Buy stuff and return... for miles?
 

I have noticed several ways of getting free miles for a little work. Certain merchants will let you return merchandise and give you cash back instead of a credit card refund (they prefer it, actually, since it is quicker to do). This is also a cool free cash advance. You can also do this in some universities: enroll for a course, pay for it, then drop out during the 100% refund period. Many schools will send you a check.

My question is: why is this not a popular method? Is this unethical in some people's minds?

I wonder why would companies do that. It's customary to refund the money in the form in which it was originally tendered, especially that a typical business takes a 2-3% loss on each credit card transaction. Issuing checks isn't cheap either.

The schools that refund via check are probably a result of government or academic bureaucracy.

The ethical choice you'll have to face with the course enrollment approach is that you're not only utilizing resources from a school (if it's a public university, money that's extremely limited and partly taxpayer funded), but you're also using up a slot for a course potentially needed by a legitimate student.

While I usually am up for a great way to get something for nothing and wouldn't mind pulling this kind of stunt on say a large-scale mass merchant with poor customer service, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable potentially interfering with students trying to get an education.

I don't think it's popular because not as many places will let you get a cash/check refund on a credit card transaction - in fact, many retailers (such as Wal-Mart and Target) will automatically credit the card back for which you made the purchase, once the receipt information is scanned into the system.

Why *any* merchant/organization would do this is beyond me, in fact - they're still on the hook for the merchant fee, and actually end up losing money on that transaction.

Mike

Ok, folks... Forget about the "why"... Who cares why? As long as I can get some free miles, then I will consider it. I know for a fact that certain merchants will do this, no questions asked. Of course, to make it worth it, I would have to buy and return, say, a laptop PC for $2K, or even a diamond ring for $15K (can't go higher due to credit limit, doh!). Doing this over a 2x/3x mile promotion (e.g., Delta Am Ex card) would be even better.

Regarding the schools, I did it a couple of times when I was young and naive. Now, I go after the big corporate dogs with profit to burn.

Yes, it IS unethical.

It is unethical in everyone's mind.

I like to buy money and return it. Most cruise ships will let you charge casino chips to your cabin account, then you cash in the chips. At the end of the cruise, one master charge is submitted to your cc company and voila, you've got miles for buying cash.

Ethics or no, I think if the company lets you do a thing like this, then so be it. In fact, I bet they like it in most cases. I mean, who's to say that, upon your first visit to store or company X, you had no intention to do this for mile gains whatsoever!

Here is my speal for supporting the idea:

If that company has a problem in this area, then that company needs to reassess and change its own policies and laws. But maybe THAT costs them too much too!

So, maybe you can let them know about the hole, or just go on collecting... I bet you find no one in there who cares anyway, and tattle-taling on this would ruin it for others who do NOT intend any harm but like an earning every once and a while.

I went to Home Depot and bought $500 worth of tiles to do a floor. Used a miles-earning debit card and PIN and I will earn miles on this purchase.

Did the job and brought back what I did not use. They gave me cash back as this can be done when you used a debit card and have your receipt on you. Since you can get cash back on such debit cards, you can also essentially get cash back on returns involving them as the original purchasing method. I actually had no idea but I like it. I earned so little, however, it should hardly matter.

Now, getting 'cash back' in the way we all normally know it does not earn miles, but this little twist or hole in the system seems to allow that very thing--currently. And if it is 'currently' the law or policy, then ask yourself this: Is it unethical to take advantage of that law? I dunno. I am no lawyer.

A side-example is this: Currently, if you go get cash back at the grocery store, you do not have to pay fees that you might have to pay at a foreign bank's ATM. Everybody knows this, but in a way you have found another legal way to 'beat the system.' And who here wants to blow THAT whistle!?!?!?

SO, seriously, is beating the system considered unethical or just something you are smart enough to take advantage of while it exists in law?

Think tax returns here, people! If you realllly know the laws and read everything, you can find many legal ways to save money and NOT even break any new or old laws in doing so! It is not always publicized but it is available to all who care to save or earn out there. (The rest are lazy)!

So anyway, the stores that give you back cash on returns (or rebate coupons which you send in) are the ones who either let this stuff happen. They either could care less or know no better right now. Or, they may think this is actually a hidden, not so publicized way of drawing in the very types of customers who think this way! I mean, I will shop at stores that do my Home Depot example BECAUSE I can get my miles on returns! So they got my business!

I also bought a product online because it allowed me to get miles for the purchase AND send in a $10 rebate coupon with the UPC code and copy of receipt. I get the miles for the whole amount charged to my card but get back $10 and they like it!

SO if these companies change this stuff for the worse, then we will pay--or not earn any more (which is essentially the same thing).
It's all about deals and rebates and deals and deals!

So take it now while it exists, and don't worry about it.

I will still buy from Home Depot and that company online who gives rebated. They will get my money, and if I get some miles for it, who cares! I do.

We both win.

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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

And if not, it should be.

Marathon Man, it is one thing to make a bonafide return or to tkae back a few extra tiles left over from the job. It is another thing completely (legal or not) to intentionally go out of your way to take advantage of a merchant.

I agree with cactuspete. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. Intentionally buying stuff to return it is unethical in my humble opinion.

So is cheating (i.e., adjusting facts) on your tax returns... but everybody does it to a degree. Yes, EVERYBODY does it.

If a store does it, they are doing it because they don't want to pay the merchant fee again on the refund, as they are then out of it twice.

I would never consider doing this, all you are doing is hurting the merchant.

"A side-example is this: Currently, if you go get cash back at the grocery store, you do not have to pay fees that you might have to pay at a foreign bank's ATM. Everybody knows this, but in a way you have found another legal way to 'beat the system.' And who here wants to blow THAT whistle!?!?!?"

I think you can do the same at any post office as they are atm transaction free. Thats nice when you're far from home and need some cash w/no fees. Would buying money orders w/ccards then rtrng m/o for $ work? PSS..ORD and SLC ahve 24-7 poffices on airport grounds; would imagine most airports have them.


[/B][/QUOTE]

It is unethical IMHO. It's funny how some people want to hold corporations to a higher standard than themselves. I represent several major insurance carriers. Frequently clients want me to lie to the company so they can save some money, but then the same people cry murder when the company charges a $4. installment fee (which is clearly disclosed on the bill). Go figure!

Uh, no. We don't.

In the UK, you could just hurt the credit card issuers. The merchant pays a fee for a Credit Card transaction and gets this back when they refund it onto the credit card. Now, it can be any credit card as these sums are netted off against each other at a high level each day. This means that you buy on a miles earning card and put it back onto a non-miles earning card and then balance transfer the money between the two cards to even out the debt.

There are a myriad of ways to cheat the system but please, LETS NOT !

And I do mean to shout here as it will only hurt the card issuer temporarily before it starts hurting us, the consumer as there is no way that the corporates will lose money.

OK, tell me how I cheat/adjust facts on my tax returns. Not everybody does it (at least not intentionally)...

Some of us believe that in the end, what matters is how we live our lives, regardless of what we can get away with.

Sorry if I sound a little defensive here...

Dan

I remember when I attended a California State University, they sent me back a check for a semester I enrolled in by credit card, but couldn't attend. But it's not something I would want to go out your way for. They don't return 100% of your money, plus I was working on a degree at the time, not trying to get some miles. Obviously, a diploma should be worth more in the long run, than 1,000 frequent flyer miles. But if one is bent on doing this, by-pass state universities (tutition is usually low). Might as well apply to a private university (like USC). Big tuitions you have to pay there, which you probably can get on a credit card. Even then, a chunk of the fees aren't going to be returned to you (like your application fee). Hardly worth it.
As far as returning purchases for cash, maybe you can return small purchases, where the merchant might just eat what they had to pay the credit card company. But if you buy a $15,000 tractor from Home Depot on your credit card, and return it the next day, I wouldn't expect them to give you cash back.

I suppose the whole topic is a tough one. Just asking if it is unethical means that person already had inner thoughts suggesting that they thought it was. So therefore, they should not do it. (Of course, this is not about premarital sex or anything larger like that, which some people have much more important ethical and other controversial, life-questions about. This is about something simpler like freaking FF miles, which havent even got their own currency standards, yet!) Boy, have I opened up some cans of worms, eh?

Now I don't cheet on taxes or my wife, or buy 15k tractors to try to get cash back, and it ain't none of yer business about the premarital sex thang, but when talking about a few miles for things like this, I suppose it is up to the person and the store and the way they both do business on that particular day. There is a sort of self-discression inside us all, eh? Ever run a stop sign at 4am?... You know the one.

In my case, I find it kinda cool to have "discovered" this little diddy in my litle miles world and will keep it in the back of my mind if needed. they'll probably stop this little leak anyway, and so all the more power to 'em! But had HD said they would put the money back on my card, I would have not even worried about it and not posted my comments. So, when they handed me cash, I decided to think this:

I decided that if I ever DO have to return something there again that I never used (like extra tiles in boxes, etc.) and I happen to have used that particular card and happened to be in this kind of over-buy+ return situation again, I would probably ask for cash. Hey, if they could give it to me instead of a charge back, I would take it and whatever benefits come with it. One of them is time. I dont have to go to that non-bank ATM across the street and pay those stupid fees for that same cash. So as for returns and cash back, if they come up with a way to deduct miles for this, so be it. I am not going to tell them how but I sure hope nobody else here does. My goodness!

Therefore, I do not think I am being unethical and am not necessarily going out of my way to do this stuff, but who knows--maybe I one day will just to try it to see about that 15k in cash for my new tractor! thanks for the tip! I might even use it first and then not tell them and still try to get my money back! ha ha.

But it (the little miles thing for probably about 100-200 miles) is something neat to know about in case you have the desire for a quick few free miles and happen to be shopping...

AGAIN: do it if you feel you think it is OK, and do NOT do it if you feel it is not ok. We are only talking about miles in this case.

Hey, once I noticed a letter I got with a stamp on it that was not cancelled. I was able to peal it off and reuse it on a new letter that I had to mail out now, with no chance to visit the PO. How bad was I, really?

Is there a gray?...


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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

how desperate are you for miles?? if everybody started doing similar things, soon we wouldnt be able to return things once they're bought..

Just becaus its legal doesn't make it ethical! If you insist that a law be made for every possible ethical situation, you will have a nation full of laws to govern every tiny aspect of every person's existance, and the huge govt necessary to enforce all those laws. Try the Soviet Union, that was a pleasent place to live, wasn't it? In an ethical society people do what is right because it is right, and then millions of laws aren't necessary.

Naturally it is unethical, but you have already chosen to sell your integrity quite cheap in my opinion.

Weird replies, but I expected as much.

Anyway, as I said, we are talking about miles, not soviets, and not desperation. To talk of these things actually mattering on the scale of how I am, or someone is as a person is silly. If I am seen as 'selling out' because I am one of many who found out you can get some miles by mistake and chose to take them, then that is also very strange.

Oh well, I guess there are a lot of very scared people in here. Don't go get these miles then. I will instead (when it comes to pass my way), and since there will only be one of us doing it, they will not stop it and I will slowly earn more in your black and white world.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Actually MM, I think that it is you who live ina black and white world. No-one I have seen on this board has been against the return of a few tiles or the odd accident at University where they give you a cheque back when you paid by Credit Card.

The difference lies in when you INTENTIONALLY go out ot defraud someone. That is a different can of worms and is in my view not just being dishonest to the company you defraud but also the communtiy at large.

And as the headline on the top of the page says, this is "The worlds most popular Frequent Flyer COMMUNITY".

Like my teacher always said at school when he gave the whole class a detention, "There is always someone who spoils it for everyone"

Have I got the world's worst debit card? When I get cash back from the grocery store I get charged a fee, just as if I were using a foreign ATM.

No fee for cash back on checks, so logically there shouldn't be any for a debit card.

But what's logic got to do with it?

And back to the topic, yes I do think it's unethical. What we appear to be saying is it's not too unethical, so don't lose a lot of sleep over it.

It could be the grocery store policy rather than the bank's. You might want to find out, and then decide who deserves the title of "worst". http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

SO Bond Boy is saying that I am a bad guy because I let you all know that I wouldn't mind getting a few hundred miles when I buy something and return it, and they offer me cash afterwards.

I would rather focus on this one:

Big Lar tells us that the debit card used rips off fees from the account held (sounds like that bank is pretty unethical too, eh?)

Yet, all the while, I am the one perceived as runing "it" for everyone because why, I LIKED to get those few miles? Is that the kind of thing as to why Big Lar has those fees? Oh pullllease!

...And then others tell me I am desperate because this is over a just few miles-as if it is also bad to even be talking about collecting less than some large sum approved by the elite. Hmmm, is it "cool" or ethical to bash someone for the AMOUNT of miles he or she does?

(Opinion Place.com is also only about 150-300 miles and many use it)

You have others who think I am of some lower form of life because I return things to stores and find out stuff like this, and this action in itself may wreck THAT too.

oooohhhh --careful guys! I may go ahead and tell the Wall Street Journal about this one! Yeah, that's it, I am gonna single-handedly bring down the entire country's ability to accept returns on merchandise! Ha ha ha.

My goodness! Is there no one in here who thinks this thread is nuts, or am I the only one?!

I returned the item, got cash and learned this can get me miles so I suggested it can be done. So shoot me for thinking thoughts that the obvious thought police are hateful of! WOW! I guess the thought police rule the friendly forum that is for... everyone? Hmmm...

As for things being legal by the law, but not necessarily considered "ethical," Let me ask you all this one:

Is declaring bankruptcy ETHICAL (by a single person or by a business)?

It certainly is legal, but do you think it is ethical?

While you are preparing to answer just that one thing for me, ask yourself this too:

Is it ethical or moral to attack someone for having ideas and an open mind that knows there is not just black and white?

But please, let me know what you think about that bankruptcy question... I wanna know. I want to know if this is about attacking people or ideas? I have more entertainment for us all once I hear back on that one.

Thanks. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

Marathon, if just for once you would stop typing your typical knee-jerk marathon posts and carefully read the other posts in the thread, you will find that most here do not disagree all that much with what you are doing. Rather, the disagreement and objection is with the original poster who advocates intentionally purchasing merchandise to be returned for cash credit. That, IMHO, is morally and ethically wrong, as well as actionable both civillly and criminally.

[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 02-05-2003).]

This whole debate is really much ado about nothing.

I've found that almost univerally, merchants will refund based on how they were paid. This is PARTICULARLY true with expensive items. Getting 100 miles here or there won't make much difference in your FF balance or the merchant's wallet. Buying and returning to get cash/miles will also get very boring very quickly. You'll have to buy/return $100 worth of merchandise 250 times to get a US domestic ticket. Nobody is going to do that. Nobody is even going to do it 50 times to get 5000 miles. The whole idea is absurd.

If you really want to get miles for doing basically nothing, try eating out with friends while earning FF miles (and iDine miles) on your credit card. Pick up the tab and have your friends pay you cash for their parts of the bill. You'll get a lot more miles for a lot less effort.

[This message has been edited by xyzzy (edited 02-04-2003).]

CactusPete, I think you might need to edit that post http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

If I read the intent correctly, you are correct, I don't have a problem with MM collecting miles in this way as a result of everyday transactions that are not -intended- to defraud.

He said that, but I don't think that was what was intended. Sorry, BB, don't meant to speak for you, but if we go back and read all the posts, the only issue we have a problem with is -deliberatly- defrauding the store.

You need to see where the fee is coming from. if it's added to your purchase, then it's the store charging you, and it's out of your control. If it's added to your bank statement, then it's your bank and you need a new one.

This is a totally unrelated thing to the buy and return. ATM fees for the merchant are not based on the dollar amount, they pay the same thirty five or fifty cents (whatever their agreement is) if you use your card for a pack of gum, or you use it for a pack of gum and $200 in cash. You actually help them by reducing their cash they have to process.

Buying and returning something with a miles earning credit card forces the merchant to pay a service fee twice, which of course they will pass along to the rest of us.

As others have said, it's a moot point as they usually won't give you cash back for a credit card purchase, if they do it's usually against thhe terms they have with their merchant account, as most include lines like the following (from one I have)

You will not, under any circumstances, pay any card refund or adjustment to a cardholder in cash.

I have hundreds of inmates who asked a similar question before moving on to bigger and badder. It's a slippery slope, IMO.

In my own experiences with refunds, I too have been given cash when the original purchase was with a credit card. But in almost every case, it's a small amount, usually under $100.00. Almost all large purchases appear as a credit on my card. So how much can one significantly gain by doing this solely for the intent on gaining miles? It sounds like much more trouble than it's worth.

Integrity is always such an intersting topic. My .02 on this is that integrity is the foundation of your life. Little breaks in intgrity are just as bad as big ones. Think of the foundation of a bridge (the integrity of the bridge depends on its foundation). Would you really want to use that bridge if the foundation was shaky in the least?

Also, integrity is a very personal thing. My integrity can not be determined by anyone else. And, I can not decide what your integrity should be. If, however, I ever question whether or not something is in or out of integrity for me, it is probably out of integrity.

This thread is called: "Buy stuff and return... for miles?"

...which means my posts about Home Depot and cash back on my debit card that earns miles is in fact related to that topic. Yes, it does not talk about schools but it is the same issue category: Buy stuff and return... for miles.

The length of posts about it should have no bearing on the ethics or the topic. Mine are not so long, but they cover a lot of sides or examples of this issue.

As far as ATMs, though was originall brought up to show examples as to why cash back is good. I agree that any store or bank that charges fees is a no-no and because we are talking about cash back and costs of it, even this stuff about ATMs is somewhat related to the thread.

I used a debit card to do a purchase which essentially DOES allow cash back when you purchase. Apparently, it does the same when you make a return. Like I said, I would have taken the charge back to my card but when they let me have cash back upon returning my items, I took it. Who woudnt?

Why and how Home Depot or any other store like it decides to give cash or not is beyond me. That would be between them, the banks who issue cards, and Mastercard or Visa, not me. If I go in that store and charge "X" for $300 and then return $100 of it and they give me cash, that is great. If the first $300 charge gets me miles, that is great too. I reported this fact in this very relevant thread (but I find I should not have bothered to share such tips with some people). There are some circles who, upon learning this one "works," might have told me I would have been foolish to NOT use my miles-earning card when doing this--intentionally or not! These types say it is important to always use the miles earning cards for everything they do. Would I have been considered unethical if I had done the exact same thing and NOT earned any miles on that debit card? Please tell me.

I paid, I returned, I got cash back and it was also a good-found short cut to having to go visit one and pay fees for getting money out. HD could have said no and I would have been fine with this.

If I got miles for the debit card purchase and then returned things to the store, I would have normally expected the store to take the items back and put the above $100 (in this example) back onto my card. Then my statement would reflect a return and thus, minus miles. Fine.

BUT they chose to give me cash and I took it.

More recently, I used a miles-earning CREDIT card to pay for a hair cut. Ok, so it was only $15 but like I said, we use our miles-earning cards for nearly everything and they add up...

Anyway, I then said I would like to tip the guy $3 and the desk clerk asked me if I would like to put this on the card (I had no cash on me that moment). I said yes, assuming that at the end of the day, all his cuts would be totalled and he gets back tips left over. Instead, they GAVE me $3 cash right out of the register the minute my $18 charge went thru and then had me sign the $18 charge slip! I took the cash and I turned and gave to the hair stylist! I, in a sense, got 'cash back' on a credit card (not debit card) and got miles for it as well.

Did we alllll break some laws here and should we visit the jailer? (can you earn miles for things purchased while in prison?)

[Catolius Petus Maximus: thanks for your concern over my knee: I did hurt my knee a bit whilst skiing last weekend after being run into by a jerk (knee jerk) but it is better now. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif]



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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

Marathon Man, the fact that you protest so much probably means that you do have some internal conflict about what you are doing. Personally, I see no problem with what you are doing, but you seem to...

No, I have no problem with what I did or am doing. I do find problems with the fact that I seem to run into so many do-gooders who never see anything gray in this world and when it comes to ways to earn miles or discuss this.

Some call me unethical for knowing about this way to earn miles. I do not mind being called one thing or another, nor do I care what they think, but what bothers me is the persistence they all seem to have when it comes to trying to be so ethically perfect! I mean, they are not perfect, but they say they are by saying these actions are not up to some par. (Who's par? What par? ...and where the hell did I dine?)

Here's an offshoot:

When I was in college (a big state univ where you want to party as an 18-21 year old) there were always these types who were the "RA's" (resident assistants) who would love to bust you or try to bust you. They would go looking for people to bust for the very things they would also do too but not tell anybody about. These are the types who later turn into something like a rapist priest, ya know?

They were brown-nosing do-gooders who seemed to label people who were not acting as outwardly perfect as they said they were always being all of the time. Yeah, I was there to learn, but I also had a great time doing so. I think it was a great balance and I did not get in trouble but sure ran into some jerks who loved to deal it out!

I hated these types because they thrived on things like correcting your spelling in a simple, casual note (and not like a teacher does, checking if that GingerAle you were carrying was actually a beer, or being a back seat driver type who is a fink. These were the types you would hog-tie at the frat party that your friend who was a member was having everyone over to. We did this once and the fink we hated most finally quit the school. Everyone had a laugh and I am sure that person is now like the geek office worker who always worried about losing his stapler in the movie, OFFICE SPACE anyway.

In the end, I earned 2 degrees and have a nice life well after college but these people still exist out there in every form. They erk me and so I must respond! They are the ones who would give you a fee for some 3 month long rental charge that was 1 minute late on the last day, or love to witch-hunt and highlight the errors of others in order to make themselves feel better. They seem to be there to do nothing but try to STOP others from having fun or getting something back for the every day things in life.

That's all. Nothing serious. I actually have this conversation with old college friends all the time in laughter so not to worry. It is common and I will just go on being what I am being and not being worried about it. I have admitted my Achilels heel though and yet, I never thought I would even see this issue in the miles world--unless they work for the airlines ever-screwing us!
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!