White Envelopes - Question about another tactic
Apr 15, 2003 | 1:39 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chappaqua, NY Where's my Bubbly?
Programs: UA 1K 1MM; AA EXP
Posts: 894
White Envelopes - Question about another tactic
I'd love to hear opinions from lawyers on this:
What if an EBAY seller says that the auction is for the seller's time to go to the airline ticket office and issue free tickets in the buyer's name. Would this get around the no selling miles (since what is being paid for is the seller's time to get tickets issued)
Just wandering - seems more "fair" if you must sell miles...not that I advocate/against this practice.
What if an EBAY seller says that the auction is for the seller's time to go to the airline ticket office and issue free tickets in the buyer's name. Would this get around the no selling miles (since what is being paid for is the seller's time to get tickets issued)
Just wandering - seems more "fair" if you must sell miles...not that I advocate/against this practice.
Apr 15, 2003 | 2:01 pm
#2
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: EU rotating
Posts: 2,926
But how do you prove that the seller was an authorised representative of the buyer? Why were THEY allowed to go to the ticket office to get the tix for someone else? Me thinks, that some sort of a (enorcable) contract is needed for this.
Apr 15, 2003 | 2:03 pm
#3
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
Posts: 1,013
I'm not a lawyer - but be serious. Would you reasonably expect anyone to pay $1000 just for someone else to go to the airport (if you weren't going to receive some other benefit)? If not, then don't expect the airlines to buy that argument.
Apr 15, 2003 | 2:05 pm
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chappaqua, NY Where's my Bubbly?
Programs: UA 1K 1MM; AA EXP
Posts: 894
Well, yes, $1000 for say a half day's "work" to drive to some ticket office DOES seem reasonable - I mean this would be something in line with what a mid-range lawyer would charge in NY or Tokyo (something like $300 an hour or so).
In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.
In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.
Apr 15, 2003 | 2:39 pm
#6
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: AUS
Programs: DL Flying Colonel
Posts: 4,027
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by J-H:
Well, yes, $1000 for say a half day's "work" to drive to some ticket office DOES seem reasonable - I mean this would be something in line with what a mid-range lawyer would charge in NY or Tokyo (something like $300 an hour or so).
In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.</font>
Well, yes, $1000 for say a half day's "work" to drive to some ticket office DOES seem reasonable - I mean this would be something in line with what a mid-range lawyer would charge in NY or Tokyo (something like $300 an hour or so).
In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.</font>
Apr 15, 2003 | 5:23 pm
#7
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Newark, CA
Posts: 53
How bout selling a blow up doll and including a free upgrade? If the airline asks about it, just tell them you bought a blow up doll from a buddy with miles and it came with an upgrade. 
[This message has been edited by Window_Seat (edited 04-15-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Window_Seat (edited 04-15-2003).]
Apr 15, 2003 | 6:37 pm
#8
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
Posts: 1,013
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by J-H:
Well, yes, $1000 for say a half day's "work" to drive to some ticket office DOES seem reasonable - I mean this would be something in line with what a mid-range lawyer would charge in NY or Tokyo (something like $300 an hour or so).
In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.</font>
Well, yes, $1000 for say a half day's "work" to drive to some ticket office DOES seem reasonable - I mean this would be something in line with what a mid-range lawyer would charge in NY or Tokyo (something like $300 an hour or so).
In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.</font>
Besides, this really isn't a question about what would hold up in court - it is a question of whether the airline will unilaterally cancel your ticket and freeze your account.
Apr 15, 2003 | 7:03 pm
#9
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Danville, CA, USA;
Programs: UA 1MM, WN CP, Marriott LT Plat, Hilton Gold, IC Plat
Posts: 18,069
Assuming the matter went to court, a judget would look to the substance of the transaction to determine what was being sold.
The law does not recognize legal fiction of selling a "white envelope" as it is clear that the consideration paid (e.g. $1000) is not for the envelope but what is contained therein. Similarly, an auction for your "time" spent at the airport would be considered a legal fiction since the buyer is paying for the free ticket not for your time.
People sell white envelopes all the time on ebay but it won't make any difference if they get caught selling - at least from a legal perspective.
The law does not recognize legal fiction of selling a "white envelope" as it is clear that the consideration paid (e.g. $1000) is not for the envelope but what is contained therein. Similarly, an auction for your "time" spent at the airport would be considered a legal fiction since the buyer is paying for the free ticket not for your time.
People sell white envelopes all the time on ebay but it won't make any difference if they get caught selling - at least from a legal perspective.
Apr 15, 2003 | 11:35 pm
#11
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
How about auctioning off an honest to god, real life hooker and having her deliver a free SWU with her service? 
Form v. Substance.
The substance of the transaction is the sale of the cert (which is forbidden by the airlines).
Doesn't matter what form you try to cloak around it - it's still a sale of a cert (not allowed by the terms of the airline issuing the cert).
Form v. Substance.
The substance of the transaction is the sale of the cert (which is forbidden by the airlines).
Doesn't matter what form you try to cloak around it - it's still a sale of a cert (not allowed by the terms of the airline issuing the cert).
Apr 16, 2003 | 10:17 am
#12
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: EU rotating
Posts: 2,926
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VolleyballFerd:
I wouldn't pay 10 cents (and neither would anyone else) for someone they don't know, to go somewhere just for the sake of them going there. If you do find it reasonable, let me know - I'll go to the airport every day if you'll give me $1000 each time</font>
I wouldn't pay 10 cents (and neither would anyone else) for someone they don't know, to go somewhere just for the sake of them going there. If you do find it reasonable, let me know - I'll go to the airport every day if you'll give me $1000 each time
</font>
Yes, it took me about 25 minutes to find a parking spot, not to mention the cost of toll on the bridge and my lost time from work BUT I still did it. I never expected to gain anything from it. I merely wanted to help out someone who is part of our FT community. Am I weird or just too helpful?
Apr 16, 2003 | 10:25 am
#13
Flyertalk Evangelist and Moderator: Coupon Connection and Travel Products
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milton, GA USA
Programs: Hilton Diamond, IHG Platinum Elite, Hyatt Discoverist, Radisson Elite
Posts: 19,217
Spider,
Why choose? Can you be BOTH weird and helpful?
William
Why choose? Can you be BOTH weird and helpful?
William
Apr 16, 2003 | 1:53 pm
#15
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SFO/JFK
Programs: UA 1P MM, AA-PP, AS, DL
Posts: 2,060
What's an "airline ticket office"? I often gift tickets to friends and family. They pay the taxes and fee's and will generally buy me dinner or something. I hope that would not be considered "selling" the ticket, if so then I'm very guilty. UA come and get me