Lets all tak a few deep breaths......
 

As children, we all engaged in testing limits - seeing how far we could go before we were reprimanded/punished.

As adults, we should be able to respect the fact that certain rules are gray, and testing their limits is not in our best interest.

Randy and the whole gang at Inside Flyer have created this forum for us to exchange ideas and suggestions. I for one have enjoyed it and profited from it.

If I have something to say that I do not want edited in any way, I can send it as an e-mail. Ditto any one trying to reach me.

IMHO Let's not "mess up a good thing" because we do not agree with our hosts opinion as to the exact placement of the boundaries. We all know how to get around them.

If our "uncle" doesn't want us "drinking or fraternizing" under his "roof", we must respect his rules if we choose to be his guests. BUT, we can always go outside or elsewhere if we wish.

So deep breaths all around. And everyone PLEEEASSEEE calm down.

...just one opinion from Jerzee.....

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Dave, I think this is fair enough, but if you look back far enough you will see that the original name chosen by the controversial contributer was F U K U. This raised a lot of eyebrows, and after someone complained, InsideFlyer deleted this persona.

A discussion ensued ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000190.html ), and ~chan was appended to the original name. This alteration appeared to gain the approval of Randy et al... but six months later someone seems to have deemed the new name offensive.

Perhaps another contributer/lurker complained to the webmaster about the choice of name, but I think that the subsequent actions taken by everyone involved have left a lot to be desired.
* If someone complained about the name, I think it would have been fair to advise the contributer in question that this was the reason why they were being asked to change their name (perhaps with a forwarded message with identification removed?)
* f u k u chan undoubtedly over-reacted - perhaps he should have taken a few deep breaths before responding - he may have been able to offer a more reasoned, rational response, reminding the webmaster of the history of his name choices
* Deleting the thread discussing this only created more ill-feeling and undercurrents of tension.

In the past I have appreciated the great latitude given to us by Randy and all at Webflyer. One of the hallmarks of this community is mutual trust and respect, and this has been undermined by recent events.

Baobab, personally I happen to completely agree with you. I'm simply suggesting that these are two different issues.

Anyone who believes/believed this board was a democracy....well, 'nuff said.

My point is that the reality of Flyertalk, Inside Flyer, Webflyer, etc. being our "host" exists. And agree with them or not, they've taken on the expense and responsibility of running the board. I wouldn't ever presume to see this from their position.

No matter if I agree or disagree with them, I can't fight "their" rules on "their" board. And even if I could, I enjoy Flyertalk too much to want to. I'd just rather stay in my position, and get as much out of it as I can.

Am I saddened by some recent decisions? Yes.

Who was it who said something like in a free market of ideas the truth will always win? I forget.


[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 04-02-99).]

I don't like moving goalposts, NJD http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

A few random thoughts over my first cup of coffee on Saturday morning:

1. I have never found an online community such as this one. FT has become a part of my daily life -- even when I don't have time to take a few deep breaths, I'll still gravitate to FT to see what is going on (usually while sitting on hold in the office!).

This truly is an amazing group of people -- thoughtful, caring, generally polite (Hi MERRY! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) and, most of all, very giving of their knowledge and expertise.

Such a place is very special and I for one am very grateful to our hosts for providing this unique opportunity.

2. My first take on the whole F U K U chan issue was that he had overreacted. It reminded me of me 10 years ago. I was unaware of the previous issues with his name. Once I had learned that from Baobab's posting the previous thread, I was somewhat upset. Changing the rules 6 months down the road is a bit capricious! Demanding someone to prove their identity smacks of heavy-handedness.

3. Last evening, after a miserable day at work yesterday, I logged on to see the discussion of F U K U chan's fate. The threads were gone. Only Marvella's thread existed (and in the name of logic and consistency why hasn't it been deleted?) -- welcome back Marvella where the heck you been?

I posted to the F U K U chan thread. I gave my opinion. I wanted to know what others thought. That's one of the reasons I come to FT! Unfortunately, I'll never know...

4. When I logged on this morning the first thread in the buzz involved a 25k mile offer from MCI. A thread started by F U K U chan. I seem to recall that there was a grass roots campaign staged to honor F U K U chan with the March OMNI award for this thread. How many free tickets were earned by our community because of this thread?

And yet I'm staring at the dreaded F U K U chan name. Any consistency in that? Well we don't like his name so we're going to delete his account -- but that's a good post so we'll leave it?

5. Lurkers. We often mention them in a somewhat whimsical way. We know the airlines, hotels, etc., are aware of this board and they do come here to see what we discuss.

What we haven't known is that Big Brother is watching us very closely. And it gives me an uncomfortable feeling. We can and do self-police this community quite well -- anyone remember jaucutt -- that's one of the unique attributes of the FT community.

6. When it's all said and done ("oh goody he's gonna shut up now!" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) --

We lost a valuable member of our community. Let's hope we all learn from this action -- ALL of us, even those who lurk and pull the strings and decide who lives and who dies.

res ipsa loquitor

Seeing as my name has been dragged into this thread, I will state my view.

It is very simple, I have held the view that WE have managed to maintain a level of decorum and sevility which is unusual in such a forum.

Recent events have blown that theory out of the water. We have commercial sponsors and their commercial interests have recently become plain.

For my part this forum is no longer what it was. Every time I post now I consider how the post will sit with our hosts.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with this, simply that it is not what I expected from this forum.

My view is that InsideFlyer was able to gain some insight from this forum, an insight which was as a result of sensible mature discussion - with a little bit of friendly humour - I am very dissapointed that censorship has recently become apparent.

I think it is time for me to consider if I need to find an alternative forum, where I do not feel concerned about voicing my opinions.
Nick

[This message has been edited by Merry (edited 04-03-99).]

Onefreeman, good points and I agree with you and the inconsitancy of it. But this use in alot of these posts of the word censorship has a nasty ring to it, but some forms of it are used thousands of times every day. The evil types of censorship attempt to make illegal or totally surpress a thought, idea or action from ever reaching the public. Most private boards that I particpate in are moderated by someone in authority, and objectionable, obsene, and unfactual items are often removed, however arbitrary and at their discresion. Even somethings as minor as an "OMNI" post are removed from some boards for being "off-topic". FlyerTalk has not had moderated boards (at least openly) and we have been pretty much free to do what we want here. Ultimatly, FlyerTalk can do what they feel appropriate to their board, period. And I am free to stop using it whenever I feel like it.

I do not agree with the ***uchan removal. I have never considered his name anything but a name. But I also don't think ***uchan's response to publish the letter and make such a final statement was the right thing to do either. I've always found the FlyerTalk folks to be more than understanding, and private communications by email, I am sure, could have resolved this to both parties satisfaction. I don't think FlyerTalk should have requested a copy of his Drivers License. If they determined his handle to be unacceptable, real name or not, they should have just explained it to him and required him to change it. It's only a handle after all. They're not asking him to change his real name!

Now on to the removal of the United survey thread. Actually this could upset me more that the ***uchan issue. But before I get upset about it, I await an explantion as to why it dissapeared. Playing the "devils advocate" again here, I could accept that it was removed at United's request. After all, it was a selective offer that was randomly made to visitors to United's web site. The fact that the URL appeared here and worked for those (like me!) who jumped on it, may have screwed up the "random" sampling that was being sought after by the survey company, by instead loading it with a bunch of hardcore frequent flyer junkies (sorry, but that's who we are! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) I think we assume that United would be glad to have it's most savy flyers respond to a random survey, but this may not be the case. In order to avoid tipping off a supplier that we have uncovered a "hidden" offer, I would suggest in the future that this info be distributed by an email chain. This would keep FlyerTalk from being put in a difficult postion, and more important, keep the offer alive longer http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif. Of course if it's a public general offer, it could posted as usual.

I think this whole thing is way overblown, and I know that this post will just make it a bigger deal, but hey...opinions are like ***holes...everyone has one! Right?

Merry, I hope you're not serious about leaving over this. Your posts are a valuable contribution to us all and your leaving would not punish FlyerTalk...it would punish us! No one should be concered about censorship or censorship will win out! Just post here without concern of it and react to it if you feel it ever does happen without warrent.

As NJ says, let's all take a few deep breaths, continue on the way we have and see what transpires. I think our hosts have seen our concerns and, hopefully F U K U CHAN and M E R R Y (the "Flyer" left now I hope Merry doesn't too) will continue their incredibly valuable contributions.

Premex: Thanks for your post - however I am very serious, on a recent post on the BA thread I included the phone number of a BA Director.

After the UA incident I considered the position of our hosts, I then posted that I would remove the 'phone number.

In the end I didn't, but I have got to the point where I am concerned about offending our hosts. This may well be my problem, but I never felt this before.

Very simply, I am beginning to feel uncomfortable in this forum. I don't wish to "punish" anyone, but the great beauty of this forum is its maturity - I now question the acceptability of my own postings.
Nick

This Big Brother thing is out of proportion. F_U_K_U_C_H_A_N has (I have no problem in typing his full handle) every right to be here. I too feel that every post now has another meaning, that it's no longer a greater contribution to the board, but maybe something that may offend someone or even trigger a heated discussion that will eventually be censored by FT. I haven't felt this way until now.

I know how it feels to be censored. I am a member of another board and my postings were deleted- Simply because the moderator thought it wasn't good enough for the thread. Once I got a warning for publishing an e-mail address. I also OWN my own board, and even though it's not as popular as this one, I, as the "host" and "moderator" won't disrupt the discussions, and only remove profane and perhaps illegal postings.

I WILL take a few deep breaths- Long ones. And until everything is back to normal, see you LATER.

timchen

[This message has been edited by timchen (edited 04-03-99).]

What was this deal with United? This thread must have been deleted before I saw it. From what I can gather, it was a special offer for only random website visitors, and a FF found it and passed on the tip. How obnoxious and controlling if UA asked FT to delete it. That is certainly poor business practice on the part of UA. If anyone knows of this deal could you email it to me? I would really appreciate it.

Rice -- I doubt UA had anything to do with the deletion of the survey threads. There were (at one point) valid questions as to the validity of the survey. I was probably the most vocal of the croud doubting the validity of it. Eventually it turned out to be real. At the same time, the survey was closed too. Made the whole discussion/thread pointless, so I can see it being deleted.

Anyhow, survey's up again. Check the "General Info" thread on UA.

First of all -- apologies to Merry for dragging him into this. Unfortunately this is a static medium and my thought at the time was that Nick is one of the most caustic of our members. His posts are also some of the most enjoyable and energetic -- posts which are also some of the most cogent and informative. I love his posts -- the BA/Virgin tete a tetes -- I wouldn't consider flying Virgin if it were the last seat on Dec 31 1999 to London because of him!! I hope my using your name in jest didn't bring about even more angst viz your relationship to FT.

PremEx: You stated that "Most private boards that I particpate in are moderated by someone in authority, and objectionable, obscene, and unfactual items are often removed, however arbitrary and at their discresion."

Personally, I wouldn't participate in a forum that allowed such. I am at a loss to see how F U K U C H A N 's posts -- or his handle -- can be elevated to objectionable, obscene, or unfactual.

Your point as to an explanation to the recent somewhat abrupt behavior of our hosts is well founded. FT owes us nothing. At the same time, we are what makes FT live and breathe with our knowledge, expertise and humor. As someone who has contributed more than 200 times (ok many are just OMNI nonsense) I think even a brief explanation of the process and thinking behind the removal of one of our community is in order.

Yes PremEx -- this IS blown out of proportion and for my part in doing the "blowing" I apologize.

Needless to say this whole episode leaves a bitter taste for me

[This message has been edited by onefreeman (edited 04-03-99).]