A question about white envelopes
Apr 15, 2003 | 1:28 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 98
A question about white envelopes
With all this discussion about airlines going after those who sell miles it got me wondering, why do people sell "white envelopes" with free miles on ebay or wherever? The airlines are going to slam you anyways so why bother with the envelope?
Apr 15, 2003 | 6:36 am
#2
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Massachusetts, USA; AA 2.996MM & Plat Pro, DL 1MM, GM & Flying Colonel
Posts: 25,033
Legally, the envelopes serve no purpose. The term (if you want to ask a lawyer) is "form versus substance." If a reasonable person in possession of all the relevant facts would conclude that what's being sold is in fact an airline award, all the plain white envelopes and cute words about "free gifts" won't make a whit of difference.
The airlines know this. They do whatever they'd do if the envelope wasn't involved. The envelope doesn't stop them. AFAIK nobody has ever used it successfully as a defense.
I don't see why anyone bothers. Then again, I don't sell airline awards, either.
The airlines know this. They do whatever they'd do if the envelope wasn't involved. The envelope doesn't stop them. AFAIK nobody has ever used it successfully as a defense.
I don't see why anyone bothers. Then again, I don't sell airline awards, either.
Apr 15, 2003 | 11:34 am
#6
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: RDU
Posts: 2,343
The real issue for these non-sellable airline items is that most can be legally "given away," just not sold.
Clearly, the white envelope is nothing more than a charade.
However, what if the item in question came days apart (let's say an upgrade cert). Meaning, the owner sends the white envelope to the winning bidder upon payment. They strike up a 3 or 4 day e-mail dialogue to become "friends," and then the cert owner gifts the cert to his/her new friend.
Certainly, that skirts the rules; but at some point, it's probably not worth it for the airlines to pursue it over a $75 transaction.
Clearly, the white envelope is nothing more than a charade.
However, what if the item in question came days apart (let's say an upgrade cert). Meaning, the owner sends the white envelope to the winning bidder upon payment. They strike up a 3 or 4 day e-mail dialogue to become "friends," and then the cert owner gifts the cert to his/her new friend.
Certainly, that skirts the rules; but at some point, it's probably not worth it for the airlines to pursue it over a $75 transaction.
Apr 15, 2003 | 12:38 pm
#7
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: EU rotating
Posts: 2,926
What if I offered an airline menu or a shaving kit for sale on e-bay and included 2 free SWU's/VIPOW's with it?
Would it be any different from a 'white envelope'? What do our legal experts say? There must be a way to trade miles/certs without breaching any laws/regulations... apart from not selling, of course!
Would it be any different from a 'white envelope'? What do our legal experts say? There must be a way to trade miles/certs without breaching any laws/regulations... apart from not selling, of course!
Apr 15, 2003 | 1:04 pm
#8
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1MM, Delta Plat
Posts: 11,224
Is this really a whole lot different that the mass mail schemes where you're not allowed to do a pyramid chain letter asking for money, but it's okay if there is something of "value" you are purchasing or offering for sale? The item for sale is a letter telling you how to get mailing lists to send people chain letters. (or so I've heard 
)
)
Apr 15, 2003 | 1:15 pm
#9
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,040
Its really not against the law. Its a breach of your agreement with the airline and gives them the right to impose a forfeiture of your other miles (according to the airlines, although the legality of this is questionable). Its also a violation of the TOS of eBay because they don't want to get sued by the airline for interfering with their contract with their FF's. So certain consequences may result, but its not against the law in the sense that you are a criminal or can go to jail.
Apr 16, 2003 | 12:27 am
#10
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRT/PDX - UA 1P
Posts: 433
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Spider:
What if I offered an airline menu or a shaving kit for sale on e-bay and included 2 free SWU's/VIPOW's with it?</font>
What if I offered an airline menu or a shaving kit for sale on e-bay and included 2 free SWU's/VIPOW's with it?</font>
But, I did find an interesting piece in the ebay rules:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Bonuses and Prizes
It is generally permissible for sellers to offer a bonus item to bidders within their listing (...) the seller must state the exact price at which the bonus will apply. For example, it is not permissible to state, "I will throw in a state-of-the-art black and white TV if bidding reaches a high enough amount." It is permissible to state, "I will throw in a state-of-the-art black and white TV if bidding reaches $150."</font>
It is generally permissible for sellers to offer a bonus item to bidders within their listing (...) the seller must state the exact price at which the bonus will apply. For example, it is not permissible to state, "I will throw in a state-of-the-art black and white TV if bidding reaches a high enough amount." It is permissible to state, "I will throw in a state-of-the-art black and white TV if bidding reaches $150."</font>
Am I violating United's rules?
SGM
Apr 16, 2003 | 1:58 am
#11
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sunny Switzerland
Programs: BD / BA / AF
Posts: 4,388
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by redbeard911:
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...</font>
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...</font>