations several months in advance, etc...

I disagree--and so does the DOT. A fuel surcharge allows them to raise their airfares but not show it in their advertisising or published fares.

I am amazed at how many people are defending the airlines in how they market their product when they would complain if any other business tried the same.