Any ethical issues from the airlines point of view with this scenario?
Nov 4, 2008 | 5:54 pm
#1
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Any ethical issues from the airlines point of view with this scenario?
I have a friend that flies about once every month from point A to point B for business meetings. Because she flies in and out with only an overnight, the flights typically cost $1000.
I suggested she do the following, but want to make sure there not any eithical issues with this scenario:
Fly from point A to point B on a one-way ticket on January 2.
Puchase a round trip ticket from point B to point A on January 3 with a return from point A to B for February 2.
Purchase a round trip ticket from point B to point A on February 3 with a return from point A to B for March 2.
Repeat.
Purchasing round trip tickets without an immediate turn-around costs about $350, saving $650 each trip. So in essence she would book the round trip flights to start from her destination airport.
Thanks for you insights.
I suggested she do the following, but want to make sure there not any eithical issues with this scenario:
Fly from point A to point B on a one-way ticket on January 2.
Puchase a round trip ticket from point B to point A on January 3 with a return from point A to B for February 2.
Purchase a round trip ticket from point B to point A on February 3 with a return from point A to B for March 2.
Repeat.
Purchasing round trip tickets without an immediate turn-around costs about $350, saving $650 each trip. So in essence she would book the round trip flights to start from her destination airport.
Thanks for you insights.
Nov 4, 2008 | 6:12 pm
#2
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Within consulting I was introduced to the Saturday night idea. Basically instead of flying Monday-Thursday from Home to Work, you fly Thursday-Monday, from Work to Home. She'll be doing the same, except for a longer period (month, instead of weekend). I don't see why anything would be wrong.
Nov 4, 2008 | 6:20 pm
#3
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Shouldn't be since you aren't nesting the tickets or otherwise violating any typical fare rules. If an airline is willing to sell you a one-way fare, then no problems. The airline can restrict one-way tickets to higher fares if they so choose.
Nov 4, 2008 | 8:55 pm
#4
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The ethics don't matter, it's the contract of carriage & ticket rules.
As long as the first ticket is a one-way, as you suggest, she's fine. If she instead booked a roundtrip A-B-A out on Jan 2 and back later in the year, that could be a violation.
As long as the first ticket is a one-way, as you suggest, she's fine. If she instead booked a roundtrip A-B-A out on Jan 2 and back later in the year, that could be a violation.
Nov 6, 2008 | 1:00 am
#5
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Why would that be a violation? The airline is obligated to fly you from point A to B on a certain date and from B to A on another certain date. You are free to go and do anything you want in between those days. If you miss tour B-A flight, the maximum penalty they can do is keep your money.
Nov 6, 2008 | 4:07 am
#6
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...if I understand this right...
I think two round trips would work as well. Let's say UA and AA go to both places with similar itineraries... Wouldn't this work?
Fly A-B on UA on Jan 2.
Fly B-A on AA on Jan 3.
Fly A-B on AA on Feb 2.
Fly B-A on UA on Feb 3.
Your RT on UA is Jan 2- Feb 3
Your Rt on AA is Jan 3-Feb 2
Who cares?
Who knows if, while in B, you also flew to Maui and back on DL?
I hope the friend earns miles and hotel points too!
YOu could also discover that one way tickets cost a lot but if you bought a round trip to start or end the process, as described in your OP, then you could always
lose
the other half or use it someday far off in the future for a fee until it's no longer valid. As long as they don't know you originally intended this, your over all ticket price for that one ticket would probably be less. And now that I got into ethics, I guess it depends on whether you consider the airline POLICY to be the same as a state or Fed LAW and vs.
MM
Fly A-B on UA on Jan 2.
Fly B-A on AA on Jan 3.
Fly A-B on AA on Feb 2.
Fly B-A on UA on Feb 3.
Your RT on UA is Jan 2- Feb 3
Your Rt on AA is Jan 3-Feb 2
Who cares?
Who knows if, while in B, you also flew to Maui and back on DL?
I hope the friend earns miles and hotel points too!
YOu could also discover that one way tickets cost a lot but if you bought a round trip to start or end the process, as described in your OP, then you could always
lose
the other half or use it someday far off in the future for a fee until it's no longer valid. As long as they don't know you originally intended this, your over all ticket price for that one ticket would probably be less. And now that I got into ethics, I guess it depends on whether you consider the airline POLICY to be the same as a state or Fed LAW and vs.
MM
Last edited by Marathon Man; Nov 6, 2008 at 4:22 am
Nov 6, 2008 | 5:34 am
#7
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Sure, it's differrent carriers and sure, they are not likely to know what's happening on the other, but, say AA tries to put you on UA due to irrops - whoops, busted!
Stick with the original plan.
Nov 6, 2008 | 7:14 am
#8
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Why would that be a violation? The airline is obligated to fly you from point A to B on a certain date and from B to A on another certain date. You are free to go and do anything you want in between those days. If you miss tour B-A flight, the maximum penalty they can do is keep your money.
Flying another airline doesn't violate the T&C, iirc, but I can't be certain on that.
Actually the maximum they can do is not fly you home, leaving you with the option of buying a full fare ticket while standing in line at the airport.
Nov 8, 2008 | 9:44 pm
#9
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If you are afraid of getting caught for nesting and don't want to pay for high o/w tickets then try Southwest for the original and final ticket as they sell their tickets on a o/w basis anyway. And if you purchase early enough then you probably will find discounted tickets.
Then again, your friend maybe should consider Southwest for a quick roundtrip.
Then again, your friend maybe should consider Southwest for a quick roundtrip.
Nov 9, 2008 | 3:21 am
#10
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And if the other airline did put you on one in the plan, it's still something that's making me wonder why one could not have pre-plan trips and do what I wrote.
If the actual intent is to merely complete round trip flights and go to two destinations all the time (you could even own property in both and actually be able to prove some sort of residency in both) then why is it wrong? I really do not understand and am sorry for this, but I gots ta know.
Nov 9, 2008 | 5:19 am
#12
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a couple of points
first, the op's post describes what is called "back-to-back ticketing", not "nesting."
if you practice "back-to-back ticketing" on ONE airline you will most likely get into trouble sooner or later. they won't bill you for the "correct" revenue ["correct" according to their point of view], but at the least they will more than likely lock up your ff account.
HOWEVER, if you practice "back-to-back ticketing" by using TWO airlines, you will have no problems. and contrary to what one poster wrote ["if aa puts you on ua due to irrops", you will be caught] -- this could not be further from the truth.
how you book your travel is up to you.
how you spend your time in a city depends on you.
how your company decides to send you to one city or another is up to you/them.
the airline cannot tell you otherwise.
op - follow what Marathon Man has posted and ignore any other post in contradiction to his, he is correct.
incidentally, "nesting" is simply making a trip to a different city before returning to your original point of departure; this is what it looks like:
Date 1 DEP XXX ARR YYY
Date 2 DEP YYY ARR ZZZ
Date 3 DEP ZZZ ARR YYY
Date 4 DEP YYY ARR XXX
if you practice "back-to-back ticketing" on ONE airline you will most likely get into trouble sooner or later. they won't bill you for the "correct" revenue ["correct" according to their point of view], but at the least they will more than likely lock up your ff account.
HOWEVER, if you practice "back-to-back ticketing" by using TWO airlines, you will have no problems. and contrary to what one poster wrote ["if aa puts you on ua due to irrops", you will be caught] -- this could not be further from the truth.
how you book your travel is up to you.
how you spend your time in a city depends on you.
how your company decides to send you to one city or another is up to you/them.
the airline cannot tell you otherwise.
op - follow what Marathon Man has posted and ignore any other post in contradiction to his, he is correct.
incidentally, "nesting" is simply making a trip to a different city before returning to your original point of departure; this is what it looks like:
Date 1 DEP XXX ARR YYY
Date 2 DEP YYY ARR ZZZ
Date 3 DEP ZZZ ARR YYY
Date 4 DEP YYY ARR XXX
Nov 9, 2008 | 5:42 am
#13
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I found this AA form letter to Travel Agencies on the AA site which explains the AA position on this:
Let me take the opportunity to clarify American Airlines position on back-to-back ticketing. Since passengers utilizing back-to-back tickets are not remaining at their original destination over the required Saturday night, but returning on a second ticket, the intent to circumvent our tariffs is clear, and may be construed as common law fraud. As such, passengers who attempt to use back-to-back tickets may be denied boarding, have the remainder of their ticket confiscated, and may be assessed the difference between the fare paid and the lowest applicable fare.
Restrictions on back-to-back ticketing help American offer frequent flights to business travelers, and inexpensive travel to leisure travelers. Leisure travelers are willing to accept various kinds of restrictions, including non-refundability, advance purchase and minimum-stay requirements, in exchange for low prices. They then help fill the excess capacity that is a natural consequence of providing frequent service to fit the business travelers' needs. Without the ability to charge different fares to leisure and business travelers, American would not be able to offer as many flights.
In most cases the minimum stay requirement on discount fares is a Saturday-night stay. This is intended to discourage use of the restricted fares by business-travelers since, in most cases, business travelers prefer to get home quickly. Indeed, part of the reason business travelers like frequent flights is that frequent service increases a business travelers ability to minimize overall travel time, and maximize time either at the office or at home. Leisure travelers, however, are choosing to spend their leisure time traveling, and frequently stay over a Saturday night.
Although the issuance and usage of back-to-back tickets is not illegal in the sense that one could be fined or sent to jail by the government, it is a breach of a passengers contract with American Airlines. Both Tariff Rule 100AA and American's Condition of Carriage, which are incorporated into every ticket sold by American as part of our agreement to carry the passenger named on the ticket, bar back-to-back ticketing. In addition, it violates the agencies' contract to act as an agent for American Airlines.
Achieving the correct proportion of passengers who purchase the higher unrestricted fares and those who purchase the lower discounted fares allows us to continue offering timely and frequent schedules with the type of service our frequent flyers desire and at a reasonable price. It also enables us to make air fares even more affordable for those who wish to travel for pleasure. Back-to-back ticketing upsets this balance and, if it is allowed to proliferate, will lead to higher air fares and less service for all.
Restrictions on back-to-back ticketing help American offer frequent flights to business travelers, and inexpensive travel to leisure travelers. Leisure travelers are willing to accept various kinds of restrictions, including non-refundability, advance purchase and minimum-stay requirements, in exchange for low prices. They then help fill the excess capacity that is a natural consequence of providing frequent service to fit the business travelers' needs. Without the ability to charge different fares to leisure and business travelers, American would not be able to offer as many flights.
In most cases the minimum stay requirement on discount fares is a Saturday-night stay. This is intended to discourage use of the restricted fares by business-travelers since, in most cases, business travelers prefer to get home quickly. Indeed, part of the reason business travelers like frequent flights is that frequent service increases a business travelers ability to minimize overall travel time, and maximize time either at the office or at home. Leisure travelers, however, are choosing to spend their leisure time traveling, and frequently stay over a Saturday night.
Although the issuance and usage of back-to-back tickets is not illegal in the sense that one could be fined or sent to jail by the government, it is a breach of a passengers contract with American Airlines. Both Tariff Rule 100AA and American's Condition of Carriage, which are incorporated into every ticket sold by American as part of our agreement to carry the passenger named on the ticket, bar back-to-back ticketing. In addition, it violates the agencies' contract to act as an agent for American Airlines.
Achieving the correct proportion of passengers who purchase the higher unrestricted fares and those who purchase the lower discounted fares allows us to continue offering timely and frequent schedules with the type of service our frequent flyers desire and at a reasonable price. It also enables us to make air fares even more affordable for those who wish to travel for pleasure. Back-to-back ticketing upsets this balance and, if it is allowed to proliferate, will lead to higher air fares and less service for all.
Nov 9, 2008 | 6:19 am
#14
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You are violating the terms and conditions of the ticket you purchased. You stated that "I agree to the terms and conditions", either explicitly or implicitly at some point in the transaction.
The airlines make the rules, offer you to buy a ticket under those rules, and provide the penalties for violating those rules. Their penalty for violating the terms of the travel contract are to rescind that contract, as spelled out in terms the purchaser agrees to.
EDIT: I should have read the above. AA drops the hint of fraud, so I suppose intent to violate a legal contract could be charged, and a "legal" violation could theoretically occur (IINAL). But, in reality, I think violation of the T&C's and revocation of the ticket is all that you are risking.
Sorry, but I don't agree. The airline can indeed tell you that they are selling you a ticket with certain terms and conditions. You freely agree to these when you buy the ticket. If you don't want to be bound by those terms, they have other sets of T&C's (full-fare refundable tickets) that do not have these restrictions. Just like you can't buy a 14-day advance fare as a a walkup by stating "you can't tell me when to buy my tickets", you can't just chose to ignore terms you agreed to. Again, IINAL but have discussed this with a lawyer to understand the situation. If YAAL, please clarify and I'll have another conversation with my lawyer..
Last edited by CPRich; Nov 9, 2008 at 6:28 am
Nov 9, 2008 | 7:29 am
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In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it's illegal for the airlines to work together in this way.
Maybe they're wrong and maybe you can sue them, but do you have the resources? Check the UA forum for an excellent thread concerning someone suing UA. It makes for great reading but I'm glad it's not me.